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Old 08-22-2019, 02:06 AM   #1 (permalink)
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22RE Running Rich - trying to diagnose

Long story short - trying to get my '85 truck to pass smog, and have had it fail twice now. Ex stock class race truck in my sig...

First time I had it fail all three on the sniffer, but just barely - HC, CO and NO. Got a new catalytic put on (old one failed the temp test and was giving a whiff of sulfur from time to time), and actually did a tune-up on it - new denso plugs, cap/rotor, clean air filter, even did an oil change just for the hell of it. Fresh fuel, and failed the smog test a second time.

Now the HC and CO levels are even higher, but NO is virtually nothing - see attached pic.

Smog tech seems to know what he's doing, and told me it's failing because it's running way to rich. I did notice the old plugs looked dark/fuely so that makes sense. Now I'm just trying to figure out why, and hoping to hear what Pirate thinks.

What I've done so far:
Tested my AFM - three of them actually - according to this link:
https://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTr...FM/index.shtml

According to the tests on that page, my results are in the attached pic. My first issue is that I have three different AFMs that are failing both the static and dynamic tests. All three are giving me a Open Loop reading for test #4, which should have been showing me 2k-3k. For the dynamic test, all three were giving me OL at different points throughout the range of motion for the flapper valve, where it looks like it should stay between 20 and 1,000? Wide open it looks like I should be seeing a number closer to 1,000 but all three are giving me a reading closer to 300...

If I were to buy a new one, Rock Auto is out of stock, Napa has one for $190, or Oreilly's has them for $145. I don't think I've ever had a problem (that I knew of) with an AFM, so seems odd that I have three bad ones - all came off of running trucks.

Other than that, I tested the fuel pressure at the fuel rail to make sure it wasn't over pressurizing. 36 psi with pump running but engine off, 27 psi with the engine idling. The psi at the rail does not change if I plug the vaccuum line going to it - so maybe vsv or whatever switch that vacuum line plugs into is bad. Going to bring home a vacuum pump tomorrow to see if I can't test that more. 27 psi seems a little low, but doesn't seem like that'd make it run rich, and engine runs and drives great, so not really concerned about that.

Cold start injector has 3.6 ohms resistance, which puts it in spec according to FSM. Sprays just fine if I apply power to it, doesn't leak at all with the fuel pump running and no power.

Shop that smogged it kept mentioning the o2 sensor. I run a TG 50-state-legal header and the sticker that comes with it, which has an o2 sensor bung pulling from cylinders 3 and 4 only. Stock or Denso sensor will not work with this header, as the 'snout' bottoms out before mounting flanges mate up, so I made a spacer that I've been running on it during the first failed smog test. Before the 2nd failed smog test I removed the semi new Denso o2 sensor and spacer and replaced with a new Bosch that has a shorter snout, even through I try to stick to Denso for sensors and plugs.

My problem with moving the o2 sensor is that it'd require me to weld another bung and probably have to go with a 4 wire heated sensor - technically I think that'd fail me on the visual for a smog test if it was noticed. BUT, for a smog legal header that has been sold to thousands of people, I haven't really heard of that being an issue (nor should it be unless it's a flawed design). One thing I just thought of is I did lengthen the wiring for the o2 sensor - don't know if that's supposed to be some sort of shielded wire that could be causing an issue - will have to check into that...

Just thought I'd see if anyone had any thoughts. Truck seems to run and drive great, although I do hear a slight miss during idle and under throttle, which could definitely be a symptom of running rich. Engine/truck are pretty damn clean - no leaks or seaps. Most of the sensors and anything rubber under the hood are damn near new OEM hoses. Thermo time switch is semi new from 22re Performance, although may have to check the temp sensor right next to it...

That's all I can think of for now - any thoughts or solutions? I'm THIS close to getting this thing street legal. All this truck has done since I built it is off road miles and stock class races Looking forward to flexing it out at the mall...
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Old 08-22-2019, 02:13 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Engine Bay (older pic):




o2 Spacer (now removed):




Testing AFMs earlier tonight:
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Old 08-22-2019, 02:52 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Is the shorter intake path and free flowing filter causing the engine to realize more air and fatten the injector or widen the pulse width? Is the oil in the UNI filter being sucked into the engine and causing the rich problem? Just thinking out loud...

my 2 pennies.
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Old 08-22-2019, 05:24 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Can you read o2 sensor voltage during the tests?
Its nice to read along side the smog number for diag sake.
I used to run a downey header and it basically sampled the same way. Never caused an issue.
You may have a leaky injector or weak wire/plug.


