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Old 05-17-2007, 01:08 PM   #1 (permalink)
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08 f four hundred and fifty...can do it?

Got a situation w/ a customer/buddy. He bought a new 450 and it says you can laugh at 6000lbs payload.

He has a 4k lb cabover camper... sags it down 5".

Is that ok? It's bringing the front up and the back is way down past level he says.

I'm thinking ford had a standard issue ford style f-ck up w/ the springs. Maybe they put the wrong springs on by accident... maybe they undertested stuff. Maybe the camper is too assheavy.

in his 02- dodge dually he had the camper in the bed and bronco in tow and brought it all to my shop. the truck was pretty damn level w/ helper bags in the back. He sold the dodge because it was under rated for the payload and was a little sloppy on the road.

The ford seems worse so far he says. He hasn't even hooked up the trailer yet and it's damn near draggin ass.

If ford doesn't had a solution I'm going to put semi airbags in there somewhere. What's more than likey going to happen is a nasty 2 link w/ panhard and semi bags w/ no more leafs. I'd rather have it be ford's f-ck up and they fix it before I go through all this madness but I think it'll be a helluva cool deal when it's done.
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Old 05-17-2007, 01:24 PM   #2 (permalink)
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The way the numbers work is weird. 450 will pull more than the 550 (trailer load) while the 550 will haul more (in/on the bed).

I've seen this before on the 04 trucks. A set of standard issue Firestone air bags front and rear will put everything back where it is supposed to be. But, how cool would full air ride be?
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Old 05-17-2007, 01:31 PM   #3 (permalink)
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yea but since it's rated for what? 6100lb payload shouldn't it laugh at this cabover?
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Old 05-17-2007, 01:33 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Short answer, yes.
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Old 05-17-2007, 01:59 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Why doesn't he just take it in and see if they screwed up. Hell, the tags are probably still on the springs. They can just run the numbers and tell what they are for. If it's sagging that much it sounds like it got F250 springs in it.

How are the new Ford packs setup? One big pack or a set of regular springs and overloads like Dodges?
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Old 05-17-2007, 02:03 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Why doesn't he just take it in and see if they screwed up. Hell, the tags are probably still on the springs. They can just run the numbers and tell what they are for. If it's sagging that much it sounds like it got F250 springs in it.

How are the new Ford packs setup? One big pack or a set of regular springs and overloads like Dodges?
I haven't seen it yet. He's waiting on a call back from ford. The truck is brand brand new. Like the only miles on it are from the dealer to the place putting the camper on.

I believe it's like the dodge w/ over loads. My 1st guess was the 250 pack as well.... I guess it has over loads too.
Watch ford do it again.... recall- all springs on 08's are f-cked off.... 250's have 550 air ride lol and 450's have 150 packs F-ck it... slap another couple turbos on there and call it good
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Old 05-17-2007, 02:09 PM   #7 (permalink)
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haven't you seen the commercials....

ford claims to have increased the load capacity, and they did it by using longer springs....which is probably why it is sagging.

if the longer springs are stiff enough to carry a bigger load over a longer span (distance from mount to mount) it must ride worse than a buck board.
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Old 05-17-2007, 02:40 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Ford.... blah, blah blah blah- bblah blabhyablabbyla blah...
This is what I heard, much like when my Cousin (a ford Tech) starts talking about how quiet and quick the new 6.4 is... and I start thinking about well, my dodge and then whether or not I need to breathe...

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F-ck it... slap another couple turbos on there and call it good
This is where you got my attention! The truck definitely needs more turbo's. I think Four(d) would be enough. I mean it has to keep up with all the dodges that keep blowing it away!

A 4K slide in is really freakin heavy! I think any truck would need a set of air bags to handle that. Especially since it's going to have to be atleast a 10.5-11' camper with multiple slides (rear?) which leaves a bunch of weight well past the rear bumper. I'd use helper bags and be done.
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Old 05-17-2007, 04:20 PM   #9 (permalink)
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This is what I heard, much like when my Cousin (a ford Tech) starts talking about how quiet and quick the new 6.4 is... and I start thinking about well, my dodge and then whether or not I need to breathe...



This is where you got my attention! The truck definitely needs more turbo's. I think Four(d) would be enough. I mean it has to keep up with all the dodges that keep blowing it away!

