Steel City Racing: King of the Hammers 2019 Toyota 4Runner IFS 4600 Build Thread - Page 8 - Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum
 
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Old 07-19-2018, 05:44 AM   #176 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Black Sheep View Post
Get the fuck outta here with that shit. If that is truly "all that counts", you're not building to race. You're bolting on because you like smoke blown up your ass.

Plenty of people have offered advice and you're being an askhole.
I agree. Social Media is definitely one thing that is completely irrelevant to KOH.
My guess is most mouthbreathers on SM don't even know what KOH is.
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Old 07-19-2018, 08:15 AM   #177 (permalink)
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there is plenty of suggestions and feedback and ideas going around.

I'll 3rd that i was surprised to see fiberglass for the fenders, whatever no skin off my back.

Also, x3 or x4 on getting good at winching. you will be happier to engage the ARB before you 'need' it on the rocks. getting stuck when atrac fails and then engaging might not be the faster, overall, approach. winch early and often.
Solid feedback. Here were my thoughts on the fenders:
1) Easiest way to get significant tire clearance within the 4600 rules:

- "Front inner fenders must be complete and unmodified, with the following limitations and exceptions: outer fenders (wheel well openings) may be trimmed for the single and exclusive purpose of allowing for tire clearance. Modifications to the outer fenders must preserve the look of the stock wheel wells, as originally manufactured, and must not be trimmed excessively (no more than a 2" gap between any part of the outer fender and the tire at full compression)."
- "Front outer fenders may be replaced with OEM-style aftermarket fenders (flared fiberglass fenders are permitted)."

2) Much lower chance of a tire puncture than bent sheet metal (due to rocks or suspension flex/over-travel in race conditions)
3) 4.5" Bulge provides tire coverage for the expanded WMS at the front (3-4" wider than stock on each side)
4) If we destroy them in the race, it's easy to remove damaged portions
5) They are extremely light

Agreed on the winching. My co-driver at EMC is a Fireman and Paramedic and are both avid cross fit guys, so we're in shape and good at winching.

On the locker - Ex. We'll have the front locker off using ATRAC to the bottom of Jack North. Once we start going up, we'll proactively engage the Front ARB. At the top, we'll turn it back off.
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Old 07-19-2018, 08:17 AM   #178 (permalink)
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I am agreeing with others on atrac ,abs and any other electronic traction aid that uses the brakes for somthing like this. You are going to be racing against time yet you want to use the brakes for a traction aid You need to take this runner out and do some pretend racing and beat it like you hate it and see how it reacts to certain conditions. What are the plans for rear quarters ? Are tires going to rub since they are flat tops ? If you have to cut them may as well cut the front. Quite sure there is a tool you can use to put a flange back on after its cut , it is similar to a door skin crimper , kind of like a bead flange roller .
Good feedback. We'll be testing the crap out of it on site at JV. If ATRAC is a hinderance, it'll be cut.

Rear quarters will be trimmed to fit once we get the 4-link on. I'm sure we'll be using that tool to put the flange back on.
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Old 07-19-2018, 08:21 AM   #179 (permalink)
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Get the fuck outta here with that shit. If that is truly "all that counts", you're not building to race. You're bolting on because you like smoke blown up your ass.

Plenty of people have offered advice and you're being an askhole.
I edited and clarified the post. From a promotional perspective, my sponsors care about Social Media over build threads. That's where they sell and promote their product. From what I can tell, Social Media has replaced build threads from a sponsorship perspective.

From my countless discussions with them, their priorities are:
1) Perform on Race Day. Period. Finish, and hope to Win. Nothing else matters if it breaks a few miles in.
2) Get Good Promotion on Social Media before and during the race.
3) Look professional pulling up to the starting line, but know that it'll be damaged afterward.

This build would not happen without my team and my sponsors.
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Old 07-19-2018, 08:31 AM   #180 (permalink)
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I agree. Social Media is definitely one thing that is completely irrelevant to KOH.
My guess is most mouthbreathers on SM don't even know what KOH is.
55,000 Followers here:
https://www.instagram.com/ultra4racing/?hl=en

And 50,000 Followers here:
https://www.facebook.com/Ultra4Racing/

And 225,000 Likes here:
https://www.facebook.com/KingofTheHammers/

Add the sponsors' SM pages (Monster Energy, Nitto, Optima Batteries, Griffin, 4WheelParts, etc) and you're far into in the Millions.