Edit: single wire o2 uses shielded wire. You cant just splice it. If you do, you will basically ground the signal this will show the ecm a lean condition.
The wire can be spliced but its actually like two wires.
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Old 08-22-2019, 06:31 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Dirty plugs = injectors leaking/spraying extra fuel?
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Old 08-22-2019, 11:31 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jhama78 View Post
Is the shorter intake path and free flowing filter causing the engine to realize more air and fatten the injector or widen the pulse width? Is the oil in the UNI filter being sucked into the engine and causing the rich problem? Just thinking out loud...
Those are certainly possibilities, although the pic I showed of the engine bay is old - currently I have EGR, extra vacuum lines, charcoal canister and stock air intake installed to pass smog. Also, intake tube and throttle body are dry and clean inside. I probably should test the tps to make sure that it's clocked correctly, although when I jump the diagnostic port it idles down as it should. TPS should be working correctly if that's happening, although I suppose it could still be clocked wrong TPS was brand new OEM that I bought and installed within the past few years...


Quote:
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Can you read o2 sensor voltage during the tests?
Its nice to read along side the smog number for diag sake.
I used to run a downey header and it basically sampled the same way. Never caused an issue.
You may have a leaky injector or weak wire/plug.
o2 sensor voltage - I'll have to look up how to do that, but I'll try. I'm under the impression that this is the exact same design as the Downey header...

Injectors - A few years ago I had injectors all cleaned/tested by 22REP, but then my fuel cell foam melted and plugged all 4 with foam particles. Once I realized that I just swapped them all with the injectors that came with this engine when I bought it. Condition unknown, but rebuild was pretty recent and everything on the engine was done right. I was just thinking last night maybe I should pull them out and send them in to get cleaned/flow tested, but would prefer to rule out another issue first if possible. Before I start pulling things apart and replacing without knowing. Wouldn't hurt to send them in though...

Injector plug - before I figured out my fuel cell foam melted, I pulled the entire wiring harness all apart on the bench and replaced anything that was damaged (there were some terrible solder splices hidden in there ). At the same time I replaced all 4 injector plugs with brand new. Afterwards, I tested every single wire in the harness for continuity all the way back to the computer to verify that there was no wire damage So I think wiring is all in pretty good shape...


Quote:
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Edit: single wire o2 uses shielded wire. You cant just splice it. If you do, you will basically ground the signal this will show the ecm a lean condition.
The wire can be spliced but its actually like two wires.
Attached pic shows current o2 setup (including Denso o2 that I zip tied out of the way). Wire pigtail out of the sensor is not modified, but you can see my splice just after the plug. Looks like regular wire to me? How can I tell if it's shielded? I vaguely remember dealing with that stuff at one point - feel like it was wrapped with another strand of wire, but can't remember if it was inside the insulation or not...


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Dirty plugs = injectors leaking/spraying extra fuel?
Very possible - touched on that above, but if I verify that nothing else is really standing out as being a glaring issue, might just pull them and send them in to be rebuilt... They're definitely spraying more fuel than they should, but the question is whether that's an injector problem or a computer/sensor problem...


Not sure if I'll have time tonight, but thinking next maybe I'll figure out how to test the temp sensor next to the thermo time switch - I believe that's what controls the cold start injector. OR, just leave the cold start injector hooked up and pull it out of the intake. Tape intake up so it sealed and just run the truck to make sure it's not injecting fuel when it shouldn't be? Not sure if that makes sense or not...
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Old 08-22-2019, 11:48 AM   #7 (permalink)
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There's silver braided shielding under there.
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Old 08-22-2019, 12:02 PM   #8 (permalink)
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So is that just between o2 and plug? Or between plug and computer - how far back is it supposed to go?

edit: So according to google that shielded wire should be grounded to ECU and could affect performance, not just to keep Skynyrd coming in clear on the radio. Maybe that's my problem Or at least one of my problems...

edit2: So the one-wire pigtail comes out of the o2 sensor and runs to a plug with only 1 pin. If there is a shrouding wire around the wire pigtail, there's no way it could connect to the shrouding wire on the other side of a 1-pin plug - right? So is the shrouding wire only important between the plug and ecu? Just thinking out loud here, will cut apart later to check... I only extended that wire about 10" or so and would imagine I could resplice both the main wire and shrouding wire if it has those...
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Old 08-22-2019, 01:35 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I had the same issue with my co2 wire and came to the same conclusion that it's a 1 wire pin so how can there be 2 wires on it? I'm confused as well..
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Old 08-22-2019, 02:20 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Its just between the plug and ecu.
Go to the test connector and see if ox has continuity to ground.
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Old 08-22-2019, 03:56 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Its just between the plug and ecu.
Go to the test connector and see if ox has continuity to ground.
Test connector?
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Old 08-22-2019, 04:10 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Sorry. I forgot those are those plugs to nothing on the front left inner.
Just unplug sensor and check there, the vehicle side,
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Old 08-22-2019, 08:14 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Dumping too much fuel. Check the temp sensor that controls the cold start injector and also check for a vacuum leak. Battery connections clean and tight? I fixed a gross polluter once just by cleaning all the corrosion off the battery and cables and changing the ends
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Old 08-23-2019, 02:47 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Go to the test connector and see if ox has continuity to ground.
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Sorry. I forgot those are those plugs to nothing on the front left inner.
Just unplug sensor and check there, the vehicle side,
Sorry, not following fully - I'm not actually that great at testing electrical issues. Looks like you're saying to test the test connector for continuity to ground, which is a two pin connector (assuming you mean the same one you jump pin to pin and kill vacuum advance to set timing).

