Towing with an old Dodge - Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum
 
Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum  

Go Back   Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum > General Tech > Tow Rigs and Trailers
Notices

Reply
 
Share LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-08-2019, 04:32 PM   #1 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Member # 871482
Posts: 12
Towing with an old Dodge

Hey all, I've been a lurker for a long time, and decided to finally make an account to join the discussions and ask questions.

I have a 1997 4WD Ram 3500 2 door dually with the 5.9 Magnum V8, a 46RE trans (according to RockAuto) and a Dana 80 rear end.......with 3.55s (or 3.54s? seems to vary depending on where you get your info). Dodge's suggested towing capacity for the truck from 1997 is 9,200 lbs, but from what I can find on the MN DMV/DPS websites, dodge's suggested tow rating doesn't mean squat legally(?). The truck has a GVWR of 10,500 lbs, so from my understanding I could tow a trailer with a GVWR of approximately 15,499 lbs and still be legal/under class A license requirements as the total GVWR of the combination would be under 26,000 lbs. The truck is set up for pulling a gooseneck, and with the 25% approximate pin weight of a 15,499 lb gooseneck the truck would still be within its payload capacity (assuming truck weighs 5,000-6,000 lbs: 10,500 GVWR-6,000 truck weight=4,500 pounds left for tongue weight).

My question to those that have experience with this generation/era of truck is do you think the trans would survive very long? Maybe with an aftermarket finned pan and trans cooler? And do you think the 360 would be able to hold 4th going down the highway (at about 60MPH)? The truck is currently my daily driver and I've been thinking about picking up a used GN on craigslist to haul some junk with, and decided this would be a pretty good place to ask. I don't need to go fast, I just need to get there. Thanks for any input.

Edit: For full disclosure, the MN Department of Public Safety's website is where I'm getting my information. A 10,000 pound trailer limit is only referenced to when the total GVWR of the combination already exceeds 26,000 pounds.

"Class A — Any vehicle towing a unit of more than 10,000 pounds Gross Vehicle Weight Rating with a gross combination weight rating (truck plus trailer) over 26,000 pounds".
"Class B — A single-unit vehicle that is over 26,000 pounds Gross Vehicle Weight Rating".

If anyone knows of any MN specific regulations for trailer GVWR limits on a class D license please share.

Last edited by MultiDrive; 08-08-2019 at 08:19 PM.
MultiDrive is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-08-2019, 05:01 PM   #2 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Elwenil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Member # 41063
Posts: 17,301
GVWR is how much the truck can haul IN ADDITION to the actual weight of the vehicle. It has nothing to do with how much it can tow since that does not matter other than the fraction of the weight that is on the truck in the form of tongue weight. If the tow rating is 9,200 lbs, then that is how much you can legally tow, trailer and load combined.
__________________
1988 Dodge AW450 Ramcharger-318TBI-NP435-NP205-D60s
Odin Owns Ye All
Elwenil is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Old 08-08-2019, 05:08 PM   #3 (permalink)
Dinkerdoodledoo
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Member # 10448
Location: NH
Posts: 10,594
Send a message via Yahoo to Grendel
Sorry, any trailer over 10K in gross weight, unless a camper, puts you into commercial license territory.

As for your truck, you want to look at Gross Combined Vehicle Weight and then deduct the loaded weight of your truck to determine what your truck will handle... and then be sure it's within the weight rating of your trailer.
__________________
Quote:
Youre the only person on earth who knows all the details of your life, and thus, you are the most qualified captain of your own ship. Dont worry about justifying your course for pirate's sake. There's always someone here to tell you that you did it wrong.
Grendel is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-08-2019, 05:08 PM   #4 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Member # 871482
Posts: 12
I was under the impression that the manufacturer's tow rating means nothing legally, only that the combined GVWR of the truck and the trailer must be below 26,000 pounds and the axles on either are not overloaded. I understand the GVWR includes the weight of the vehicle. If the truck weighs 5500 pounds and the GVWR is 10,500 pounds then that allows for 5,000 pounds of payload. I was referencing the GVWR specifically for the purpose of tongue weight.