A 4K slide in is really freakin heavy! I think any truck would need a set of air bags to handle that. Especially since it's going to have to be atleast a 10.5-11' camper with multiple slides (rear?) which leaves a bunch of weight well past the rear bumper. I'd use helper bags and be done.

there's the prob. he doesn't want to use the regular helpers as they've blown up on him before. He wants 5500lb each bags that are 14" wide..... no room for that and if I mount them inboard.... well won't do anything but lift it unsafely. So if this doesn't get resolved at ford it's going to get linked and bagged to be safe I guess. maybe a parallel 4 w/ panhard.... damnit ford.
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Old 05-17-2007, 06:21 PM   #10 (permalink)
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doesnt the 450 pickup have 3 leaf packs with a 4th overload on the bottom and another on the top of the pack that is just off the rubber bumpers at ride height?
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Old 05-17-2007, 06:26 PM   #11 (permalink)
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My neighbor had an 2008 F-450 sitting in his driveway now. If you want me to go look at the spring packs and get #'s or amount of leafs of it I can. Let me know.
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Old 05-17-2007, 11:47 PM   #12 (permalink)
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nope... it's fired... 4 link w/ panhard and semi air bags. all 2" 2.50 dom w/ 1.25" heims including that of the panhard! wooo wooo bling bling Viair OBA w/ 5 gal tank. How's that donkey kong saying go? Pics to come
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Old 05-18-2007, 05:50 AM   #13 (permalink)
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just get the pics rolling in when you get started... nothing's cooler than cutting up a brand new ($$$$) truck
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Old 05-19-2007, 07:31 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Pics! We need pics.. Anyone with enough balls to cut up a new truck like that, especially while still under warranty.. gets my respect.
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Old 05-19-2007, 08:27 PM   #15 (permalink)
 
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Pics would be good! I don't know why Ford wouldn't have put the 450's on air-ride anyway. Probably because of cost.
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Old 05-19-2007, 10:38 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Well Guys this F-450 under discussion here belongs to me--- Sadly. I bought this new Ford for the pure and simple reason that I needed that Payload and Towing capacity. The camper I am using is a brand new 2008 Lance 1181. It does have one slide out and extends past the bed about 38", weight for this camper on the scales with 20 gals of water and both propane tanks full is 4,029 lbs. This new Ford should haul this load and laugh at the thing, but after the camper was loaded the rear of the truck sagged 5". This 5 " to most folks would be OK but what it does in reality is unload the front end real bad thus changing everything about the truck. The headlights point up, the front brakeing is a joke and you never felt anything with steering this light, it is a joke plan and simple. Now to this mess I am going to add my Bronco trailer that not only hauls the Bronco but also my 19'6" Bass Boat. I realize I am asking a lot from any truck but I paid $62,000 to be able to do that. Sillyneck my little fabricating buddy has a plan though and it will be interesting to see it devolope here, maybe we can make a real truck out of this F-450 after all. God I hope so.

Heres a couple of pics of all of this stuff. The Rubicon I replaced with the Bronco and in that picture with the camper loaded on the Ram I had the air bags pumped up to almost twice the rated capacity and I did blow one of the bags at the next corner I turned at after this picture.

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Old 05-20-2007, 12:41 AM   #17 (permalink)
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well put gunny. 22k lbs total payload available w/ the bags I'm using. Not sure how the rest of the truck would feel about 22k in the bed... but the amount of over kill I've figured in to my work... we'll have this thing hooked up to a semi trailer sooner than later lol
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Old 05-20-2007, 02:09 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Does the boat platform raise and lower straight up and down like a four post hydraulic lift or does it angle back like a ramp? Thats a really cool setup, I've never really see something like that before. I'm guessing totally custom?
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Old 05-20-2007, 06:25 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Now I know we havent heard the entire story, What exactly did ford say?

I would think if that camper realy sat that truck down like you say and with as few miles and being absolutly brand new that you could go back to ford and figure something out. Hell put 6K in the bed and see what hapends. Do it right there at the lot???? Just thinking out load.

Spending 62K on a truck like that and then handling as poorly as you say?? THEN going to cut the hell outa the truck voiding every waranty ford can think of???

Good luck with your new truck. I honestly mean that, It could definatly work out cool. But I would think you could get into a totaly different class of truck with the money your spending. I mean a TRUCK not a pickup truck.

I saw first hand what a BRAND new F-450 can do in moab this year. He was hauling an extended camper and pulling a jeep behind it. It was not quite as heavy as you are but still, not too far off. that thing pulled it all like a dream! every component on that truck was just plain massive.

Something tells me there is just something not right with your truck.
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Old 05-20-2007, 04:11 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I agree something is not right with that truck. I have a Gooseneck on an 04 F-350. I have had some pretty heavy pin weights on that thing at times, and I haven't sagged as much as what you are describing.
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Old 05-20-2007, 05:55 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Hows this for a comparison. 1/2 ton truck w/ 2500lb overload springs, which makes for about 5,000lbs of capacity before I hit the bumpstops.

I've had 4,000lbs of wood in the bed before, it dropped about 4" and still had 1-2" before the bumpstops. (I've seen 1 ton duallies drop less than that.) The front end was not even light.

I can't imagine why an F450 would drop more than that. I'de love to hear what the dealer said.




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Old 05-20-2007, 06:53 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Ive had 3 tons of sand in the bed of my 2000 350 before, it sagged probably about 5 inches, (guess didnt measure), but the front end was definetely not light at all
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Old 05-20-2007, 10:37 PM   #23 (permalink)
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OK Guys I will answer, or try, a few of your questions.

