Steel City Racing: King of the Hammers 2019 Toyota 4Runner IFS 4600 Build Thread - Page 7 - Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum
 
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Old 07-18-2018, 08:49 AM   #151 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by bark beetle View Post
Why not break new ground and figure out how to stuff a Tundra 9Ē front IFS diff in this build, lead not follow. Even better would be the complete Tundra drivetrain, it pretty serious beef. I also want to advise against retaining the ABS and therefore ATRAC. Every Toyota ABS I have dealt with is very sensitive and makes stopping in the dirt dangerous because it kicks in way to early. ATRAC is also worthless if the rotors get wet or muddy. Go find my Tundra build thread and you will see why. I will never rely on fake lockers again, they will fail you when you need them the most. Three wheel drive at Johnson Valley equals more winching than you will ever want in a lifetime.
We've thought about the Tundra 9" diff for a while now. I just wonder how much stronger it'd be and if we can even fit it.

And remember we're running a ARBs front and rear. We're just trying to keep ATRAC so we can save the ARB for only when we need it to help keep wear and tear down on the front diff.

And I'm pretty certain there won't be much mud at JV in Feb.
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Old 07-18-2018, 08:57 AM   #152 (permalink)
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I used to contribute a lot to this site back when people did build threads galore and there was a lot of tech being shared since the aftermarket was A LOT smaller. I have been out of the "hardcore" side of this for well over a decade and prefer my mild wheeler/camping rig. I have been around this hobby for a long long time and built/helped build a few rigs, was on an XRRA/KOH team forever ago as well.

My opinion of what your are attempting here, while admirable, is more keyboard clatter than a build. We are on page 3 now and you have installed an O2 sensor and an exhaust while chasing sponsors and ordering up a winch and some extra doors. There is no chance this will be done in time, let alone competitive, tested and ready to race KOH. Good luck and I hope you prove me wrong. Won't be the fits time.
Thanks for your reply - it's the nicest one I've seen from you. I can see your point of view, but you also don't have the luxury of seeing what all is going on behind the scenes. More on that below.

And as mentioned in my first few posts, I'm the kind of person that always finishes what I start. This build will be done in time, tested, and ready to race in Feb! Will it be competitive - I certainly hope and pray so!
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Old 07-18-2018, 08:59 AM   #153 (permalink)
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What exactly are you meaning by wear and tear on the front diff? I do not see ATRAC helping out for this build. ARB off except when in the rocks and stay off the stupid pedal. Get good with a winch, I see a lot of time wasted to poor/no winch strategy.

If it were me and I was entering this class my first purchase would be a Gigglepin and making it fit
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Old 07-18-2018, 09:00 AM   #154 (permalink)
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-I dig it so build it like you want. Everyone has to learn their own way; for some of us it's the hard way but it's the only way we know. I get it.
-With that said, this a heck of an under taking and sounds like you're going learn a ton of things as result of the build including practicality. You're building a race truck not a dream trail truck. A race truck gets the shit beat out of it unmercifully but still has to get the job done while you can take it easy enough on a trail truck that you have the luxury of trying to maintain something a bit more refined. Don't get me wrong, maintaining a clean-ish race truck is possible but more for a really seasoned guy. Don't take things ridiculously seriously (not saying you are) and remember to have fun with it.
-Most of the guys on this board are full of shit so listen to your gut and those you trust. Good luck with the build.
Good advice. This build will be a bit different - it certainly won't be a beater race truck, which my sponsors would have zero interest in.

Priority #1 is performing great at KOH and we're on track there with some amazing fabricators and parts!

Priority #2 is sticking with my original vision (not another KOH buggy) and having a race vehicle the "Everyman" can actually relate to - with IFS front suspension - that performs great when it matters, on race day.
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Old 07-18-2018, 09:12 AM   #155 (permalink)
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I thought it may help to give a glimpse into the behind the scenes a little more. If you're only watching this thread for the hardcore stuff that is yet to come, skip this post.

From what I know so far, here is what it takes to make something like this Steel City Racing KOH project happen! Since I really committed to this build in May, I've spent a lot of time:
- Reading the Ultra4 rulebook 3-4 times and making lists of everything I have to get done to pass tech and stay within the 4600 class rules
- Creating a budget and a "dream build" list of To-Dos that fit the vision of this build and the 4600 class rules
- Pulling together the story of this project, which was critical for grabbing initial sponsor interest
- Filling out sponsorship paperwork, online forms, and legal documents - probably 50 forms filled out in total
- Building momentum with sponsors. Once you land 2-3, it does get easier.
- Landing sponsors, we are now up to 15 with 1 mandatory (Tires) sponsor remaining and 3 optional ones outstanding
- Creating relationships with groups like Marlin Crawler and RockSolidToys who believe in your vision and are willing to do whatever it takes to make it happen. Without BigMike and Wyatt in particular - and their willingness to connect us with others in the industry and build amazing parts for this rig - this build would be tough!

