wheel hop climbing ledges - Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum
 
Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum  

Go Back   Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum > Brand Specific Tech > Toyota - Truck and 4Runner
Notices

Reply
 
Share LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-31-2016, 07:28 AM   #1 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Member # 30420
Location: Lincoln, NE
Posts: 248
wheel hop climbing ledges

My 4runner has never done very well at climbing vertical ledges. Currently the truck sits on 63" chevy springs that I have recently replaced and I added a BDS add a leaf to the spring pack. I am not running the larger overload on the spring.

My traction bar is a little different and set up like this:
Above the driveshaft.


Attaches to front horsecollar that has been reinforced.


Hopefully these videos work:
Hard to stay into climbs like this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVEKG9qpKQo

you can also see in this video on Double Whammy in Moab that a little throttle starts the bouncing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfS9lZJd1fQ

I have really OLD Bilstein shocks all the way around from when I SASed the truck in 04. They were the standard at the time which I believe were 5125's. The mounts on the axles are single shear and I noticed they were a little loose after I got back from wheeling.

I am considering taking a dive into custom valved purpose built shocks for this application. I know that shocks are not always a fix for wheel hop like this, but maybe a properly setup shock can help.

I also have a gameplan to link the front and rear on ORI's. I would rather wait and do the front and rear at the same time which will be a huge chunk of change.

So, should I just bite the bullet and link the rear, or spend some money on some good shocks with adjustable low speed rebounding and see if it helps?

Last edited by akarocket; 03-31-2016 at 07:38 AM.
akarocket is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-31-2016, 08:00 AM   #2 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Member # 30420
Location: Lincoln, NE
Posts: 248
I forgot to add that the rear is a semifloat Dana 60. It's plenty heavy. I also tend to pack a ton of tools, supplies when I go wheeling.
akarocket is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Old 03-31-2016, 08:24 AM   #3 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Member # 210689
Location: Memphis, TN
Posts: 117
Hard to tell from the video, but usually axle wrap causes the springs to load and unload. With your torque arm I'd say that shouldn't be the issue though.

If I were going to guess I'd say you have too much weight for the shocks to dampen. Looks like the tires start the slip/grip which tosses the body up and down, and then it begins to oscillate from there. The shocks should stop this.

I'd recommend trying a ledge with your setup, and then pulling some weight out of the rig and trying it again to see if it's better.

You could do the same with tire pressure too. Try it. Drop 10% pressure and try again.

Get video under the rig so you can see what the suspension is doing.
__________________
-Lambert
lambertvr4 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-31-2016, 08:25 AM   #4 (permalink)
Wicked Raciest !
 
OOP'S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Member # 30
Location: Roseville, CA,To many Yuppies, Not enough Hippies
Posts: 17,722
Anti-wrap leafs on the springs will help some. That is all I have and do not have wheel hop.

Most traction bars I have seen do not have a slip on them, they are mounted with a shackle on the frame.
Attached Images
   
__________________
David & Theresa, Roseville, CA,

As long as my tires are dirty, I am happy!!!!
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

OOP'S is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-31-2016, 09:04 AM   #5 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Member # 66955
Posts: 1,107
My guess is old shocks, too much tire pressure and a huge lift.
sherm$ is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-31-2016, 09:34 AM   #6 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Member # 30420
Location: Lincoln, NE
Posts: 248
Tires have 9 lbs in them. I see people have run both a slip twist traction bar and a shackle with success. I don't know if one is better than the other. The springs are pretty flat with no blocks or anything at ride height. It does sit higher with CJ5 hangers. That's how it was done 17 years ago...
akarocket is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-31-2016, 10:06 AM   #7 (permalink)
Pirate4x4 Addict!
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Member # 3132
Location: Fair Oaks, CA
Posts: 12,611
Send a message via AIM to NOODLES Send a message via Yahoo to NOODLES
Swap out the rear springs they may be a little worn between the front eyelet and the u bolts. It looks like in the picture the second lead is actually wearing into the main leaf. The spring kind of binds into a 's' on the front half of the main leaf. I don't think the anti wrap is supposed to hide a worn spring. Only help the spring from wrapping so much. If you want the anti wrap bar to do all the work, I would consider an actual link suspension.

