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Old 03-05-2019, 04:18 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Exclamation Return of the Formula Toy class in WE Rock

Hello F-toy people, my name is Aaron Armstrong I have been helping Big Rich Klein with WE Rock events in Bagdad AZ for 2 years now competing for 5 years in my 84 Toyota 4runner. This last week over some dinner i asked Big Rich if he would ever consider changing the rules to the F-Toy class to help with bringing the class back. he asked me what i wanted to change and here is what i have come up with, all you F-Toy guys let me know what you think i would like to come out with a F-Toy class in 2020 WE Rock round 1 in Bagdad AZ next march so everyone can get ready.

WE Rock Rules modified

7.1 Axles
7.1.1: Front axle must be from 1979 - 1985 Toyota Pickup or 4Runner
7.1.2: Aftermarket/custom housings are allowed, in any width
7.1.3: Aftermarket Birfields allowed, including upsizing spline count
7.1.4: Aftermarket inner axles allowed, including upsizing spline count
7.1.5: Must use Toyota third members
7.1.6: Any factory or aftermarket ring & pinion gear sets can be used in front or rear axle
7.1.7: Must use Toyota steering knuckles, or aftermarket yes any Toyota steering knuckle.
7.1.8: Differential shaving allowed
7.1.9: Trussing and diff armored allowed
7.1.10: Birfield eliminator kits not allowed must use Birfields.
7.1.11: Rear axle must be from a Toyota any Toyota.
7.1.12: Any Toyota third member allowed (stock Toyota or aftermarket)

7.2 Cage / Chassis / Body
7.2.1: Safety cage built by an approved vendor
7.2.3: Frame must be Toyota Pickup, 4Runner or tacoma frame, 2wd or 4wd

7.3 Engine
7.3.1: ANY Toyota engine is allowed
7.3.2: Propane, EFI, or Carb allowed
7.3.9: Radiator must mount in front of engine
7.3.10: Electric fans allowed
7.3.11: Engine can be moved back 0"- 8" from stock
7.3.12: Engine can be moved down 0"-1" from stock

7.4 Frame
7.4.1: The frame can be stripped of all cab mounts and brackets but must have a minimum of 3 cross members including one in the very front and one in the very rear.
7.4.2: The frame length can be shortened in the rear only. The total frame length must not be less than the length of the chassis.

7.5 Steering
7.5.1: Any manual or power steering box.
7.5.2: Box must be attached to main frame rail
7.5.3: Drag link must attach to pitman arm on steering box
7.5.4: Ram assist steering is allowed
7.5.5: Any aftermarket high/cross over steer kit allowed, provided both tie-rod and draglink remain in front of axle
7.5.6: Steering must attach to stock steering arm location using the stock method (4 fasteners in stock pattern)

7.6 Transmission /Transfer case
7.6.1: Any Toyota makes or models manual or automatic transmission
7.6.2: Any Toyota gear driven mini truck case or combination of cases
7.6.3: Any manufactures gear set.
7.6.4: Any gear ratio
7.6.5: Dual case adapter must be commercially available
7.6.6: Any commercially available output shaft is allowed.

Soooo pretty much the same but different, some guys will go all gangster with motor and shit, big tundra 3rds but now we have options in a class that is probably one of the 1st "Rock Buggy" classes out there. So look it over let me know what you all think and if we have 5 or more we can have a class in WE Rock.
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Old 03-05-2019, 06:11 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Only problem I see is most people who still have an f-toy have modified with different axles and Hydro steering. I know mine wouldn’t pass the rules because of that. Wish we still had a f-toy class though!!


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Old 03-05-2019, 06:19 PM   #3 (permalink)
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the same but different, some guys will go all gangster with motor and shit, big tundra 3rds but now we have options in a class
Maybe for the rear? Per rules, youre still limted to an 8" front with 30 spline axles. So tundra 3rds seems pointless. Unless you mean 9.5 and not 10.5.
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Old 03-06-2019, 07:30 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Is there a reason to limit to solid axle front only? I would guess it's the best option for performance, but if someone wanted to build a 3rd gen 4Runner for cheap and just swap in an 8" clamshell and 30 spline axles from a 4th/5th gen and go play - should they be restricted?