Look, I'm not a big social media fan either. I didn't have Facebook or Instagram pages until I started this build.
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Old 07-19-2018, 08:33 AM   #181 (permalink)
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Old 07-19-2018, 09:11 AM   #182 (permalink)
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You've never mentioned what your experience level was with Johnson Valley? You mentioned in one of your first posts about having been out there for the race one time, but how much actual wheeling have you done out there? Not trying to be a dick just asking.

I feel like your biggest issue isn't necessarily going to be to build the vehicle in 27 weeks, but to build it, get it out there, test it, fix/rebuild/redesign, get back out there for the race. There's a lot of wasted travel time for you coming from the east coast, and its just time consuming to test and repair.

Have you driven all the trails that are normally on the course? I wouldn't even consider racing until I had driven all the trails normally on the courses first. I think it was Miller that comes out for a week in november to test? I'm guessing it takes 4-5days to get out there, a week to test, 4-5 days to get back. Then its teardown and prep for a couple months, and back out for the race. It just takes a lot of time and your at a severe disadvantage coming from the east.

Keep at it, but be realistic with your expectations. Just being at the start line come feb would be a huge win at this point.

Kevin
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Old 07-19-2018, 09:42 AM   #183 (permalink)
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I've raced KOH a few times and know a little about getting sponsors. Some sponsors just look at numbers on SM, some want a car that's going to cross the finish line, and some like a good relationship with the car. The fact that you've never raced and have a few people giving you parts. Means you're doing pretty good in that department.

I wouldn't worry much about running the trails. The trails run in the stock class are about as easy as they get, and change after every car comes through. So other than looking for bypasses. No need to prerun unless you have a spare car to prerun in. I've never once preran the course in my actual race car.

Mud? I've never seen mud on the course other that a short section of the lakebed or sitting in the pits. It's never a factor in the race.

I'd also keep it simple and just run the ARB locker.
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Old 07-19-2018, 02:34 PM   #184 (permalink)
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I wasn't suggesting mud would be an issue, the fact that he was *certain* there won't be mud was just funny. I remember one of the early years where it pored and a few people got stuck in the mud on a lake bed on the race course also, many people had a hard time getting their tow rigs out.

The fact that using a factory traction control system is even an option shows how silly this build really is. I feel like he's going to cry when it gets destroyed on the first run.
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Old 07-19-2018, 02:42 PM   #185 (permalink)
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There is a picture in one of the brake threads with an unlimited car and all 4 rotors glowing red. Wasn't a KOH race but it was dry and dusty and basically the dust was building up to the point that to have functioning brakes meant running with the pads in contact with the rotors constantly to keep them clean so they wouldn't just slide on dust marbles for a bit.

what kind of potential does that have for causing issue for ATRAC that relies on the braking system to finesse traction through the open carrier? Is that even a concern for a 'stock class' rig?

I dunno, just a thought that popped into my head. I don't think he will cry when it doesn't work, seems like it would be an easily defeated system (cut a couple wires and roll on) if it does turn out to be an issue
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Old 07-19-2018, 04:03 PM   #186 (permalink)
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Looks good.

Maybe I missed it but when will it be race ready?
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Old 07-19-2018, 04:34 PM   #187 (permalink)
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Great discussions. Gonna keep the responses short:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghetto Fab. View Post
You've never mentioned what your experience level was with Johnson Valley? Not trying to be a dick just asking.
I've personally never driven the Hammers trails. Our plan is to be on site in late Nov, Dec, and early Jan to Test, Tune, and Revise. Marlin and RockSolidToys have lined up a professional tuner to be there with us. And I'll have a long time KOH veteran there with us to drive the trails and portions of the course to "show us the ropes". He'll also be driving the rig himself to put it through it's paces. More to come on this later...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghetto Fab. View Post
I'm guessing it takes 4-5days to get out there, a week to test, 4-5 days to get back. Then its teardown and prep for a couple months, and back out for the race. It just takes a lot of time and your at a severe disadvantage coming from the east.