Last edited by NOODLES; 03-31-2016 at 10:06 AM.
NOODLES is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-31-2016, 10:08 AM   #8 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Member # 207814
Location: N. Idaho
Posts: 511
heavy rig, soft springs, and shitty shocks.
you have a traction bar so axle wrap is out of the picture.

I'm confused as to why there is even a question as to what the problem is.
__________________
1989 Toyota know as Captain America

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
NorIdaWheeler is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-31-2016, 10:39 AM   #9 (permalink)
Pirate4x4 Addict!
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Member # 3132
Location: Fair Oaks, CA
Posts: 12,611
Send a message via AIM to NOODLES Send a message via Yahoo to NOODLES
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorIdaWheeler View Post
heavy rig, soft springs, and shitty shocks.
you have a traction bar so axle wrap is out of the picture.

I'm confused as to why there is even a question as to what the problem is.
This. Can you post a pics of the ole ladies ass so we can tell you if it is looking jiggly.
NOODLES is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-31-2016, 10:40 AM   #10 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Member # 30420
Location: Lincoln, NE
Posts: 248
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOODLES View Post
Swap out the rear springs they may be a little worn between the front eyelet and the u bolts. It looks like in the picture the second lead is actually wearing into the main leaf. The spring kind of binds into a 's' on the front half of the main leaf. I don't think the anti wrap is supposed to hide a worn spring. Only help the spring from wrapping so much. If you want the anti wrap bar to do all the work, I would consider an actual link suspension.
As in reverse them?

I have only used junk yard springs, so I imagine the bushings have always been a bit wore out. I have considered buying a set of aftermarket springs if it's worth the extra money. By the time I buy bypass shocks with adjusters and new springs, linking is starting to sound like a good idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NorIdaWheeler View Post
heavy rig, soft springs, and shitty shocks.
you have a traction bar so axle wrap is out of the picture.

I'm confused as to why there is even a question as to what the problem is.
So, I'm guessing you're voting for shocks?
akarocket is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-31-2016, 07:23 PM   #11 (permalink)
Rock God
 
Taco-Runner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Member # 110365
Posts: 1,609
Could be that you dont have a swing point at the frame for your traction bar! Its also part of the problem with leaves, you cant control the anti squat numbers to minimize hope. In additon, better shocks would also help but not fix the issue.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


"THE" Link System Specialist for your Toyota Truck, 4Runner, Tacoma and 80


Custom Tuned Shocks for Leaf Springs & Coilovers
Taco-Runner is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-31-2016, 07:35 PM   #12 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Member # 133493
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 225
Drop your tire pressure to 5 lbs and I bet you'll notice a difference. Not saying whether it will be bad or good.

-DuckTape
DuckTape is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-31-2016, 08:23 PM   #13 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Member # 404273
Location: Richland, WA
Posts: 282
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco-Runner View Post
Could be that you dont have a swing point at the frame for your traction bar! Its also part of the problem with leaves, you cant control the anti squat numbers to minimize hope. In additon, better shocks would also help but not fix the issue.
This.

You are running a ladder bar setup pretty much....and you pivot point is above your axle. Instant centers above axle center lines are not a good thing.

as your suspension travels it swings on the "traction bar" and fights the leafs giving you crazy wrap based on travel and not on actual torque loading.

add a shackle.
RoadWhore is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-31-2016, 09:24 PM   #14 (permalink)
Registered User
 
