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Old 10-26-2017, 05:42 AM   #101 (permalink)
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I would say reg cab tacoma. While i see the automatic appeal to "links," the rules of the class pretty much kill shock location options. The 4runner also comes with a weight penalty over the tacoma.
I'd be curious how much weight after gutting and removing windows.
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Old 10-26-2017, 08:07 AM   #102 (permalink)
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I would say reg cab tacoma. While i see the automatic appeal to "links," the rules of the class pretty much kill shock location options. The 4runner also comes with a weight penalty over the tacoma.
This was my first thought. Plus....I will have to check the rules but you can get glass for everything just leaving the cab/doors steel. You can easily get over 300hp out of a naturally aspirated 3rz its all in the tune. imo the 3.4 is a heavy powerless turd. I think the big challenge would be getting the a340 to survive.
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Old 10-26-2017, 09:38 AM   #103 (permalink)
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I agree on the 3.4. The ability to run a sc on one is the only saving grace for the 4600 class. My understanding is that you could even gut the interior of the doors, etc. Glass bedsides, fenders, hood are ok. Getting the a340 or an aw4 hybrid to live should not be a problem, with the right builder. I would lean for the hybrid option and use the awd case out of a wj. It should short course and run desert like a champ with the center diff taking the shock loads.
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Old 10-26-2017, 09:50 AM   #104 (permalink)
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on this note: how does your 8" ring gear front blue 3rd gen fit into the class rules?

it seems to be holding up well to trail running and the steering rack should be solid.
100% legal for the class. Its a bolt in. There are solutions for steering to make that a non-issue as well.

As I mentioned a couple years ago, we'd be interested in working with a team, that is very active in promoting their team and the class.
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Old 10-26-2017, 10:06 AM   #105 (permalink)
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I agree on the 3.4. The ability to run a sc on one is the only saving grace for the 4600 class. My understanding is that you could even gut the interior of the doors, etc. Glass bedsides, fenders, hood are ok. Getting the a340 or an aw4 hybrid to live should not be a problem, with the right builder. I would lean for the hybrid option and use the awd case out of a wj. It should short course and run desert like a champ with the center diff taking the shock loads.
I sent a note to chris from maximum offroad transmission. He said the same thing no problem all it takes is money.

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100% legal for the class. Its a bolt in. There are solutions for steering to make that a non-issue as well.

As I mentioned a couple years ago, we'd be interested in working with a team, that is very active in promoting their team and the class.
You sir are making it very tempting
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Old 10-26-2017, 11:28 AM   #106 (permalink)
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what about a 2004-2015 reg cab taco. stuff a 1grfe in it. Ive seen the total chaos truck and it rips. lots of engine mods for it and it only weighs 350ish lbs.
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Old 10-26-2017, 01:15 PM   #107 (permalink)
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How is the tuning support? I think that is the single largest disadvantage with almost any toyota engine. There is very limited tuning options, short of going complete aftermarket standalone.

I am a bit surprised that total chaos, iconn or others have not jumped into the 4600 class.
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Old 10-26-2017, 07:18 PM   #108 (permalink)
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96 4Runner- 3845 lbs.
2001 reg cab taco 3290 lbs.

Lighter is faster right?

I'm intrigued by the 3rz but admittedly know nothing about them. Marlin swears they're a better swap than the 3.4.
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Old 10-26-2017, 08:06 PM   #109 (permalink)
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How is the tuning support? I think that is the single largest disadvantage with almost any toyota engine. There is very limited tuning options, short of going complete aftermarket standalone.

I am a bit surprised that total chaos, iconn or others have not jumped into the 4600 class.

no reason to not run a complete aftermarket standalone. this is the whole of the 'stock class engine rules' that i can find. really is open to tons of internal work outside of bore/stroke. no reason you couldn't do pistons, cam/valves, custom manifolds and a standalone ECU. less work than trying to piggyback the stock EFI into submission.

maybe not in the 'spirit' of the rule, but you really could make a pretty badass 3rz if the only limits are within 6" of factory frame location and stock spec bore and stroke.