Keep at it, but be realistic with your expectations. Just being at the start line come feb would be a huge win at this point.
Yeah, this wouldn't work. When I drive the vehicle to CA in Aug, it'll stay there through KOH. I travel a ton for work, so I'll be using points to fly back and forth. I can work from anywhere, so I'll be there for days/weeks at a time, if needed. But a lot will of fab work and testing happen to the rig while I'm not there under the team's supervision.

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Originally Posted by hurleygo3 View Post
I've raced KOH a few times and know a little about getting sponsors. Some sponsors just look at numbers on SM, some want a car that's going to cross the finish line, and some like a good relationship with the car. The fact that you've never raced and have a few people giving you parts. Means you're doing pretty good in that department.

I wouldn't worry much about running the trails. The trails run in the stock class are about as easy as they get, and change after every car comes through. So other than looking for bypasses. No need to prerun unless you have a spare car to prerun in. I've never once preran the course in my actual race car.

Mud? I've never seen mud on the course other that a short section of the lakebed or sitting in the pits. It's never a factor in the race.

I'd also keep it simple and just run the ARB locker.
Great advice as always. The bypasses were huge for 4600 last year.

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The fact that using a factory traction control system is even an option shows how silly this build really is. I feel like he's going to cry when it gets destroyed on the first run.
Trying to keep ATRAC is a recommendation our team received from ~5 KOH/Offroad Experts. If it doesn't work - it was worth a try and we'll turn it off with the flip of a switch (see below).

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I dunno, just a thought that popped into my head. I don't think he will cry when it doesn't work, seems like it would be an easily defeated system (cut a couple wires and roll on) if it does turn out to be an issue
Yes, we'll be putting in a switch that allows us to turn ATRAC on and off. Note that it automatically disables at 3000 RPMs regardless.

Disable VSC, TRAC, and ABS without damaging factory wiring - Toyota 4Runner Forum - Largest 4Runner Forum

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Originally Posted by Corey Young View Post
Looks good.

Maybe I missed it but when will it be race ready?
Aiming for testing to start after Thanksgiving, mid-Dec as a back-up. The timeline is touch-and-go given 4-5 critical parts are in "prototype" stage, but I trust my team - they are the best in the business.
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Old 07-19-2018, 08:07 PM   #188 (permalink)
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We've thought about the Tundra 9" diff for a while now. I just wonder how much stronger it'd be and if we can even fit it.



And remember we're running a ARBs front and rear. We're just trying to keep ATRAC so we can save the ARB for only when we need it to help keep wear and tear down on the front diff.



And I'm pretty certain there won't be much mud at JV in Feb.

The first time I went to KOH it rained/snowed a lot one of the days and those dry lake beds are not always dry. It can be a perfect warm sunny day or it can snow, in the same week. Not saying you will end up in quicksand like I did, that was special.

I have never raced in KOH but I have a little desert racing experience and driven more than 10,000 miles on surfaces other than asphalt (conservative estimate from more than 18 years of at least one ~1000 mi trip per year) in many different trucks. All of them that had ABS ended up with a delete mod because it has an extremely negative affect on stopping distance on any surface that isnít asphalt. Your precious ATRAC will not work if the ABS isnít working and the ABS will cause you to smash into something you do not want to hit when you drive at race speeds. Even Ford recognizes that ABS must be desensitized on dirt and several modes on my Gen 2 Raptor significantly reduced ABS function, but personally it still had a little too much intrusion, no matter which mode it was in. I donít know who your experts are but given the information you are relaying about their advice, I would pass on any of related to computer controlled brakes.

I fully understand that an open diff is much easier on the drivetrain from personal experience. You want to race KOH, I have never observed terrain that is harder on equipment, it grinds holes in differentials! The ARB is the best choice you could make because it is open or locked. Lock it when you need real 4 wheel drive open when you donít. 2-1/2 wheel drive from brake drag might help a little in a few situations but it is not worth keeping ABS to have it.

I sure would love to see some actual build tec on this thread will pictures, as I am rather fond of Toyotas.


