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Old 12-14-2009, 11:56 PM   #1 (permalink)
CJ
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Air Brake Trailer behind a hydraulic brake truck?

I have a good friend that built a self loading log trailer with air brakes and has a new superduty all set up to haul it. He sent the truck to a shop in So Cal some ware to have a hydraulic to air set up put on the truck to run the trailer brakes. The truck has been there for quite some time and they have now told him they can not do what he wants done.

Does any one have any thought of how or where this can be done?

Thanks a bunch, my wood pile is getting small and with winter storms on the way there will be a bunch of wood to be brought home soon enough
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Old 12-15-2009, 03:41 AM   #2 (permalink)
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First off.....are you talking about vacuum brakes which are kind of a dying technology or actual air brake that you find on a over the road semi???

If he is using actual air brakes.....I have never heard of such a creation and I am a ASE certified class 8 truck tech. If he built the trailer why on earth did he put air brake axles under it instead of electric, vacuum or hydraulic brakes???

He's going to have to build a on board air system with a good size tank as it will have to have the volume to charge the trailers on board tank thru the red line before it's spring brakes will release.

As far as the service brakes go, there is no way to tie into the trucks hydraulic brake system to control variable air pressure thru the blue line to sync the trailers service brakes with the trucks hydraulic brakes.

The closest thing he could do is rig up a steering column mounted trailer hand brake valve found on semi tractors used to control the trailers service brakes independtly from the tractor in the event jack knife situations. It would allow him to have variable control over the application pressure of the trailers service brakes but would be a constant pain in the ass using it.....especially if his truck is a standard shift.

Before he attempts such a feat, he better contact a DOT officer and verify that this setup is LEGAL......we live in a lawsuit happy society now days that could have a hayday with him in the event of an accident that was his fault and the officer investigating the crash stumbles upon his home brewed braking system.
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Old 12-15-2009, 06:30 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Easy there, thanks for the info I am not trying to go out and ruin the lives of innocent women and children
The truck is hydro assist not vac assist but that does not really matter.
Yes the trailer has s cam brakes and the truck has the compressor and tanks to make it work just needs to some how sync the brakes together, and it needs to be done correct as you said thats why I asked for some help finding out.

I really have no idea why he did what he did but just trying to help out a friend

Thanks for the input

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Originally Posted by psycoticredneck View Post
First off.....are you talking about vacuum brakes which are kind of a dying technology or actual air brake that you find on a over the road semi???

If he is using actual air brakes.....I have never heard of such a creation and I am a ASE certified class 8 truck tech. If he built the trailer why on earth did he put air brake axles under it instead of electric, vacuum or hydraulic brakes???

He's going to have to build a on board air system with a good size tank as it will have to have the volume to charge the trailers on board tank thru the red line before it's spring brakes will release.

As far as the service brakes go, there is no way to tie into the trucks hydraulic brake system to control variable air pressure thru the blue line to sync the trailers service brakes with the trucks hydraulic brakes.

The closest thing he could do is rig up a steering column mounted trailer hand brake valve found on semi tractors used to control the trailers service brakes independtly from the tractor in the event jack knife situations. It would allow him to have variable control over the application pressure of the trailers service brakes but would be a constant pain in the ass using it.....especially if his truck is a standard shift.

Before he attempts such a feat, he better contact a DOT officer and verify that this setup is LEGAL......we live in a lawsuit happy society now days that could have a hayday with him in the event of an accident that was his fault and the officer investigating the crash stumbles upon his home brewed braking system.
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Old 12-15-2009, 06:44 AM   #4 (permalink)
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use an electronic brake controller to move the rod on the brake chambers?
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Old 12-15-2009, 07:23 AM   #5 (permalink)
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The only thing I can come up with is to make a dual-lever brake pedal. One to the stock master cylinder, the other to an air brake valve. This will be extremely complex to route all the air lines and such, but it can be doable.

I am curious what kind of compressor system he is running. On a regular rig, the huge engine-driven compressors still take a few minutes to fill the air tanks and run near-constantly in traffic (they will turn off on the highway, though).
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Old 12-15-2009, 09:06 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Matt

beats me.... the only thing that jumps in my mind would be using a steering columne (sp?) mounted trailer brake lever that you find in some semi rigs (it lets you engage the trailer brakes without using the semis service brakes) ... but still i would not know how to tie that properly into the trailer brake lines

however, im not an expert..... may log in over at Escapees (the HDT section) there are a couple guys that i consider experts in difficult rigging (look for guys like "J.W.Morgan" aka pipeline mechanic and "hjsdds" ) here is the link http://www.rvnetwork.com/
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Old 12-15-2009, 09:04 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Needs to get a REAL truck that has an air brake system to correctly operate the air brakes on that trailer.
Not a well thought out plan at all.
Should be able to find cabover semi tractors that are road worthy for $4000.00 or so.
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Old 12-15-2009, 09:27 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Yank the axles and throw some electric ones under it.
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Old 12-16-2009, 12:49 AM   #9 (permalink)
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CJ,

I wasn't trying to bust your balls or insinuate the object of this was trying to kill a bus load of nuns and orphaned children......it's just the whole concept of what he's trying to do escapes me on the practicality level.