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Old 10-26-2017, 08:22 PM   #110 (permalink)
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no reason to not run a complete aftermarket standalone. this is the whole of the 'stock class engine rules' that i can find. really is open to tons of internal work outside of bore/stroke. no reason you couldn't do pistons, cam/valves, custom manifolds and a standalone ECU. less work than trying to piggyback the stock EFI into submission.

maybe not in the 'spirit' of the rule, but you really could make a pretty badass 3rz if the only limits are within 6" of factory frame location and stock spec bore and stroke.
There is no rule against it, I was more expressing my dis-satisfaction that you have to. Compared to gm, ford or doge; there is very little and even fewer people that know what they are doing. It just adds cost and complexity for a race team to keep their engine running well and to troubleshoot issues when they develop.
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Old 10-27-2017, 07:39 AM   #111 (permalink)
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This was my first thought. Plus....I will have to check the rules but you can get glass for everything just leaving the cab/doors steel. You can easily get over 300hp out of a naturally aspirated 3rz its all in the tune. imo the 3.4 is a heavy powerless turd. I think the big challenge would be getting the a340 to survive.
The A340/AW4 variations have survived in all of the desert races including the Baja 1000 as well as been in several vehicles in KOH. Build it right and run a good cooler setup. It is the same transmission as the Jeep Cherokee's used from '87-'01. The A340 was also used in the Lexus SC400's, Toyota Supra's and early Tundra models.
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Old 10-27-2017, 07:52 AM   #112 (permalink)
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96 4Runner- 3845 lbs.
2001 reg cab taco 3290 lbs.

Lighter is faster right?

I'm intrigued by the 3rz but admittedly know nothing about them. Marlin swears they're a better swap than the 3.4.
If you subtract the rear doors, tailgate, rear seats, and rear side glass you would do a lot to narrow that weight gap.
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Old 10-27-2017, 08:07 AM   #113 (permalink)
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Runners are shorter, a lot shorter than a taco. When I look at rules, for full body, and functional doors, no bobbing legal etc. A 4runner in my mind wins. Coilovers legal front and rear, as they were coil and shock. Linked rear legal. The weight is a non issue, as there is so much inside the doors, and interior that would be gutted out to lose the weight. A runner looses back seats, carpeting, power locks and window mechanisms, door panels, 5 pieces of glass over a taco, all the same junk in the gate, its a lot of weight coming off. A cage in the runner is also easier, and just a lot nicer to deal with a cage as well, as there is no back to the cab. Cut the doors to skins with a latch and those are legal. A cage can punch through the body, so you dont need to cage the whole back end of the runner out either.

I see no reason to use a 3rz in there. 3.4 is more power, easier to boost. A boosted 3.4 is legal as well as it was a new from dealer option. As I understand a boosted 2.7 was never a dealer supplied option, thereby not legal. Personally I have seen 3.4's survive oil starvation much better than 3rz. When I drove for Dave in comp, I think we killed 3, at least 2, 3rz's in a year. Yet Ive personally run 3.4's out of oil without engine failure. 3.4's are also more plentiful.
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Old 10-27-2017, 08:14 AM   #114 (permalink)
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This was my first thought. Plus....I will have to check the rules but you can get glass for everything just leaving the cab/doors steel. You can easily get over 300hp out of a naturally aspirated 3rz its all in the tune. imo the 3.4 is a heavy powerless turd. I think the big challenge would be getting the a340 to survive.
You can not easily get 300hp out of any N/A 4 cylinder. Your talking 110+ hp per liter, which is exotic race engine territory. As far as the A340 goes, versions of that tranny come stock behind that kind of HP.
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Old 10-27-2017, 10:22 AM   #115 (permalink)
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Engine choices aside, KOH is all about survival. I think making the ifs survive is a bigger issue. So what would be the best way to build that? Could the clamshell diff be made to survive? And how would you address the steering? And how would one of the kits from say Total Chaos handle the rock sections?
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Old 10-27-2017, 11:10 AM   #116 (permalink)
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Engine choices aside, KOH is all about survival. I think making the ifs survive is a bigger issue. So what would be the best way to build that? Could the clamshell diff be made to survive? And how would you address the steering? And how would one of the kits from say Total Chaos handle the rock sections?
This 1996 Toyota 4Runner Proves IFS Doesn’t Have to Be Weak