107096's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Member # 107096
Posts: 1,801
I have stock chevy 52s all around with bilstein 5100s. Even at 10 psi I get 0 hop and the rear is stiffer than the front which will STUFF my 38s in the fender to the point of slicing them open. I believe there has to be a compromise in every aspect of the machine from engine down to the tires, overall weight included but thats just me. But then again my powertrain consists of a 22r, w56, stock internaled dual cases, 5.29, arb's and 38s all in a truck that prolly cut damn near 1000lbs after the wreck last september.
107096 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-01-2016, 01:03 AM   #15 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Member # 50177
Location: simi valley, CA
Posts: 3,954
Watching the videos it looks like axle wrap to me. Shocks might help band aid it a little but you are not starting the hop from hitting a bump so I don't see them being the cause. Is there a bunch of play in the bushings and/or the slip joint on your traction bar? Could also be the fact that both of your traction bar mounts on the axle are up pretty high so it still loads up the spring. Try redoing your axle lower mount and moving it down to the axle tube. You will need to put it next to the pumpkin but that is OK.
__________________
Toyota Link Suspension Systems, Weld On Beadlocks, Custom Fabrication, and More


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



________________________________________________
05 GMC 2500HD d-max, 87 4runner, X chassis rock buggy

my buggy build

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
am4x4 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-01-2016, 07:17 AM   #16 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Member # 30420
Location: Lincoln, NE
Posts: 248
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadWhore View Post
This.

You are running a ladder bar setup pretty much....and you pivot point is above your axle. Instant centers above axle center lines are not a good thing.

as your suspension travels it swings on the "traction bar" and fights the leafs giving you crazy wrap based on travel and not on actual torque loading.

add a shackle.
This makes sense. Does there need to be a certain distance between where the front spring perch is and the mounting point for the traction bar?

I can add a shackle, although I don't see a difference between that and a slip twist shaft.



Quote:
Originally Posted by am4x4 View Post
Watching the videos it looks like axle wrap to me. Shocks might help band aid it a little but you are not starting the hop from hitting a bump so I don't see them being the cause. Is there a bunch of play in the bushings and/or the slip joint on your traction bar? Could also be the fact that both of your traction bar mounts on the axle are up pretty high so it still loads up the spring. Try redoing your axle lower mount and moving it down to the axle tube. You will need to put it next to the pumpkin but that is OK.
Bar is solid with no play in bushings or slip twist shaft. The upper bar at ride height is a 20 degree angle at most. however, it is much higher than the leaf spring hanger at the frame. I wonder if I should lower the entire bar down and get the frame mount closer to the leave spring hanger pivot point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco-Runner View Post
Could be that you dont have a swing point at the frame for your traction bar! Its also part of the problem with leaves, you cant control the anti squat numbers to minimize hope. In additon, better shocks would also help but not fix the issue.
I do have a swing point at the frame. I'm thinking it is way too high and the axle walks underneath itself and then the leaves react by bouncing.
akarocket is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-01-2016, 07:29 AM   #17 (permalink)
Registered User
 
zukijames's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Member # 136778
Location: lehi, utah
Posts: 2,072
Another Band-Aid option that sounds dumb is a rear suck down winch.

New better shocks are not going to hurt anything.. I'd start there..

you could also add an anti wrap leaf to your spring pack..

Or just link it 4WU makes the best kits
__________________
LOW RANGE OFF-ROAD
#lowrange #lror #zukijames
zukijames is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-01-2016, 07:32 AM   #18 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Member # 30420
Location: Lincoln, NE
Posts: 248
I think the fix for all of this is linking the front...

I have decided to cut the frame at the firewall and remove the IFS frame. The new frame rails will be at least 3-4" higher and that will allow me to bring the front end down with a 3 link. I will then remove the rear CJ5 hangers and french the mounts into the frame. That with the combination of changing the shackles should lower it a bunch. The traction bar will be reworked at that time to a more conventional setup. Could I leave the top axle mount where it is now and move the lower onto the axle? This with lowering the frame mount could move the instant center below the axle center? Another words the traction bar would be angling up in the back instead of down? I know that works well on 4 links when the upper arms are angled that way.

