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Old 06-27-2018, 07:45 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Also with a 35, you want to be in the 5.13-5.38 gear ratio. Unless you want to go slow.
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Old 06-27-2018, 07:53 AM   #52 (permalink)
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The atlas comes in at 4.3 or a 5.0. There is no 4.7 ratio.
Thanks - I meant 4.3 Was getting it mixed up with 4.7L engine.
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Old 06-27-2018, 07:54 AM   #53 (permalink)
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Also with a 35, you want to be in the 5.13-5.38 gear ratio. Unless you want to go slow.
We want to go fast but also keep the gears as big/strong as possible - which is why we chose 4.56. Not sure I follow how 4.56 is slower than 5.13-5.38?
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Old 06-27-2018, 07:55 AM   #54 (permalink)
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Thanks - I meant 4.3 Was getting it mixed up with 4.7L engine.
IMO that is going to be too low with an auto.
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Old 06-27-2018, 08:00 AM   #55 (permalink)
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IMO that is going to be too low with an auto.
Too low for the rocks? Note we're planning to use 2wd High for the desert sections.

And we'll be keeping our RPMs and momentum up in the rocks.

It's never been done before, so I'm open to suggestions. But the 4.3 looked good in the calculator - which I certainly recognize isn't reality...
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Old 06-27-2018, 08:01 AM   #56 (permalink)
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We want to go fast but also keep the gears as big/strong as possible - which is why we chose 4.56. Not sure I follow how 4.56 is slower than 5.13-5.38?
Acceleration is more important in desert racing then top speed. You might hit 70 miles an hour a couple times on the course, but basically your drag racing from 0 to 50 to 0 to 50 to 0 to 50 and so on. You want deep low gears so you can get up to speed as quickly as possible. You donít need freeway gears. And with an overdrive or you can get away with a very deep gear. Even the 4 L jeep guys run gears in the 5.xx range and they donít like to rev.

Also donít bolt all this crap to your truck that youíre going to have to take off when you start the fabrication. The headers and y pipe are fine because you need to know for clearance, but when you cage it youíre not gonna be able to run the AFE airbox. That kind of stuff is just a waste of time and money. Strip it, cage it, then start adding stuff. If you need a DD for now leave it alone.
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Old 06-27-2018, 08:04 AM   #57 (permalink)
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Too low for the rocks? Note we're planning to use 2wd High for the desert sections.

And we'll be keeping our RPMs and momentum up in the rocks.

It's never been done before, so I'm open to suggestions. But the 4.3 looked good in the calculator - which I certainly recognize isn't reality...
Yep. Too low for rocks. Will force you to crawl instead of using momentum. Go for a 3.0 or maybe a 3.8.
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Old 06-27-2018, 08:12 AM   #58 (permalink)
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Acceleration is more important in desert racing then top speed. You might hit 70 miles an hour a couple times on the course, but basically your drag racing from 0 to 50 to 0 to 50 to 0 to 50 and so on. You want deep low gears so you can get up to speed as quickly as possible. You donít need freeway gears. And with an overdrive or you can get away with a very deep gear. Even the 4 L jeep guys run gears in the 5.xx range and they donít like to rev.

Also donít bolt all this crap to your truck that youíre going to have to take off when you start the fabrication. The headers and y pipe are fine because you need to know for clearance, but when you cage it youíre not gonna be able to run the AFE airbox. That kind of stuff is just a waste of time and money. Strip it, cage it, then start adding stuff. If you need a DD for now leave it alone.
Thanks for the comments. We were originally planning on 5.29s exactly for the reasons mentioned above, but were afraid of the front gears being so much weaker than 4.56s. After considering the v8 power, front diff setup, tranny with OD, rocks vs. desert conditions, etc - 4.56 was recommended by the team at Marlin Crawler and RockSolidToys as happy balance between all, but we're open to any suggestions and not quite locked in (will be soon though).

Yes, the Headers and Y-Pipe will stay. The Magnaflow muffler will stay, but will be cut off behind the muffler (it was free - I have no issue with cutting it).