Edit: I never realized that Grendel, thanks. Also it seems dodge didn't publish a GCWR for their truck in 1997. But from what I've read from others on this site, the GCWR is not enforcable anyways, only the GVWR is.

Edit 2: Your state may differ from mine, if I'm understanding this correctly. From the MN department of public safety website: "Class A — Any vehicle towing a unit of more than 10,000 pounds Gross Vehicle Weight Rating with a gross combination weight rating (truck plus trailer) over 26,000 pounds."

I'm focusing on the "with" part, as that's the only information of a 10,000 pound trailer limit in MN I can find.

Last edited by MultiDrive; 08-08-2019 at 05:33 PM.
MultiDrive is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-08-2019, 05:16 PM   #5 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Elwenil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Member # 41063
Posts: 17,301
Quote:
Originally Posted by MultiDrive View Post
I was under the impression that the manufacturer's tow rating means nothing legally, only that the combined GVWR of the truck and the trailer must be below 26,000 pounds and the axles on either are not overloaded. I understand the GVWR includes the weight of the vehicle. If the truck weighs 5500 pounds and the GVWR is 10,500 pounds then that allows for 5,000 pounds of payload.

Edit: I never realized that Grendel, thanks. Also it seems dodge didn't publish a GCWR for their truck in 1997. But from what I've read from others on this site, the GCWR is not enforcable anyways, only the GVWR is
Well you have a good time with that argument when the DOT pulls you and scales you. There are a lot of hot-shotters that have run into that problem and found that yes, most states will bust your ass and impound your shit for being overweight.
__________________
1988 Dodge AW450 Ramcharger-318TBI-NP435-NP205-D60s
Odin Owns Ye All
Elwenil is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-08-2019, 05:18 PM   #6 (permalink)
Registered User
 
blue924.9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Member # 522689
Posts: 144
01 2500 with the 360. 4th with a trailer on the 3.55s hell no. 3rd if it's flat up to 29k combined [highest I've went] and 2nd on any hill. Acceleration is fairly ok as long as the foot feed is denting the floorboard . 29k killed the factory 113k factory trans. It now has a mildly upgraded trans and a cooler that covers half the radiator. The shop bypassed the trans cooler so it gets cardboard in the winter. Transmission has lived up to this point but I only haul 1 tractor now that I have another trailer. With a 360 your going to be unhappy with the power before the chassis when it comes to weight. Oh yeah and big fuckin cooler
blue924.9 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-08-2019, 05:19 PM   #7 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Member # 871482
Posts: 12
Not trying to argue. Just explaining my reasoning. Also not looking to be a hotshotter with my 2 decade old truck.....lmao
MultiDrive is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-08-2019, 05:20 PM   #8 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Member # 871482
Posts: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by blue924.9 View Post
01 2500 with the 360. 4th with a trailer on the 3.55s hell no. 3rd if it's flat up to 29k combined [highest I've went] and 2nd on any hill. Acceleration is fairly ok as long as the foot feed is denting the floorboard . 29k killed the factory 113k factory trans. It now has a mildly upgraded trans and a cooler that covers half the radiator. The shop bypassed the trans cooler so it gets cardboard in the winter. Transmission has lived up to this point but I only haul 1 tractor now that I have another trailer. With a 360 your going to be unhappy with the power before the chassis when it comes to weight. Oh yeah and big fuckin cooler
Thanks for the input, this was what I was looking for. I thought 4th would probably be out of the question haha.

Last edited by MultiDrive; 08-08-2019 at 05:22 PM.
MultiDrive is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-08-2019, 05:22 PM   #9 (permalink)
Rolling Mod
 
Beat95YJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Member # 22176
Location: Redondo Beach
Posts: 40,791
97 is old???
__________________
I can break a steel ball in a rubber room!