I think a 3rd gen 4Runner is currently the cheapest possible build other than maybe a really cheap FJ80, but the FJ80 would not qualify either. Should it? I think the idea of F-toy was that the solid axle older minitrucks were ubiquitous, cheap, and made a great base vehicle without spending huge money. Those days are over as far as I can tell. I can't find one for under about $5k, and those are few and far between. I can buy 3rd gen 4Runners 4x4 for $2k all day long. Seems like maybe the rules should also be updated to allow the current version of the dirt cheap base vehicle.

The one possible negative of that is that the 8" 30 spline IFS is stronger than the solid axles in the rule. The birfields are the same size as a D60 joint, so maybe they'd have an advantage in that respect. But you'd still have IFS - so it should still be a big disadvantage on travel/flex/etc.

Just a thought from someone who doesn't own an F-Toy, but might be interested in building a cheap throw away crawler to go have fun in a less $$$ competitive class.
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Old 03-06-2019, 10:15 AM   #5 (permalink)
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I think the biggest problem you will see is that there are not that many Ftoys around that haven't been linked, cut up, or engine swapped. We kept ours comp legal with hopes that it would come back, but haven't seen it in almost 10 years. The Delta Classic event in Delta Utah still has an ftoy class (which is now a WeRock event). I believe the rules will have to be opened up a little more to "include" some of the still existing ftoys. Ie, links, full hydro, any engine. This will take away from the original spirit of the class, but may bring more competitors in. However, these rule changes have already been addressed with the Sportsman class.
We finally bit the bullet and tore 092 apart to build a promod, so if anyone is in the market for a slightly used, championship winning chassis, I may know where one is.
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Old 03-06-2019, 10:28 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Any suspension changes? Old rules used to say leaf springs only and no air bumps. Rear springs could be inboarded.
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Old 03-06-2019, 02:25 PM   #7 (permalink)
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A thought I've seen mentioned in other places (maybe the KOH FToy Thread) was a "Pick X from Y"

Like...
Full Hydro
Links
Air Bumps

You can run 2 out of 3, but not all 3.

I've kept mine close to legal, but going full hydro on leafs with rebuildable shocks. Front tubework has also been changed in style.

So certainly a big question of how much spirit of the rules to keep.
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Old 03-07-2019, 07:08 AM   #8 (permalink)
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No suspension changes leaf springs I believe make the F-toy class if we went links it wouldn't be an F-toy it would be essentially a pro mod rig
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Old 03-07-2019, 07:12 AM   #9 (permalink)
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7.5 Steering
7.5.1: Any manual or power steering box.
7.5.2: Box must be attached to main frame rail
7.5.3: Drag link must attach to pitman arm on steering box
7.5.4: Ram assist steering is allowed
7.5.5: Any aftermarket high/cross over steer kit allowed, provided both tie-rod and draglink remain in front of axle
7.5.6: Steering must attach to stock steering arm location using the stock method (4 fasteners in stock pattern)


Is it worth changing this to "ANY STEERING" ? I just feel if we go any steering someone would go crazy and build an F-toy on Jesse Hanes portals and get all crazy, cuz jesse runs Toyota 3rd's and fabricated Toyota housings with a "birfield style CV" on his unlimited rig.
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Old 03-07-2019, 07:19 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4thrunr View Post
7.5 Steering
7.5.1: Any manual or power steering box.
7.5.2: Box must be attached to main frame rail
7.5.3: Drag link must attach to pitman arm on steering box
7.5.4: Ram assist steering is allowed
7.5.5: Any aftermarket high/cross over steer kit allowed, provided both tie-rod and draglink remain in front of axle
7.5.6: Steering must attach to stock steering arm location using the stock method (4 fasteners in stock pattern)


Is it worth changing this to "ANY STEERING" ? I just feel if we go any steering someone would go crazy and build an F-toy on Jesse Hanes portals and get all crazy, cuz jesse runs Toyota 3rd's and fabricated Toyota housings with a "birfield style CV" on his unlimited rig.
Limit it to stock style bells and knuckles.
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Old 03-07-2019, 10:14 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4thrunr View Post
No suspension changes leaf springs I believe make the F-toy class if we went links it wouldn't be an F-toy it would be essentially a pro mod rig
I think it would be "neat" to allow the 3rd gen runners and thus IFS front and linked rear, but maybe for those models only. Maybe regulate that the frame would determine what suspension it would be allowed to have, with the stipulation that it could only go "back" in design to the earlier leaf sprung solid front IF the rear was also changed to leaf as well. Or something like that.
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Old 03-07-2019, 10:19 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 4thrunr View Post
7.5 Steering
7.5.1: Any manual or power steering box.
7.5.2: Box must be attached to main frame rail
7.5.3: Drag link must attach to pitman arm on steering box
7.5.4: Ram assist steering is allowed
7.5.5: Any aftermarket high/cross over steer kit allowed, provided both tie-rod and draglink remain in front of axle
7.5.6: Steering must attach to stock steering arm location using the stock method (4 fasteners in stock pattern)