Which pin do I test, or either or both? One probe in test pin terminal, one probe to ground, and see if it gives me an Open Loop reading on the meter?
Whether is does or doesn't, what does that tell me?

I'm aware I may be missing the point completely or misreading...



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Dumping too much fuel. Check the temp sensor that controls the cold start injector and also check for a vacuum leak. Battery connections clean and tight? I fixed a gross polluter once just by cleaning all the corrosion off the battery and cables and changing the ends
Batt and terminals look brand new - all the wiring on this truck is in good shape, and I've got vacuum. I'll be doing more to check cold start injector and temp sensor tonight...
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Old 08-23-2019, 02:54 PM   #15 (permalink)
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There are actually two plugs. The two pin is the check light flash. The single is the o2.

set DMM to continuity, one probe to batt ground, test other end with other probe.
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Old 08-23-2019, 03:27 PM   #16 (permalink)
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There are actually two plugs. The two pin is the check light flash. The single is the o2.

set DMM to continuity, one probe to batt ground, test other end with other probe.
Ok, I understand that - I still have those two plugs in the stock spot and will test later today. What does that test tell me? If I get an Open Loop result from that test, the o2 sensor is testing as good? o2 sensor and wiring are both testing as good?

I wouldn't consider myself overly proficient at electrical testing, so thanks for your input
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Old 08-23-2019, 05:46 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Exactly. Test should show open.
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Old 08-25-2019, 02:53 PM   #18 (permalink)
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You might also want to disconnect the harness into the computer as well, that way its not finding a ground path through the computer. Then you have the O2 circuit completly isolated.

If your meter shows an open circuit you are good to go. However, if there is any continuity to ground, then that wire is shorting to ground somewhere. If its shorting to ground then the computer is getting a false signal, and shorting to ground would cause the computer to want to drive the engine rich.

I was just talking to a friend of mine with another 85 4runner and this similar issue. Backprobing the O2 wire at the computer to see what the computer is reading might answer some questions. He mentioned that unplugging his O2 seems to fix the issue and the truck will idle normally. Is your ECU a reman unit? He mentioned that in his research that seems to be a common theme, truck idles like shit and has a reman ECU.

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Old 08-25-2019, 06:36 PM   #19 (permalink)
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There are actually two plugs. The two pin is the check light flash. The single is the o2.

set DMM to continuity, one probe to batt ground, test other end with other probe.
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Originally Posted by Ghetto Fab. View Post
You might also want to disconnect the harness into the computer as well, that way its not finding a ground path through the computer. Then you have the O2 circuit completly isolated.

If your meter shows an open circuit you are good to go. However, if there is any continuity to ground, then that wire is shorting to ground somewhere. If its shorting to ground then the computer is getting a false signal, and shorting to ground would cause the computer to want to drive the engine rich.

I was just talking to a friend of mine with another 85 4runner and this similar issue. Backprobing the O2 wire at the computer to see what the computer is reading might answer some questions. He mentioned that unplugging his O2 seems to fix the issue and the truck will idle normally. Is your ECU a reman unit? He mentioned that in his research that seems to be a common theme, truck idles like shit and has a reman ECU.

Kevin
My ECU is stock out of my '85 4Runner, and my engine is idling just fine - idle is nice and smooth, power is good while driving, etc. Feels like the best running 22re I've had, and even with 4.10 gears and 35s I can pull 70-75 on the freeway and it doesn't feel too bad at all. All I notice is a very subtle, slight miss or maybe detonation in the exhaust - subtle enough that it's barely recognizable. If I'd passed smog I wouldn't be trying to figure anything out here - just running rich enough to fail me on the sniffer test.

I do think there's a high possibility that I've got an o2 issue and will look into it more tonight if I have time. Although I'm not seeing a single-pin test plug anywhere in my engine bay. Don't know if you guys are talking about the actual plug that the o2 sensor plugs into or ??

On the harness side of the plug that plugs into the ecu, what if I just test the pin for the o2 sensor - or does that even make sense?