Companies helping me get dirty:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

& Blaine


:tank:
Beat95YJ is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-08-2019, 05:52 PM   #10 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Member # 871482
Posts: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beat95YJ View Post
97 is old???
It is when your truck is as beat up as mine
MultiDrive is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-08-2019, 06:29 PM   #11 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Member # 192237
Location: St. Paul, MN
Posts: 11,484
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beat95YJ View Post
97 is old???
up here 2010s have rust holes in frames
[486] is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-08-2019, 07:21 PM   #12 (permalink)
Rock God
 
DE Jeeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Member # 5295
Location: Wilmington, DE
Posts: 1,654
Quote:
Originally Posted by MultiDrive View Post
Edit: I never realized that Grendel, thanks. Also it seems dodge didn't publish a GCWR for their truck in 1997. But from what I've read from others on this site, the GCWR is not enforcable anyways, only the GVWR is.

Edit 2: Your state may differ from mine, if I'm understanding this correctly. From the MN department of public safety website: "Class A Any vehicle towing a unit of more than 10,000 pounds Gross Vehicle Weight Rating with a gross combination weight rating (truck plus trailer) over 26,000 pounds."

I'm focusing on the "with" part, as that's the only information of a 10,000 pound trailer limit in MN I can find.
Your state is the same as mine DE and u r correct both thresholds need to be met for u to need a cdl. Do not confuse cdl and dot requirements. If u use a 10k trailer for commercial use then u need a dot number for the truck and trailer. My state does make an exception. If the truck and trailer stay within the state u dont need a dot #.

Bottom line is u will be legal in your state and other states will honor their laws but it might require a call to your home state dmv.

As an example i own a regerstered goose at 14k and a sw 2500 dodge at 10k. As long as i stay under 24k combined i am 100% legal on my class c.
__________________
'88 YJ with not much '88 YJ left

We-Rock Stock Class
Team Mall Crawler #609

Sponsored by:
The Drive Shaft Shop
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Delaware Jeep Assoc.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
DE Jeeper is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-08-2019, 07:25 PM   #13 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Member # 871482
Posts: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by DE Jeeper View Post
Your state is the same as mine DE and u r correct both thresholds need to be met for u to need a cdl. Do not confuse cdl and dot requirements. If u use a 10k trailer for commercial use then u need a dot number for the truck and trailer. My state does make an exception. If the truck and trailer stay within the state u dont need a dot #.

Bottom line is u will be legal in your state and other states will honor their laws but it might require a call to your home state dmv.

As an example i own a regerstered goose at 14k and a sw 2500 dodge at 10k. As long as i stay under 24k combined i am 100% legal on my class c.
Thanks for the info, I was fairly sure that was the case
MultiDrive is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-08-2019, 07:39 PM   #14 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Member # 355210
Posts: 1,181
GVWR of 10,500 and tow rating of 9,200 means the GVWR is definitely less than 19,700. What's the truck weigh? Guessing 7k. If there was a GCWR, I'd bet it's around 16k. Those lame axle gears are gonna handicap it. For comparison, a 7.3 F350 DRW of that vintage is about 20k but that's with 4.10s.

Any trailer rated over 10k is DOT stuff in most if not all areas. Exclusions being agriculture tags, RVs, etc. I've hauled a LOT of stuff over 10k behind one-tons and never been bothered but I have accepted that I'll get popped one day and have to play dumb and hope not to pay dumb. Most trailer mfgs have trailer models rated for 9,999 lbs, even on a pair of 7k axles. Guess why. DOT cares once that rating hit 10k. Same reason U-Haul trucks are derated to 25,999 lbs.