Is it worth changing this to "ANY STEERING" ? I just feel if we go any steering someone would go crazy and build an F-toy on Jesse Hanes portals and get all crazy, cuz jesse runs Toyota 3rd's and fabricated Toyota housings with a "birfield style CV" on his unlimited rig.
There is nothing in these rules that would prevent Jesse’s axles from running. He has drag link steering on the Roxor.
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Old 03-07-2019, 11:42 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of the class. It was a lot of fun to run in. BUT, I don't think there are that many class spec rigs left. Since the class went away and was essentially replaced by Sportsman, most people have upgraded to links, full hydro, and bigger engine/axles.
The problem I see is getting legal rigs there to compete. Since there needs to be at least 3 at an event to make a class (might be 4), I think the rules will have to be stretched a bit to allow what is out there.
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Old 03-07-2019, 01:41 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by maveric View Post
Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of the class. It was a lot of fun to run in. BUT, I don't think there are that many class spec rigs left. Since the class went away and was essentially replaced by Sportsman, most people have upgraded to links, full hydro, and bigger engine/axles.
The problem I see is getting legal rigs there to compete. Since there needs to be at least 3 at an event to make a class (might be 4), I think the rules will have to be stretched a bit to allow what is out there.
Yup. I was trying to skim thru the WeRock rules earlier, but at work. What's the gist of Sportsman A and C? And where would past/existing FToy rules slot them in?

Realistically, suspension, no front dig and steering angle are what makes the "restrictiveness" for what FToys can do in a comp setting. More power and similar changes aren't going to make or break the playing field.

Last edited by Saluki ATO; 03-07-2019 at 01:42 PM.
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Old 03-07-2019, 01:42 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I also think the IFS with 4link would be cool it would just have to have an F-Toy chassis on it and SEND IT!!!!!!!!!!

Last edited by 4thrunr; 03-07-2019 at 01:43 PM.
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Old 03-07-2019, 01:50 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Yup. I was trying to skim thru the WeRock rules earlier, but at work. What's the gist of Sportsman A and C? And where would past/existing FToy rules slot them in?

Realistically, suspension, no front dig and steering angle are what makes the "restrictiveness" for what FToys can do in a comp setting. More power and similar changes aren't going to make or break the playing field.
sportsman class C - made up of trail rigs like mine full bodied 84 Toyota 4runner and we have samurai's and jeeps full bodied and a 37" tire max.

sportsman A - are rigs that are like full buggies with links, airshocks/coilovers, 37" + tires and may look like they have a jeep grill but you know they are buggies.
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Old 03-07-2019, 02:43 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
7.1 Axles
7.1.1: Front axle must be from 1979 - 1985 Toyota Pickup or 4Runner
7.1.2: Aftermarket/custom housings are allowed, in any width
7.1.3: Aftermarket Birfields allowed, including upsizing spline count
7.1.4: Aftermarket inner axles allowed, including upsizing spline count
7.1.5: Must use Toyota third members
7.1.6: Any factory or aftermarket ring & pinion gear sets can be used in front or rear axle
7.1.7: Must use Toyota steering knuckles, or aftermarket yes any Toyota steering knuckle.
7.1.8: Differential shaving allowed
7.1.9: Trussing and diff armored allowed
7.1.10: Birfield eliminator kits not allowed must use Birfields.
7.1.11: Rear axle must be from a Toyota any Toyota.
7.1.12: Any Toyota third member allowed (stock Toyota or aftermarket)

7.1.2: Doesn't make sense to me. It states you have to use 79-85 Toy housing. But then the rest of the 7.1 section pretty much says you can run anything else as long as it is Toyota.