In today's age, the currency is no longer build-threads on forums. I'm doing build threads like this for ideas, diversity of thought, and because I think they are mostly extinct today which is a shame. Instead, it's social media that brings sponsors to the table. So, I had to:
- Create a rendering of how the vehicle will look
- Create social media campaigns for Facebook and Instagram (more time consuming than I had expected)
- Get the word out on forums, family & friends, and with Toyota enthusiasts.
- Constantly post new content to keep the interest (tough some days)

I then was finally able to get rolling - so, I started
- Looking for a no-rust, low mileage, affordably priced 4th gen v8 4x4 Sport or Limited (much harder to find than expected)
- Finishing my DD so I can tear into this one (still have a few weeks left - it's in Paint now)

We entered Phase I - Engine Performance, which I could do while the DD wasn't complete:
- Install Magnaflow exhaust, URD y-pipe with cat delete, new Denso O2 sensors, aFe Power air intake, URD 170 degree thermostat, AEM AFR and Fuel Pressure gauges, Doug Torley Headers (not yet installed), and URD MAF Calibrator (in the mail)

At the same time, I am still acquiring parts:
- The Warn ZEON 10-S Platinum winch arrived
- Fiberwerx Fenders are in the mail
- Front seats and harnesses are in the mail (seat brackets arrived)
- Salvage doors arrive on a 18-wheeler today (still looking for a liftgate)

Once the DD is done in a few weeks, I can tear out the 4th gen interior and remove exterior stuff, remove the stock doors, start on the fuel system, and work on armor (more to come here with a sponsor I just landed on Monday).

As we speak, the following is also in process:
- Rear RJ60 is ordered and being built
- Front suspension prototype should be complete in the next 2-4 weeks
- Front steering prototype is on the same timeline
- Front RCV Next Gen axle shafts are being engineered but won't be ready till the Fall
- Rear bumper prototype is being engineered and will be ready in the Fall
- Atlas II is being ordered
- Rear 4-Link is done and ready to be installed once the front suspension is on
- Coilovers, Coils, and Shocks are ready to go once the suspension is on
- Tires (still need a sponsor here) and Wheels will be ordered
- Driveshafts are envisioned and final specs will be dialed in once the suspension is on and final angles/measurements can be taken
- Roll cage is envisioned

All of that while balancing family life and running a small business. Note that the 4runner will be in CA for the real fabrication, starting in August.

So, if you're just looking at pictures, I think you may not be seeing the full story of what all has gone into this build thus far.

Lastly, as a shameless plug, if you want to help this build to keep up momentum with happy sponsors, please follow it on IG and FB and tell your friends. We need more followers - which will come from word of mouth from forum members like you and with momentum once the "sexy" fabrication side of the build really takes off. Social media is today's sponsorship currency, period!

And please PM me with any ideas or contacts you may have for Tire Sponsorship!
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Old 07-18-2018, 09:28 AM   #156 (permalink)
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What exactly are you meaning by wear and tear on the front diff? I do not see ATRAC helping out for this build. ARB off except when in the rocks and stay off the stupid pedal. Get good with a winch, I see a lot of time wasted to poor/no winch strategy.

If it were me and I was entering this class my first purchase would be a Gigglepin and making it fit
Here's the plan:
- Regular 4x4 in the Desert.
- ATRAC Front/Rear ARB on when slow in the rocks (only kicks in at slower speeds and acts as a limited slip).
- Front/Rear ARB on when ATRAC doesn't suffice in the rocks.
- Winch (via Warn sponsorship and the new ZEON 10-S Platinum posted above) when ARB doesn't get it done in the rocks.
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Old 07-18-2018, 09:34 AM   #157 (permalink)
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You won't be tearing into this until late August and expect to be at KOH in February and be competitive? Oh and get LOTS of testing in?