BIG stacked plate transmission cooler and trans temp guage would be my first investment for your setup. A nice spin-on trans filter, too. If the fluid hasn't been changed regularly up till now, don't. That'd be a good way to wreck a trans. Instead, drop the pan, saving the old fluid, clean the pan, install a new filter, and refill with the old fluid. Put your spin-on filter on the hot discharge side of the trans. Every other oil change, fill a new trans filter with new fluid and swap it in until the fluid looks new. This will clean your trans gently and catch the gunk rather than all at once and letting it clog up a valvebody or cooler.

Swapping to 4.10s will revolutionize that truck's towing capability.

Last edited by mwilliamshs; 08-08-2019 at 07:41 PM.
mwilliamshs is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-08-2019, 08:26 PM   #15 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Member # 871482
Posts: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwilliamshs View Post
BIG stacked plate transmission cooler and trans temp guage would be my first investment for your setup. A nice spin-on trans filter, too. If the fluid hasn't been changed regularly up till now, don't. That'd be a good way to wreck a trans. Instead, drop the pan, saving the old fluid, clean the pan, install a new filter, and refill with the old fluid. Put your spin-on filter on the hot discharge side of the trans. Every other oil change, fill a new trans filter with new fluid and swap it in until the fluid looks new. This will clean your trans gently and catch the gunk rather than all at once and letting it clog up a valvebody or cooler.

Swapping to 4.10s will revolutionize that truck's towing capability.
Any recommendations as far as brands? 4.10s would be nice but the truck is and would still be empty most of the time on the road...not to mention the parts to swap over would probably cost more than the truck is worth! lol
MultiDrive is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-09-2019, 12:51 AM   #16 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Member # 355210
Posts: 1,181
Derale, Hughes, B&M, all those name brand, stacked plate coolers are good but i would probably just pick a no-name from ebay and test it with air before installing it. If it'll hold 100 psi of air for 10 minutes, it'll hold ATF.
Wix filter bases and filters are my go-to. Caterpillar filters are also EXCELLENT but $$$ for a consumable. B&M and AutoMeter or VDO make good guages.

A junkyard 4.10 axle is the way to make the swap, not gears and professional labor. A gear swap will also make life MUCH easier for the trans.

Last edited by mwilliamshs; 08-09-2019 at 12:52 AM.
mwilliamshs is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-09-2019, 04:05 AM   #17 (permalink)
Zeus of the Sluice
 
arse_sidewards's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Member # 256962
Location: People's Republic of Taxachusetts
Posts: 3,531
Quote:
Originally Posted by MultiDrive View Post
Any recommendations as far as brands? 4.10s would be nice but the truck is and would still be empty most of the time on the road...not to mention the parts to swap over would probably cost more than the truck is worth! lol
Go to the junkyard with a tape measure, find an A/C condenser you think you can fit, go home and buy the cheapest (quality doesn't matter since A/C condensers handle pressure far in excess of what your trans will put out) new (so it's not full of A/C lube) condenser for that year/make/model online, cut off the fittings it shipped with and slip on some compression to npt adapters and then plumb it like any other trans cooler. If your truck doesn't have A/C then just skip the measuring part and order a condenser for it.
arse_sidewards is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-09-2019, 05:47 AM   #18 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Member # 192237
Location: St. Paul, MN
Posts: 11,484
Quote:
Originally Posted by arse_sidewards View Post
Go to the junkyard with a tape measure, find an A/C condenser you think you can fit, go home and buy the cheapest (quality doesn't matter since A/C condensers handle pressure far in excess of what your trans will put out) new (so it's not full of A/C lube) condenser for that year/make/model online, cut off the fittings it shipped with and slip on some compression to npt adapters and then plumb it like any other trans cooler. If your truck doesn't have A/C then just skip the measuring part and order a condenser for it.
only an old one with full size tubes
many new condensers are too restrictive
[486] is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-09-2019, 05:59 AM   #19 (permalink)
DMG
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Member # 8145
Location: the Iron City
Posts: 14,485
Quote:
Originally Posted by arse_sidewards View Post
Go to the junkyard with a tape measure, find an A/C condenser you think you can fit, go home and buy the cheapest (quality doesn't matter since A/C condensers handle pressure far in excess of what your trans will put out) new (so it's not full of A/C lube) condenser for that year/make/model online, cut off the fittings it shipped with and slip on some compression to npt adapters and then plumb it like any other trans cooler. If your truck doesn't have A/C then just skip the measuring part and order a condenser for it.
Me and my friends thought we invented this trick when we were broke kids. Lol.
DMG is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-09-2019, 06:00 AM   #20 (permalink)
DMG
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Member # 8145
Location: the Iron City
Posts: 14,485
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beat95YJ View Post
97 is old???
Old enough to vote. Old enough to be rusted out anywhere that gets snow and salt.
DMG is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-09-2019, 06:02 AM   #21 (permalink)
Zeus of the Sluice
 