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Old 07-19-2018, 08:18 PM   #189 (permalink)
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Great discussions. Gonna keep the responses short:



I've personally never driven the Hammers trails. Our plan is to be on site in late Nov, Dec, and early Jan to Test, Tune, and Revise. Marlin and RockSolidToys have lined up a professional tuner to be there with us. And I'll have a long time KOH veteran there with us to drive the trails and portions of the course to "show us the ropes". He'll also be driving the rig himself to put it through it's paces. More to come on this later...



Yeah, this wouldn't work. When I drive the vehicle to CA in Aug, it'll stay there through KOH. I travel a ton for work, so I'll be using points to fly back and forth. I can work from anywhere, so I'll be there for days/weeks at a time, if needed. But a lot will of fab work and testing happen to the rig while I'm not there under the team's supervision.



Great advice as always. The bypasses were huge for 4600 last year.



Trying to keep ATRAC is a recommendation our team received from ~5 KOH/Offroad Experts. If it doesn't work - it was worth a try and we'll turn it off with the flip of a switch (see below).



Yes, we'll be putting in a switch that allows us to turn ATRAC on and off. Note that it automatically disables at 3000 RPMs regardless.

Disable VSC, TRAC, and ABS without damaging factory wiring - Toyota 4Runner Forum - Largest 4Runner Forum



Aiming for testing to start after Thanksgiving, mid-Dec as a back-up. The timeline is touch-and-go given 4-5 critical parts are in "prototype" stage, but I trust my team - they are the best in the business.


I reviewed that thread and confirmed my suspicions, you have to cycle the vehicle power to reset the system once you turn your switch on to disable the nannies and then want them back. Exactly what I had to do on my Tundra, except I wasnít in a race so cycling the ignition didnít matter if I wanted computer controlled brake drag.


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Old 07-19-2018, 10:50 PM   #190 (permalink)
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Old 07-19-2018, 11:11 PM   #191 (permalink)
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Old 07-20-2018, 08:40 AM   #192 (permalink)
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I reviewed that thread and confirmed my suspicions, you have to cycle the vehicle power to reset the system once you turn your switch on to disable the nannies and then want them back. Exactly what I had to do on my Tundra, except I wasnít in a race so cycling the ignition didnít matter if I wanted computer controlled brake drag.
Yeah, I saw that too. Checking to see if there is a way around it...
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Old 07-20-2018, 08:44 AM   #193 (permalink)
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Your precious ATRAC will not work if the ABS isnít working and the ABS will cause you to smash into something you do not want to hit when you drive at race speeds.
Yes, the plan is to disable VSC and TRAC, but have ATRAC selectable. Essentially tricking the vehicle to think ABS is still there so we can use ATRAC on demand. If this is impossible, ATRAC will be scrapped immediately.

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The ARB is the best choice you could make because it is open or locked. Lock it when you need real 4 wheel drive open when you donít.
Agreed - ARB F/R is locked in.
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Old 07-20-2018, 08:50 AM   #194 (permalink)
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Took measurements of the cargo area stripped down for the fuel cell and spare tire last night. I'm thinking fuel cell on the platform just behind the rear seats today (removed for KOH) and spare standing straight up or slanted 45 deg toward the front over the rear portion of the cell.

The fuel cell area behind the seats is 42 W x 26 D.

The spare tire area behind the cell before the liftgate is 58 W x 14 D

Max vertical height 39" in center, min right at Liftgate 35.5" - will likely gain another 1" with full teardown.





We'll be using Alltech baffles - no foam. Researching fuel cells later today.
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Old 07-20-2018, 11:53 AM   #195 (permalink)
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Haven't had a ton of time to search, but there seem to be really cheap and really expensive fuel cells. Jaz Pro Sport II seems to be right in the middle with good reviews.

Wide & Short 22 Gal (34-1/2"L, 18-3/4"W, 10-1/2"H):
https://www.jegs.com/i/JAZ/547/280-1...hoCCYYQAvD_BwE

Wide & Short 32 Gal (34"L, 17-3/8"W, 14-3/8"H):
https://www.jegs.com/i/JAZ/547/280-0...RoCJiUQAvD_BwE

I can fit either and Artec makes a nice mount for both.

I can see the need for a 32 Gal cell with a blown LS that gets 3-4 MPG. But we're using a slightly modified 4.7L Toyota V8.