You have lost me again with a long winded post with the same broken record BS nobody cares to read here.
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Old 07-18-2018, 09:36 AM   #158 (permalink)
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Here's the plan:
- Regular 4x4 in the Desert.
- ATRAC Front/Rear ARB on when slow in the rocks (only kicks in at slower speeds and acts as a limited slip).
- Front/Rear ARB on when ATRAC doesn't suffice in the rocks.
- Winch (via Warn sponsorship and the new ZEON 10-S Platinum posted above) when ARB doesn't get it done in the rocks.
How does ATRAC work when you replace the entire carrier with an ARB? I would assume you just lost you limited slip installing a full carrier air locker. Am I wrong here?
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Old 07-18-2018, 09:44 AM   #159 (permalink)
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How does ATRAC work when you replace the entire carrier with an ARB? I would assume you just lost you limited slip installing a full carrier air locker. Am I wrong here?
Yes, pasted from another post above.

"ATRAC uses brake control to essentially keep a "limited slip" type setup in the front. With ATRAC, the front diff is open, which allows us to put in an ARB locker in the front so we have the best of both. If the ABS gets in the way, we'll scrap ATRAC and just have ARB in the front.

We'd plan on using the ATRAC limited slip in the front for moderate speed areas (it disables at high speed) and then engage the front ARB for the hardest sections.

Some say ATRAC is crap - others think it could make all the difference at KOH.

From a Toyota forum:
"ATRAC's sole purpose is to provide near equal wheel speeds without over stressing the drive line or brakes."
"The big difference between ATRAC and a locker is that you will lose a little momentum with ATRAC because the wheel needs to slip first before it activates. This all happens very quickly but sometimes momentum is the key...Lockers provide equal torque all the time, when engaged."
"I found ATRAC very effective with moderate and extreme wheeling. My use goes something like this: ATRAC on all the time, on hard obstacles, rear locker used 20%, front locker on 5% of the time."

As mentioned, we'll have both. And of course, the rear will have an ARB. There will be no open diffs!"
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Old 07-18-2018, 09:58 AM   #160 (permalink)
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Who's doing the fab work in Ca?
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Old 07-18-2018, 10:16 AM   #161 (permalink)
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Who's doing the fab work in Ca?
BigMike with Marlin Crawler, Wyatt Scott with RockSolidToys, a friend of Wyatt's is doing the cage, and 2-3 others not yet announced.

And, there is no reason to hold it back - Jesse with High Angle Driveline is doing the driveshafts on this project and helping us out a ton on pricing via Sponsorship.
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Old 07-18-2018, 10:29 AM   #162 (permalink)
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Yes, pasted from another post above that I'm sure you refused to read...

"ATRAC uses brake control to essentially keep a "limited slip" type setup in the front. With ATRAC, the front diff is open, which allows us to put in an ARB locker in the front so we have the best of both. If the ABS gets in the way, we'll scrap ATRAC and just have ARB in the front.

We'd plan on using the ATRAC limited slip in the front for moderate speed areas (it disables at high speed) and then engage the front ARB for the hardest sections.

Some say ATRAC is crap - others think it could make all the difference at KOH.

From a Toyota forum:
"ATRAC's sole purpose is to provide near equal wheel speeds without over stressing the drive line or brakes."
"The big difference between ATRAC and a locker is that you will lose a little momentum with ATRAC because the wheel needs to slip first before it activates. This all happens very quickly but sometimes momentum is the key...Lockers provide equal torque all the time, when engaged."
"I found ATRAC very effective with moderate and extreme wheeling. My use goes something like this: ATRAC on all the time, on hard obstacles, rear locker used 20%, front locker on 5% of the time."

As mentioned, we'll have both. And of course, the rear will have an ARB. There will be no open diffs!"
Gotcha, I must have read it last time and it never stuck.

Bust my balls all you wish. You have yet to deliver squat and just ramble on about the same BS over and over. I get it, you need/want sponsors. NONE of us here care about that. We are here to see a build up....now on page 4 with zero happening.
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Old 07-18-2018, 10:36 AM   #163 (permalink)
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This thread needs a lot less talk, and a HELL of a lot more action if you plan on racing in 27 weeks.
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Old 07-18-2018, 05:37 PM   #164 (permalink)
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More parts arrived today! These Fiberwerx front Fiberglass 4.5Ē Bulge fenders will really help us for the 35s while keeping COG low. I plan on installing them when the salvage doors are ready (should be here next Wed).