If that don't work I guess it is time to link the back as well......
akarocket is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-01-2016, 08:02 AM   #19 (permalink)
Registered User
 
zukijames's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Member # 136778
Location: lehi, utah
Posts: 2,072
id link the back first but that's just me


Cheaper , easier, more benefits

The rear is doing all the work when climbing big stuff.

a huge bonus to rear links is triangulated lowers will keep the front end from swinging around and big steep climbs when only 1 rear tire gets traction.
__________________
LOW RANGE OFF-ROAD
#lowrange #lror #zukijames
zukijames is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-01-2016, 12:53 PM   #20 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Member # 30420
Location: Lincoln, NE
Posts: 248
Quote:
Originally Posted by zukijames View Post
id link the back first but that's just me


Cheaper , easier, more benefits

The rear is doing all the work when climbing big stuff.

a huge bonus to rear links is triangulated lowers will keep the front end from swinging around and big steep climbs when only 1 rear tire gets traction.
I would like to do the rear first, but I need to get the overall height of the rig down. The biggest issue is the IFS frame. I don't want to link the rear and have it sitting so high to match the front then turn around and lower the whole thing down. I'm afraid we would have to change the link mounts.
akarocket is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-01-2016, 03:56 PM   #21 (permalink)
Custom User Title
 
Provience's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Member # 138976
Location: Thurston County, WA
Posts: 28,445
20* sounds a bit much for the angle on the ladder bar. In my highly biased and unprofessional opinion, consider it a like you would a link arm and build it to be as near flat and neutral as possible so that it doesn't have to do as much work to keep up with the leaf spring arch.

adding a shackle would help by lowering down the front pivot and reducing some of the angle, but there is no reason why a slip/twist style won't work either. It only needs to go forward and back as much as the front half of the leaf spring flattens out and arches, and that isn't very much.
__________________
up is difficult, down is dangerous

freedom of choice is what you have, freedom from choice is what you want

keep your head down, go to sleep to the rhythm of the war drums
Provience is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-01-2016, 03:57 PM   #22 (permalink)
Pirate4x4 Addict!
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Member # 3132
Location: Fair Oaks, CA
Posts: 12,611
Send a message via AIM to NOODLES Send a message via Yahoo to NOODLES
It isn't wheel hop. It is the flabby ass bouncing.
NOODLES is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-01-2016, 03:59 PM   #23 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Member # 8553
Location: Des Moines IA
Posts: 341
Should have just let me leave all the link mounts on there for you and you would be set
__________________
Ummmm Beer
Satan's_Minion is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-01-2016, 04:07 PM   #24 (permalink)
Custom User Title
 
Provience's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Member # 138976
Location: Thurston County, WA
Posts: 28,445
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOODLES View Post
It isn't wheel hop. It is the flabby ass bouncing.
ah, i didn't watch the video and was going off the pics
__________________
up is difficult, down is dangerous

freedom of choice is what you have, freedom from choice is what you want

keep your head down, go to sleep to the rhythm of the war drums
Provience is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-31-2017, 06:17 AM   #25 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Member # 394482
Location: Salton City, CA
Posts: 337
BudBuilt

Really like the expedition style and the Softop. I didn't realize the Budbuilt has a shackle. I think the shackle would definitely help.
In this video, you are able to "bounce" it over the ledge -i learned something here! Your rear axle mounts for the bar look well built, but perhaps copying the "BubBuilt" geometry is what you really need. Or a 4 link. Lastly, i run the same type tire as you: TSLs. I see they have sticky "rock" tires available. I bet that would really help. (not practical for a DD, tho). I wonder if anyone brings stickies just for Moab, maybe in a trailer. What is the oil cooler in the pic connected to, and is the air tank for OBA(ARB and airing back up)? Sorry to be a nosy dick!

Last edited by flhtom1948; 03-31-2017 at 06:26 AM. Reason: sp
flhtom1948 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

** A VERIFICATION EMAIL IS SENT TO THIS ADDRESS TO COMPLETE REGISTRATION!! **

Email Address:
Insurance
Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:16 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.