- Is the extra capacity of the 32 Gal needed and worth the extra weight?
- Is there high probability that I'm going to need more than 22 Gal between pits at KOH or other Ultra4 races, Mint 400, or even Baja if that dream ever comes true?
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Old 07-20-2018, 11:57 AM   #196 (permalink)
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Haven't had a ton of time to search, but there seem to be really cheap and really expensive fuel cells. Jaz Pro Sport II seems to be right in the middle with good reviews.

Wide & Short 22 Gal (34-1/2"L, 18-3/4"W, 10-1/2"H):
https://www.kartek.com/parts/jaz-pro...4w-10-12h.html

Wide & Short 32 Gal (34"L, 17-3/8"W, 14-3/8"H):
https://www.kartek.com/parts/jaz-pro...8w-14-38h.html

I can fit either and Artec makes a nice mount for both.

I can see the need for a 32 Gal cell with a blown LS that gets 3-4 MPG. But we're using a slightly modified 4.7L Toyota V8.

- Is the extra capacity of the 32 Gal needed and worth the extra weight?
- Is there high probability that I'm going to need more than 22 Gal between pits at KOH or other Ultra4 races, Mint 400, or even Baja if that dream ever comes true?
Baffles will chew up the inside of the JAZ cells and plug filters. Baffles don't break down like foam. But still have their issues. You have to make sure you pack the cell full of baffles, and make sure if you are running internal pumps to protect the wires from the baffles.
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Old 07-20-2018, 12:01 PM   #197 (permalink)
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How many mpg do you think you are going to get at race pace? How many miles do you want to be able to go between fill ups?

For baja, I would get the 32. Not as sure about koh.
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Old 07-20-2018, 12:12 PM   #198 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by hurleygo3 View Post
Baffles will chew up the inside of the JAZ cells and plug filters. Baffles don't break down like foam. But still have their issues. You have to make sure you pack the cell full of baffles, and make sure if you are running internal pumps to protect the wires from the baffles.
I'd be packing in 2-3 sets of these:
No2Foam – Just say NO 2 Foam

Good advice on the pumps and wiring.
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Old 07-20-2018, 12:19 PM   #199 (permalink)
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How many mpg do you think you are going to get at race pace? How many miles do you want to be able to go between fill ups?

For baja, I would get the 32. Not as sure about koh.
Only a guess at this point. Stock 2016 V8 MPG is 17/20. Cut that in half for race conditions and power modifications we've done. Maybe 8-10 MPG. 5 MPG worst case scenario.

- 10 MPG and 22 Gal = 220 Miles
- 5 MPG and 22 Gal = 110 Miles

- 10 MPG and 32 Gal = 320 Miles
- 5 MPG and 32 Gal = 160 Miles

2018 KOH Total Distance:
4400 = 202 Miles
4500 / 4800 = 136 Miles
4600 = 124 Miles (us)

Given the Main and Remote Pits - Even at 5 MPG I don't see how I need more than a 22 Gal cell right? What am I missing?

If I ever get to race it at Baja, that's a great excuse to upgrade to 32 Gal.
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Last edited by Charles4x4; 07-20-2018 at 12:21 PM.
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Old 07-20-2018, 01:03 PM   #200 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles4x4 View Post
Only a guess at this point. Stock 2016 V8 MPG is 17/20. Cut that in half for race conditions and power modifications we've done. Maybe 8-10 MPG. 5 MPG worst case scenario.

- 10 MPG and 22 Gal = 220 Miles
- 5 MPG and 22 Gal = 110 Miles

- 10 MPG and 32 Gal = 320 Miles
- 5 MPG and 32 Gal = 160 Miles

2018 KOH Total Distance:
4400 = 202 Miles
4500 / 4800 = 136 Miles
4600 = 124 Miles (us)

Given the Main and Remote Pits - Even at 5 MPG I don't see how I need more than a 22 Gal cell right? What am I missing?

If I ever get to race it at Baja, that's a great excuse to upgrade to 32 Gal.
I raced this year with a 12 gallon cell. 22 gal with your motor setup will be fine.
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Mike Johnson #43 7 time EMC KOH finisher, 6 top 5's
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