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Ellinger replaced the 7 1/2-inch front differential with an 8-inch differential from a later model 4Runner along with a custom intermediate shaft, housing, and mounts. It uses 4.88 gears and an ARB Air Locker with super-strong chromoly RCV axleshafts that are 30-spline throughout (like an upgraded Toyota solid axle) to make the whole thing live, even with 37-inch-tall tires. Tacomas use the same front axle components, and all of these parts are interchangeable.

really I think this would be the ticket that FROR seems to be working pretty hard towards. Strip everything out for race prep, work over the engine as much as $$ allows, toss a 340 trans and chain drive t-case (blasphemy!) behind it and run the ever living piss out of it.

I honestly can't think of why the chain drive case wouldn't be a better option for something that was less concerned about crawling. pretty stout and replacing a chain every so often as preventative maint. would be more straightforward than swapping out or dealing with gears, added bonus there *should* be less issues with running the hell out of it at speed.




https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/gener...ck-pinion.html

sure the steering would take some coin to get a desert race setup, but you'd really be saving some money in other spots (mainly axles) compared to an unlimited ultra4 car
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Old 10-27-2017, 11:10 AM   #117 (permalink)
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You can not easily get 300hp out of any N/A 4 cylinder. Your talking 110+ hp per liter, which is exotic race engine territory. As far as the A340 goes, versions of that tranny come stock behind that kind of HP.
Trust me it's not that hard there is one sitting in my shop right now I'm not sure you realize the abuse that a transmission goes through at koh.
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Old 10-27-2017, 12:02 PM   #118 (permalink)
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Engine choices aside, KOH is all about survival. I think making the ifs survive is a bigger issue. So what would be the best way to build that? Could the clamshell diff be made to survive? And how would you address the steering? And how would one of the kits from say Total Chaos handle the rock sections?
Supra or custom 8", 9.5 center (if you must stay toyota) 9" otherwise and rcv's. I think a modified swing set like the 2nd and 3rd gen trucks ran offers better geometry than a rack.
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Old 10-27-2017, 12:03 PM   #119 (permalink)
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Runners are shorter, a lot shorter than a taco. When I look at rules, for full body, and functional doors, no bobbing legal etc. A 4runner in my mind wins. Coilovers legal front and rear, as they were coil and shock. Linked rear legal. The weight is a non issue, as there is so much inside the doors, and interior that would be gutted out to lose the weight. A runner looses back seats, carpeting, power locks and window mechanisms, door panels, 5 pieces of glass over a taco, all the same junk in the gate, its a lot of weight coming off. A cage in the runner is also easier, and just a lot nicer to deal with a cage as well, as there is no back to the cab. Cut the doors to skins with a latch and those are legal. A cage can punch through the body, so you dont need to cage the whole back end of the runner out either.

I see no reason to use a 3rz in there. 3.4 is more power, easier to boost. A boosted 3.4 is legal as well as it was a new from dealer option. As I understand a boosted 2.7 was never a dealer supplied option, thereby not legal. Personally I have seen 3.4's survive oil starvation much better than 3rz. When I drove for Dave in comp, I think we killed 3, at least 2, 3rz's in a year. Yet Ive personally run 3.4's out of oil without engine failure. 3.4's are also more plentiful.
The rear cannot be coilover. The application of the rules has already established that coil/ shock does not = coilover, but a strut does = coilover.
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Old 10-27-2017, 12:17 PM   #120 (permalink)
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The rear cannot be coilover. The application of the rules has already established that coil/ shock does not = coilover, but a strut does = coilover.
it could be pretty damn close though with a coil spring and a separate 2.5" body emulsion shock.