arse_sidewards's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Member # 256962
Location: People's Republic of Taxachusetts
Posts: 3,531
Quote:
Originally Posted by [486] View Post
only an old one with full size tubes
many new condensers are too restrictive
I've used this style just fine on my F150 (I used one for a 90s F150, example from a '17 Camry same style and tube sizes though)

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo...435531&jsn=891

Is there some other style of condenser I don't know about?
arse_sidewards is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-09-2019, 06:10 AM   #22 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Member # 192237
Location: St. Paul, MN
Posts: 11,484
Quote:
Originally Posted by arse_sidewards View Post
I've used this style just fine on my F150 (I used one for a 90s F150, example from a '17 Camry same style and tube sizes though)

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo...435531&jsn=891

Is there some other style of condenser I don't know about?
90s f150 has a lot more flow than '17 anything asian
later hondas especially are notorious for tiny condenser tubes that plug up
it is mostly to reduce both charge size, and static charge pressure by reducing high side volume to the bare minimum

also the ford might have 4 passes made from crimped end tubes in there, where the asian stuff will have 6 or more with those tiny tubes from dividers brazed in the end tanks, oh and that shit hanging off the side is a desicant dryer

source: I'm a jew that scavenges everything worthwhile that hits the scrap bin at work
[486] is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-09-2019, 06:59 AM   #23 (permalink)
Zeus of the Sluice
 
arse_sidewards's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Member # 256962
Location: People's Republic of Taxachusetts
Posts: 3,531
Here's what I actually used (different brand, same application)

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo...06075&jsn=1132

By "multiple passes" you mean something obstructing the end tank so the fluid has to go back across like in a heater core?
arse_sidewards is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-09-2019, 07:16 AM   #24 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Member # 192237
Location: St. Paul, MN
Posts: 11,484
Quote:
Originally Posted by arse_sidewards View Post
Here's what I actually used (different brand, same application)

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo...06075&jsn=1132

By "multiple passes" you mean something obstructing the end tank so the fluid has to go back across like in a heater core?
see right above the outlet fitting where there's a line across? there's a plate in the tank there

I like the '80s to '90s ford condensers for fluids, as they're actual large tubes instead of flattened tubes
a/c oil ain't no big deal. Flush it out with a half gallon of gasoline, be fine then

Last edited by [486]; 08-09-2019 at 07:18 AM.
[486] is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-09-2019, 07:20 AM   #25 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Member # 135683
Posts: 497
I cant give you any hard numbers since we havent had the one truck for about 6 years but we had 2 1994 rams and they had very different tow ratings, both were bought new.

truck#1. 2500 reg cab,4x4,V8,auto,4.10,8800 GVWR-8,400lb max bumper or 5th\goose
truck#2. 2500 reg cab,4x4,V10,auto,4.10,8800 GVWR-10,000 max bumper and 13,000 5th\goose
350TacoZilla is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

** A VERIFICATION EMAIL IS SENT TO THIS ADDRESS TO COMPLETE REGISTRATION!! **

Email Address:
Insurance
Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:43 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.