How about saying:
7.1.1: Axles must be Toyota based (Front and Rear)
7.1.2: Aftermarket/custom housings are allowed, in any width
7.1.3: Aftermarket Birfields allowed, including upsizing spline count
7.1.4: Aftermarket inner axles allowed, including upsizing spline count
7.1.5: Any Toyota third member allowed (stock Toyota or aftermarket)
7.1.6: Any factory or aftermarket ring & pinion gear sets can be used.
7.1.7: Must use Toyota based steering knuckles, OE or aftermarket.
7.1.8: Differential shaving allowed.
7.1.9: Trussing and diff armored allowed.
7.1.10: Birfield eliminator kits not allowed, must use Birfields.
7.1.11: Rear Axle outers must be Toyota based.
[/QUOTE]

Just simplified it. Makes it much more easy to build around and hey, maybe some cool kids will come up with some cool Toyota parts combinations.
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Old 03-07-2019, 03:05 PM   #18 (permalink)
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We ran Sportsman C one year, but were running against full bodied vehicles. It really was not fair to the other competitors because we were better set up and had a lot of the buggy advantages.
The following year we ran the A class, and it was more in line with capabilities of the vehicle. It was running the same lines as the PM. Comparing numbers, we would have finished 3rd in PM.
I believe the current rules would put ftoy in the A class, since it is a tube chassis. The drawback to the A class is that it pits you against the moon buggy,rear steer, portals, etc. Not that this is always a disadvantage, since the Sportsman class is usually the entry level class as well.

The biggest restrictions with ftoy is what was mentioned above. Steering angle wasn't as big as not being able to disconnect the rear and the spring hangers. The length of the vehicle came into play a few times, but mostly because the course designer was a prick.
We ran (and placed) in promod a few times with ours, and the only things I added was a rear disco and cutting brakes. They are still a very capable and competitive rig.
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Old 03-07-2019, 03:06 PM   #19 (permalink)
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7.1.2: Doesn't make sense to me. It states you have to use 79-85 Toy housing. But then the rest of the 7.1 section pretty much says you can run anything else as long as it is Toyota.

How about saying:
7.1.1: Axles must be Toyota based (Front and Rear)
7.1.2: Aftermarket/custom housings are allowed, in any width
7.1.3: Aftermarket Birfields allowed, including upsizing spline count
7.1.4: Aftermarket inner axles allowed, including upsizing spline count
7.1.5: Any Toyota third member allowed (stock Toyota or aftermarket)
7.1.6: Any factory or aftermarket ring & pinion gear sets can be used.
7.1.7: Must use Toyota based steering knuckles, OE or aftermarket.
7.1.8: Differential shaving allowed.
7.1.9: Trussing and diff armored allowed.
7.1.10: Birfield eliminator kits not allowed, must use Birfields.
7.1.11: Rear Axle outers must be Toyota based.
Just simplified it. Makes it much more easy to build around and hey, maybe some cool kids will come up with some cool Toyota parts combinations.[/QUOTE]
So like this?

Axles:
7.1.1: Axles must be Toyota based (Front and Rear)
7.1.2: Aftermarket/custom housings are allowed, in any width
7.1.3: Aftermarket Birfields allowed, including upsizing spline count
7.1.4: Aftermarket inner axles allowed, including upsizing spline count
7.1.5: Any Toyota third member allowed (stock Toyota or aftermarket)
7.1.6: Any factory or aftermarket ring & pinion gear sets can be used.
7.1.7: Must use Toyota based steering knuckles, OE or aftermarket.
7.1.8: Differential shaving allowed.
7.1.9: Trussing and diff armored allowed.
7.1.10: Birfield eliminator kits not allowed, must use Birfields.
7.1.11: Rear Axle outers must be Toyota based.

7.2 Cage / Chassis / Body
7.2.1: Safety cage built by an approved vendor
7.2.3: Frame must be Toyota Pickup, 4Runner or tacoma frame, 2wd or 4wd

7.3 Engine
7.3.1: ANY Toyota engine is allowed
7.3.2: Propane, EFI, or Carb allowed
7.3.9: Radiator must mount in front of engine
7.3.10: Electric fans allowed
7.3.11: Engine can be moved back 0"- 8" from stock
7.3.12: Engine can be moved down 0"-1" from stock

7.4 Frame
7.4.1: The frame can be stripped of all cab mounts and brackets but must have a minimum of 3 cross members including one in the very front and one in the very rear.
7.4.2: The frame length can be shortened in the rear only. The total frame length must not be less than the length of the chassis.

7.5 Steering
7.5.1: any steering system alowed

7.6 Transmission /Transfer case
7.6.1: Any Toyota makes or models manual or automatic transmission
7.6.2: Any Toyota gear driven mini truck case or combination of cases
7.6.3: Any manufactures gear set.
7.6.4: Any gear ratio
7.6.5: Dual case adapter must be commercially available
7.6.6: Any commercially available output shaft is allowed.
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