Wouldn't think a coil carrier would count as long as it provides no dampening, then you would get a bit more adjustment in spring rate compared to a standard ~5" single coil spring.

that is probably one of them things that would need to be clarified through tech first. packaging would be tough, but considering there is no obvious track width limitation, why not widen out the rear axle housing a few inches on both sides for more space, since they need to be axle mounted. easy to do with some spacers and i'd imagine aftermarket shafts would be a given so the cost would be negligible.

hell, they wouldn't be able to call it a secondary suspension, you could drill a small hole in the damn carrier shock body and run a brass/bronze bushing instead of rubber seals to prove that it isn't holding any air.

or i'm just way off base, but it doesn't seem like that would be much of a stretch of the rule at all.
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Old 10-27-2017, 12:24 PM   #121 (permalink)
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it could be pretty damn close though with a coil spring and a separate 2.5" body emulsion shock.

Wouldn't think a coil carrier would count as long as it provides no dampening, then you would get a bit more adjustment in spring rate compared to a standard ~5" single coil spring.

that is probably one of them things that would need to be clarified through tech first. packaging would be tough, but considering there is no obvious track width limitation, why not widen out the rear axle housing a few inches on both sides for more space, since they need to be axle mounted. easy to do with some spacers and i'd imagine aftermarket shafts would be a given so the cost would be negligible.

hell, they wouldn't be able to call it a secondary suspension, you could drill a small hole in the damn carrier shock body and run a brass/bronze bushing instead of rubber seals to prove that it isn't holding any air.

or i'm just way off base, but it doesn't seem like that would be much of a stretch of the rule at all.
Historically it's a dead issue. Tj's, lj's and jk's make up the bulk of the 4600 class. All of them are coil/ shock from the factory and NONE run coilovers. Year two of the emc dave and i talked at length about ifs 45/4600 build possibilities. Replacing a strut assembly with a coiliver is ok, anything else is not.
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Old 10-27-2017, 12:30 PM   #122 (permalink)
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Historically it's a dead issue. Tj's, lj's and jk's make up the bulk of the 4600 class. All of them are coil/ shock from the factory and NONE run coilovers. Year two of the emc dave and i talked at length about ifs 45/4600 build possibilities. Replacing a strut assembly with a coiliver is ok, anything else is not.
so a coil carrier with dual springs would count as a coilover? I know you are way more involved in this than I am, so that is why I appreciate being able to bounce ideas off of you.
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Old 10-27-2017, 12:57 PM   #123 (permalink)
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so a coil carrier with dual springs would count as a coilover? I know you are way more involved in this than I am, so that is why I appreciate being able to bounce ideas off of you.
Yes, that would be Pandora's box of needing to open every "carrier" and inspect the piston. Even some of the 4400 guys use some valving in their carriers. It's just easier to say no, in this case. You can get custom coils made, the rules are much more about packaging than function.
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Old 10-27-2017, 06:55 PM   #124 (permalink)
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im thinking if you were to use a runner it should be a 4th gen runner, 4.7 v8, coil all around, lighter and smaller than the 3rd gen version, more power, IMO alot better driver visibility. coilover in the front and a dual rate coil and seperate shock on the back, in the desert i think it would eat a TJ for lunch
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Old 10-27-2017, 06:59 PM   #125 (permalink)
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Engine choices aside, KOH is all about survival. I think making the ifs survive is a bigger issue. So what would be the best way to build that? Could the clamshell diff be made to survive? And how would you address the steering? And how would one of the kits from say Total Chaos handle the rock sections?
that may have been true 5 years ago, but you dont see alot of current IFS shit breaking. the newer runners have the bigger front chunk and I think with RCVs they would survive pretty well
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