Yea I know the Superduty has hydroboost brakes instead of conventional vacuum boost, I've got a 07 F-350 with a PSD.

Regardless of which it would have there is no way to use fluid pressure to regulate compressed air pressure to control the s-cam brakes.

The only way i could figure to do this was using a steering column mounted trailer service valve like i previously mentioned.

The thing that hits me hard on the practicality issue is the cost of everything he's going to need to cob this mess together. Compressor, air governor, lines, valves, tanks, nylon line strung everywhere, an air dryer if he plans on using this trailer in cold temperatures. How much did he shell out to the shop that had it for a month for them to just scratch they're heads and tell him to come get it.

Surely it would be cheaper by far to get a set of 10,000lb dually trailer axles with electric brakes to put under this trailer that will run off a standard electric brake controller. Do you have any pictures of this homebrew trailer so we can see what we're brainstorming over.....and what is the estimated weight of it and how much he plans on hauling on it???

As far as the legality issues i mentioned, he needs to make sure Johnny Law is going either give the thumbs up on this or brand it as unsafe as the two brake systems would have to be independently controlled. I'm not saying it couldn't be safely operated, but if he got involved in an accident regardless of whose fault it was he could be in for a boat load of problems if he doesn't make a couple phone calls to get the blessing of DOT to say it's fine for public road use. First rule of life expecially when venturing into unfamiler circumstances.......COVER YOUR ASS!! I don't think DOT would care one way or another that the truck is hydraulic and trailer is air....I just fear they might have an issue with the independent controls to get both working at the same time.
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Old 12-16-2009, 06:30 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Thanks for the help. like I said I have no idea why he made but I am sure it has something to do with the self loading truck he used to have and sold. I never looked under it if it had air brakes or not but I bet it did. It was just a big yellow truck in the yard that was as far as the kids were allowed to go.

I would not even mention the steering column idea sounds like too much of a death ride with a load of logs and shifting gears.

The shop that has the truck said they could make it work, and was going to do all the air lines and the compressor. I do not know how far they got before they gave up but they have had it for much more than a month. My friend is much more patient than me.

For those that mentioned elect axles I was already thinking to my self that would be the safest and easiest option.

Thanks For the help
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Old 01-31-2010, 02:48 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Just to follow up what is being done, with DOT approval by a company in Oregon that has done this several times already.

A factory air compressor and brackets for a F-650 was put on the motor and a second pedal arm was attached to the factory brake pedal and a sensitivity control was added so more or less brakes could be applied to the trailer depending on the load.

He should have the truck back in a few weeks.
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Old 07-14-2013, 12:25 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Old post but here goes...
Anyone know of the Oregon companies name?
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Old 07-14-2013, 03:21 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Hydraulic truck and air trailer brake is a common combination in Europe, where a Trailer over 7k lbs has to have air brakes.
There's usually a big ass electrical air compressor mounted in the truck feeding the trailers air tanks and sometimes even the trailers air suspension. There are 2 ways to sync the brakes between trailer and truck. One is by using pressure valve in the brake line that senses the hydraulic pressure and opens the air brake line accordingly. The second way is to tie into the anti-lock brake computer of the truck using the CAN BUS data on newer trucks.

The tow company I worked for had 1 ton quad cab Sprinter truck set up with a 5wheel coupling towing a 2 car trailer with air brakes, worked flawlessly.
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Old 07-14-2013, 03:44 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Here in the states you would have to order some of those special parts from Europe OR go to a industrial suppler to find Some kind of variable air valve that is electrically controlled that you can hook to the brake controller in the pickup.

Any industrial valve you use would have to include another valve or another port that is normally open and closes when brakes are applied so that the air will dump to atmosphere after you let off the brake pedal.
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Old 07-14-2013, 09:26 PM   #15 (permalink)
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All the air-brake International buses I've driven have a hanging brake pedal that could be rigged up under the dash like CJ described, although I think that's pretty silly.
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Old 07-14-2013, 10:15 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ View Post
I have a good friend that built a self loading log trailer with air brakes and has a new superduty all set up to haul it. He sent the truck to a shop in So Cal some ware to have a hydraulic to air set up put on the truck to run the trailer brakes. The truck has been there for quite some time and they have now told him they can not do what he wants done.

Does any one have any thought of how or where this can be done?

Thanks a bunch, my wood pile is getting small and with winter storms on the way there will be a bunch of wood to be brought home soon enough
i have seen a couple of dodges that have some sort of air braks setup on them one early like 89 dulley and a later one i want to say 99 model maybe 97
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Old 07-14-2013, 10:44 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I've been doing a web search for "electric or hydraulic over air controller" and haven't come up with anything. Anyone know the name of that Oregon conversion company?
My other option is to swap out the two 20k air axles for 15k electric ones but they are pricey and don't perform well.
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