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Old 07-18-2018, 06:08 PM   #165 (permalink)
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A good friend of mine has low miles V8 4Runner That he is keeping around for a KOH stock build. Iím going to have to get on his case to build it just so I can show you how many mistakes you are making. You should be cutting the stock fenders instead of wasting money on fiberglass. Youíre just going to destroy it and the rocks. And as somebody who worked in the after market and approved sponsor packages, I donít give a shit how good your paint looks if you arenít going to finish. I also donít care if you have a PowerPoint presentation or a cute rendering. Come up with a plan to do stuff.
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Old 07-18-2018, 06:41 PM   #166 (permalink)
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A good friend of mine has low miles V8 4Runner That he is keeping around for a KOH stock build. I’m going to have to get on his case to build it just so I can show you how many mistakes you are making. You should be cutting the stock fenders instead of wasting money on fiberglass. You’re just going to destroy it and the rocks. And as somebody who worked in the after market and approved sponsor packages, I don’t give a shit how good your paint looks if you aren’t going to finish. I also don’t care if you have a PowerPoint presentation or a cute rendering. Come up with a plan to do stuff.
Fiberglass fenders are light and provide the clearance we need for the class - and they are sponsored, so if they get hit in the rocks that is okay. I cannot see any logic on how hacking up sheet metal fenders is a better idea.

We have a solid team and plan. And see the post above - we have a ton of stuff in progress.

Finally, and I’ll be honest - it takes time to keep build threads up like these. If the majority of the posts are going to be griping and complaining without any real suggestions, feedback, or ideas, I’ll be happy to spend my time on Toyota forum build threads and Social Media (which is all that matters to my sponsors from a product promotional perspective) instead. I'm as anxious as anyone to tear into this thing.
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Old 07-18-2018, 08:05 PM   #167 (permalink)
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there is plenty of suggestions and feedback and ideas going around.

I'll 3rd that i was surprised to see fiberglass for the fenders, whatever no skin off my back.

Also, x3 or x4 on getting good at winching. you will be happier to engage the ARB before you 'need' it on the rocks. getting stuck when atrac fails and then engaging might not be the faster, overall, approach. winch early and often.
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Old 07-18-2018, 08:35 PM   #168 (permalink)
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I am agreeing with others on atrac ,abs and any other electronic traction aid that uses the brakes for somthing like this. You are going to be racing against time yet you want to use the brakes for a traction aid You need to take this runner out and do some pretend racing and beat it like you hate it and see how it reacts to certain conditions. What are the plans for rear quarters ? Are tires going to rub since they are flat tops ? If you have to cut them may as well cut the front. Quite sure there is a tool you can use to put a flange back on after its cut , it is similar to a door skin crimper , kind of like a bead flange roller .
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Old 07-18-2018, 08:38 PM   #169 (permalink)
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And I'm pretty certain there won't be much mud at JV in Feb.
I really feel like you know damn near nothing about koh.
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Old 07-18-2018, 08:46 PM   #170 (permalink)
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I really feel like you know damn near nothing about koh.
Ayup
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Old 07-18-2018, 08:50 PM   #171 (permalink)
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Old 07-18-2018, 09:05 PM   #172 (permalink)
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I really feel like you know damn near nothing about koh.
My feeling exactly.

Have you ever watched a race to see the punishment this thing will need to endure? Strength and reliability are 90%.

In also sure you know damn near nothing about pirate4x4. Nobody here gives a shit to see pics of plastic fenders or read your justifications about why this "build thread" has no build in it. You'll get no reach around here for buying a winch or installing an o2 sensor like you will on face space. Were on 7 pages of the gay now.
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Old 07-18-2018, 11:20 PM   #173 (permalink)
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Finally, and Iíll be honest - it takes time to keep build threads up like these. If the majority of the posts are going to be griping and complaining without any real suggestions, feedback, or ideas, Iíll be happy to spend my time on Social Media (which is all that counts) and Toyota forum build threads instead.
Get the fuck outta here with that shit. If that is truly "all that counts", you're not building to race. You're bolting on because you like smoke blown up your ass.

Plenty of people have offered advice and you're being an askhole.
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Old 07-19-2018, 05:13 AM   #174 (permalink)
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Sweet thread! Fawk I thought JK guys were bad.
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Old 07-19-2018, 05:37 AM   #175 (permalink)
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Guys, this Charles is just the money guy/keyboard jockey for this build. He is a bolt-on type guy and will be sending this out to get built by someone else. Which means he doesnt really have a clue on what he is doing. He also seems to ignore some pretty good advice given in this thread, but since PBB isnt fagbook, he doesnt give a shit. Good luck Charles, youre going to need it.
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