Flexy-- Yea the boat platform is "Hydraulic" and raises and lowers to launch the boat. It is in fact a custom trailer, I designed it and had it built in Paxton Nebraska.

B-Rock--bhaugen--, I had a Ford engineer from Ford come and look at this truck, we loaded the camper with him there so that he could see the problem. He measured and looked and measured some more. We then took the truck with the camper on board to the scales and weighed and measured some more. We then drove the truck to the local dealer ( Bob Lynch Ford in Gilroy) were we unloaded the camper from my truck and loaded it on the only 2008 F-450 they had in stock. It sagged that F-450 5 1/4" measured from the bottom of the class 5 hitch to the ground. The Ford guy then using portable scales weighed and measured a little more. He weighed the Truck with the camper and then without the camper. I mentioned the unloading of the front suspension and he measured that as well. The loading of the camper unloads the front suspension 428 lbs and guys that is enougfh to DAMN sure make the steering light no matter what results YOU have gotten.

A finale note Ford is and was very concerned with my problem. They have spent a ton of money on the new F-450 Platform, and need not only for this to be a success, but a big success. This was told to me by a representative of Ford setting right here in my living room TODAY. He also told me that they believe that my problem is "probably" no problem at all. The truck is not on the bump stops and not even close, it is on the overloads. But with that said ford has made me a couple of very cool offers. One is a trade back or buy back of the truck since it only has 468 miles on it. I turned both of those down. The trade back he offered if I purchase another truck from Ford. I could do this there are two other big Fords out there. The F-550 is one option it comes with Air Ride suspension ( wonder why??) and has a paylload of 18,000 lbs becuase of that air suspension the frame on the F-550 is similiar to the F-450 and up until 2008 they were the same. But the F-550 can only be ordered as a Cab and Chassis is sold and registered as a uncomplete or partialy built truck. It then must go to a conversion shop for paint and a bed and finale fitting. Time wise this is not good. If I order it today Ford needs 12 to 14 weeks to deliver the cab and chassis. The conversion shop then needs 6 to 7 months more to deliver the truck to me. And I loose a lot of my stuff from the F-450, I loose the 4X4-- The King Ranch Interior and about 6 other options that are on my F-450 and not offered at all on the F-550. And for the honor of doing this that new F-550 will cost me $107,997.00. The other Ford I could go to is the F-650 this is one cool truck. I can get it with a Cummins or for an extra $8,650.00 a 300HP Cat engine time wise almost the same as the F-550 but maybe 20 to 22 weeks from Ford, conversion shops dont care which as far as time is concerned. The F-650 also offers some serious size or height problems as the empty unloaded truck from the ground to the top of the cab is 9'7" tall, add to that my camper and there may not be a overpass in the country it will go under. Cost wise a cool $125,000 plus options.

I could just use this truck like it is and drag my butt everywhere I go. I see people doing this all of the time. For me its not good enough and I've got the damn money and the best fabricator on the Planet as far as I am concerned. Phil at Sillyfab is not only the best fabricator but he also is my friend and I have complete conffidence that he can do anything he says he can, ANYTHING!! And besides just how often do you get the chance to cut up a brand new truck?

Gunny
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Old 05-21-2007, 06:51 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Gunny since it is going to cost you so much to go with the 550 I would just get the air bags.

As for the truck, it is really weird that it drags ass holding 4000lbs. My father had a GMC 3500HD which is about the same as the F450. He put 5000lbs of pipe in the back of that truck and it only went down 2.5 inchs. He already had over a ton on the truck before the pipe too. So in the end he had 7000lbs on the back on this truck and it was sitting level.

And my buddy has put 4k in the back for his 350 and it didnt look as bad as you are talking about.


Their has to be something wrong with the truck, but since it is going to cost you so much to get another truck I would air bag it and call it a day.
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Old 05-21-2007, 06:53 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Read my sig. I pull with some pretty significant pin weights as well.
Gunny, I think there are a few things going on to cause the problem you're having.
I don't think just bagging it is going to fix the problem, only mask it. The biggest peice of the problem really isn't the weight, it's where the weight is. You've got a good portion of the weight aft of the rear axle. Bagging it will raise the rear, but your weight will still be aft of the rear axle, so your front end will still be light. My advice is to ditch the bed, and move the rear axle back as far as you can. This will move the genter of gravity forward, so that some of the weight is carried by the front axle. I know that going bedless will further injure the looks of the ford, but you can fix that by looking into some of the low profile tool beds from knaphiede or one of the other utility be manufacturers. That'll fill in the cuts in the side of the camper, provide a bunch of extra lockable storage area,and make room under the truck for either bigger water/sewage tanks, or larger fuel tanks. You could fit a set of 50 gallon saddle tanks on board, It would look great, and you could plan your fuel stops more efficiently.
Just my thoughts.
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