Thanks for your comment on the DD. It's honestly a balancing act that can be frustrating at times. I really want to begin stripping the v8, but DD just isn't ready yet.

I was in the garage for 8-hrs yesterday after work and am 75% there: installed new suspension and brakes, interior completely stripped and ready for restoration, 30 boxes of parts in the garage, rear diff rebuilt, etc. But it still has to get painted and final body work done, so I still have a few more weeks where I have to be patient.

Until then, I'm knocking out as many of the things I CAN to the 4th gen like engine, seats, interior removal, etc and still drive it daily. And I need to find some junkyard doors to begin gutting/cutting the half-doors.

After that, it'll be taken to CA for the real fab work to begin. Parts are already accumulating in CA at Marlin Crawler and RockSolidToys. Like the rear RJ60 - which right now is tentatively ordered at 4.56 gears.

If anyone feels strongly against 4.56 for a balance of speed and strength with the 4.3 Atlas II, now is the time to speak up.
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Old 06-27-2018, 08:57 AM   #59 (permalink)
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Last advice for today. Paint it last. You donít have to get crazy masking parts and your fab shop wonít destroy the fresh paint.
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Old 06-27-2018, 09:36 AM   #60 (permalink)
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Last advice for today. Paint it last. You donít have to get crazy masking parts and your fab shop wonít destroy the fresh paint.
Thanks. I assume you're talking about the DD 1st gen? If so, agreed. Note the 4th Gen will be wrapped for KOH.
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Old 06-27-2018, 09:53 AM   #61 (permalink)
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Thanks. I assume you're talking about the DD 1st gen? If so, agreed. Note the 4th Gen will be wrapped for KOH.
I thought you were saying you were painting the race car. I got a little confused because you have two 4runners in the same thread.
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Old 06-28-2018, 07:55 AM   #62 (permalink)
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I thought you were saying you were painting the race car. I got a little confused because you have two 4runners in the same thread.
Yeah, I just deleted the pics of the 1st gen.

Atlas II doesn't come in a 3.0 or 3.8 does it? I do agree - given IFS, we must be racing not crawling!
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Old 06-28-2018, 08:32 AM   #63 (permalink)
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Yeah, I just deleted the pics of the 1st gen.

Atlas II doesn't come in a 3.0 or 3.8 does it? I do agree - given IFS, we must be racing not crawling!
It comes in both 3.8 and 3.0
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Old 06-28-2018, 08:45 AM   #64 (permalink)
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It comes in both 3.8 and 3.0
Good. Straight from AA website:
1.5:1 : This is a newer ratio that looks like it will be more popular for the 4 speed and used in quite a few competition rigs as a 2 speed.

2.0:1 : This unit is more of a stock ratio found in most early full size trucks and used in quite a few competition rigs

3.0:1 : This unit is popular in numerous applications. Used in quite a few competition rigs

3.8:1 : The Atlas 3.8 is a good choice for the avid 4-wheeler since this low gear ratio is ideal for moderate to some extreme rock crawling.

4.3:1 : This unit is popular in numerous applications.

5.0:1 : This unit is popular in numerous applications.


I'll dive in more with the team. Glad you brought this up - I should have known that there are a bunch of gearing options.

I'm leaning more toward the 3.0 or 3.8 at this point with 4.56s in the diffs.
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Old 06-28-2018, 10:15 AM   #65 (permalink)
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I'm playing with this RPM Calculator:
4x4 related Calculators, Crawl Ratio, Gears Tires Sizes, etc..

Using these specs for the A750F:
A750Fspecifications

We're good for high speed as is. For the rocks, what MPH should be assumed? I want to see RPMs for 3.0, 3.8, and 4.3 options for race speed in the rocks.

Thoughts?
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Old 06-28-2018, 12:00 PM   #66 (permalink)
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I saw the link to your rpm calculator and I've always used the grimm jeeper one

Gear Ratio Calculator

since you asked what mph you should want for the rocks this lets you compare mph ratio and rpm all at once since all should apply

it lets you enter tons of different combinations and then gives you crawl ratio, rpm, and mph for every gear in high, low, and if doubled ( high-low , low-high and low-low)
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Old 06-28-2018, 12:22 PM   #67 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Charles4x4 View Post
I'm playing with this RPM Calculator:
4x4 related Calculators, Crawl Ratio, Gears Tires Sizes, etc..

Using these specs for the A750F:
A750Fspecifications

We're good for high speed as is. For the rocks, what MPH should be assumed? I want to see RPMs for 3.0, 3.8, and 4.3 options for race speed in the rocks.

Thoughts?
You're chasing the wrong ghost, quickest accleration is what you want. 5.29's will not reduce your top speed beyond any number that you may actually reach, nor are they significantly weaker than 4.56..... Or run a 3.xx in the diff and get a 2.0 4spd case. You'll only need to shift the planetary box during the race and have damn quick 0-60 times. You will average faster times on the "desert" in 4wd.

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Old 06-28-2018, 01:41 PM   #68 (permalink)
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You're chasing the wrong ghost, quickest accleration is what you want. 5.29's will not reduce your top speed beyond any number that you may actually reach, nor are they significantly weaker than 4.56..... Or run a 3.xx in the diff and get a 2.0 4spd case. You'll only need to shift the planetary box during the race and have damn quick 0-60 times. You will average faster times on the "desert" in 4wd.
Thanks. I see your points. We're trying to make sure we save the front diff and front driveshaft by running 2WD in the desert, but it should theoretically be fine given it'll be open/limited slip via ATRAC (which likely wont' be on due to speed) and 4WD is feasible. Per Jesse at HighAngle, the front driveshaft will have a horizontal angle we have to be wary of.

I'm no gear expert, but multiple people have recommended 4.56 due to strength advantages over 5.29?

On the wide-open, flat desert sections (2-3 per lap maybe?), I'm guessing we can hit 70+ MPH. But it's probably less than 5% of the course.

Right now, it's really fast 0-60 with stock 3.73s and 32s. On 35's, the equivalent ratio would be 4.0, so 4.56 should be significantly quicker on 0-60 than it is now, while also retaining more strength than 5.29 - we thought it would be the best of both - speed and strength. Then a 3.0, 3.8, or 4.3 in the Atlas II.

Again, open to all opinions. And so you all know I'm not wasting your ideas, I've already passed a few of them from these posts to AA and RockSolidToys earlier today. Keep 'em coming!
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Old 06-28-2018, 01:49 PM   #69 (permalink)
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I saw the link to your rpm calculator and I've always used the grimm jeeper one

Gear Ratio Calculator

since you asked what mph you should want for the rocks this lets you compare mph ratio and rpm all at once since all should apply

it lets you enter tons of different combinations and then gives you crawl ratio, rpm, and mph for every gear in high, low, and if doubled ( high-low , low-high and low-low)
That calculator is sweet - especially the ability to compare 4.3 vs. 3.8 vs. 3.0 or 4.56 vs. 5.29.

With that said, there doesn't seem to be a huge difference in the combinations. In High, it will be able to go faster than I'll actually go with any configuration. In Low, it'll go slow with decent RPMs regardless.

Therefore, maybe a middle-of-the-road solution is best. Diffs at 4.56 with a 3.8 T-Case? Fast, strong, and can crawl if we have to. If too slow in the rocks in Low 1st, we'll just do some of the rock trails in Low 2nd gear!

For those math gurus out there, what do you see when you look at the various combinations that I might have missed?

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Old 06-28-2018, 03:06 PM   #70 (permalink)
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Wtf is ATRAC? Sounds like bullshit traction control. Tear that shit out (abs too) and put a Detroit or spool in the rear end. Nothing should be “open” on a race car.

Also you keep asking “what does everybody think” we keep saying scrap the 4.56’s and get deeper gears. You say “OK but I’m keeping the 4.56’s, What does everybody think?”

SCRAP THE 4.56’s!

Why don’t you race to win instead of racing to race?
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Old 06-28-2018, 03:19 PM   #71 (permalink)
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Wtf is ATRAC? Sounds like bullshit traction control. Tear that shit out (abs too) and put a Detroit or spool in the rear end. Nothing should be “open” on a race car.

Also you keep asking “what does everybody think” we keep saying scrap the 4.56’s and get deeper gears. You say “OK but I’m keeping the 4.56’s, What does everybody think?”

SCRAP THE 4.56’s!

Why don’t you race to win instead of racing to race?
ATRAC uses brake control to essentially keep a "limited slip" type setup in the front. With ATRAC, the front diff is open, which allows us to put in an ARB locker in the front so we have the best of both. If the ABS gets in the way, we'll scrap ATRAC and just have ARB in the front.

We'd plan on using the ATRAC limited slip in the front for moderate speed areas (it disables at high speed) and then engage the front ARB for the hardest sections.

Some say ATRAC is crap - others think it could make all the difference at KOH.

From a Toyota forum:
"ATRAC's sole purpose is to provide near equal wheel speeds without over stressing the drive line or brakes."
"The big difference between ATRAC and a locker is that you will lose a little momentum with ATRAC because the wheel needs to slip first before it activates. This all happens very quickly but sometimes momentum is the key...Lockers provide equal torque all the time, when engaged."

From another forum:
"I found ATRAC very effective with moderate and extreme wheeling. My use goes something like this: ATRAC on all the time, on hard obstacles, rear locker used 20%, front locker on 5% of the time."

As mentioned, we'll have both. And of course, the rear will have an ARB. There will be no open diffs!

We're racing to win, but will be stoked to finish, and happy with just surviving Thursday's EMC.
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Old 06-28-2018, 03:55 PM   #72 (permalink)
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i had an ARB in the rear of my trail rig... I swapped it for a detroit haha

you're going to have it on the whole time anyway might as well eliminate some potential breaking points (compressor, air lines, janky copper compression fitting into axle housing) and go with a full time locker in the rear

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Old 06-28-2018, 06:34 PM   #73 (permalink)
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From my experience with the atrac it is good for a weekend warior. Has benefits for sand ,snow, and mud. I have never been to the hammers, hopefully someday! But my 2 cents is you are racing and need to be in control of the skinny pedal. Putting your foot to the floor and waiting for the grunting/ buzzing and the computer trying to figure out what tire has traction is not going to help at all . If you have some extra rims that will clear the brakes find some junk low pro tire of a car and mount up measure the height and do the calculations to see what gears you would like. I'm thinking 24" tall tire would get you the gear for high range and normal low.
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Old 06-28-2018, 06:46 PM   #74 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by arickvan View Post
i had an ARB in the rear of my trail rig... I swapped it for a detroit haha

you're going to have it on the whole time anyway might as well eliminate some potential breaking points (compressor, air lines, janky copper compression fitting into axle housing) and go with a full time locker in the rear

DISCLAIMER (the only thing i race to is the ice chest for beer. just my 2 cents)
I sort of agree. I only run a ARBís in my Jeeps, and Detroit or spools in desert trucks.
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Beat95YJ is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-28-2018, 07:42 PM   #75 (permalink)
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The debate you hear about 5.29s being weak applies to cheap gears. You're planning to actually race... So don't get cheap gears. Problem solved. Get the best damn 5.29s you can find, spool the rear end, and ARB the front. ATRAC will be worthless if you're actually hammering through something (I have ATRAC on my daily driver/snow/hiking truck, it works for very mellow stuff but it's obtrusive as hell). ABS will also be worthless, bordering on dangerous at desert speeds. Gut all that crap and run new lines straight to the calipers.

You really should gut anything and everything that won't make the rig faster at KOH, or anything that will be less than 100% reliable so you can actually finish KOH. ATRAC and ABS should go first thing.
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