Back to the afm - has anyone else reading this tested their AFM according to the test on Roger Brown's site? Link in a previous post. What were your test results? Mainly, has anyone done the dynamic test measuring for resistance between E2-VS as they slowly open the AFM air valve? It looks like it's supposed to slowly go up numerically without showing open circuit at all. Straight off RB's website:

"On test #2, you should see the resistance generally increase as the AFM plate is moved from closed to open, but it may not be in a smooth linear fashion. The resistor track in the AFM is laser trimmed for calibration at the factory and you may see sections where the resistance first increases, the drops down a little before increasing some more. What you want to watch for are places where the resistance drops below 20 or above 1000 ohms (for example if it goes to infinite/open circuit) as that would indicate a problem."


I've got three different AFMs that all do the same thing for the test and gives me open loop reading multiple times as I go from open to closed. I opened up one of the AFMs and it looks nice and clean inside, and the OL reading comes in when the little raised arm rotates over a section of the 'circuit' that is blank, if that makes sense. I cleaned up the contacts on the rotating arm, but no change... I could order a new AFM and wait over a week for it to show up, then test it the same way and see how it compares, but thought I'd check here first. I would not be surprised at all if I got the same results out of a new one... Meter is in auto range btw if it makes any difference
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Old 08-25-2019, 07:29 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Pic of o2 test plug. Sorry i haven't owned an RE powered rig in ten years, i guess there are three plugs right there. That o2 plug sometimes has a cap.

Also, i know everone loves the FSM tests, but resistance tests are basically worthless unless something is totally fucked off. You need to sample actual voltage sweep with the system powered up. (AFM test).


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Old 08-25-2019, 09:27 PM   #21 (permalink)
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If you dont find anything else wrong and are still having smog issues there is something you could try.......

Back in my automotive tech days I used to do smog checks with the sniffer probes. When I had issues with Toyotas failing emissions, like yours, with all new tune up/emissions parts I would cut open the top of the mass air flow sensor lid and play with the sensor. If I'm remembering correctly, the more the door moves over the more air the engine thinks its getting. The potentiometer under the lid can be modded into thinking it's getting more, or less air than it is and would adjust fuel accordingly. Trick the computer into thinking it's getting less air and your problem may be solved.


Derp..... Just saw the post with pics of the lid off. Easy to do now!

Last edited by SLOWPOKE693; 08-25-2019 at 09:30 PM.
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Old 08-25-2019, 11:31 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by SLOWPOKE693 View Post
If you dont find anything else wrong and are still having smog issues there is something you could try.......

Back in my automotive tech days I used to do smog checks with the sniffer probes. When I had issues with Toyotas failing emissions, like yours, with all new tune up/emissions parts I would cut open the top of the mass air flow sensor lid and play with the sensor. If I'm remembering correctly, the more the door moves over the more air the engine thinks its getting. The potentiometer under the lid can be modded into thinking it's getting more, or less air than it is and would adjust fuel accordingly. Trick the computer into thinking it's getting less air and your problem may be solved.


Derp..... Just saw the post with pics of the lid off. Easy to do now!
ditto! Watched a few salty smog techs do that to Toyotas back in the day. Like jetting for EFI.
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Old 08-26-2019, 11:42 AM   #23 (permalink)
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My ECU is stock out of my '85 4Runner, and my engine is idling just fine - idle is nice and smooth, power is good while driving, etc. Feels like the best running 22re I've had, and even with 4.10 gears and 35s I can pull 70-75 on the freeway and it doesn't feel too bad at all. All I notice is a very subtle, slight miss or maybe detonation in the exhaust - subtle enough that it's barely recognizable. If I'd passed smog I wouldn't be trying to figure anything out here - just running rich enough to fail me on the sniffer test.

I do think there's a high possibility that I've got an o2 issue and will look into it more tonight if I have time. Although I'm not seeing a single-pin test plug anywhere in my engine bay. Don't know if you guys are talking about the actual plug that the o2 sensor plugs into or ??

On the harness side of the plug that plugs into the ecu, what if I just test the pin for the o2 sensor - or does that even make sense?
Yeah, his is almost the same way. Runs and drives great, strongest 22re he's ever had, but at idle there is a definite miss in the exhaust, it smells rich, and the tailpipe is covered in soot. He's done all the obvious things with no luck, and luckily hasn't failed a smog check yet. He did mention his was worse at 1200ish rpm range. We might have to mess with the AFM as suggested here.

Yes, if you want to test to see if the O2 harness to the computer is grounded, the easiest way would be to disconnect it on both ends (sensor and computer), then hook the meter up to the now disconnected O2 sensor wire in the engine bay and battery ground. If you disconnect the harness at the computer to test and leave the O2 sensor connected it will show a ground through the sensor. You really need to disconnect both ends.

I do wonder how well the header is grounded to the block or battery. You could do a voltage drop test to see. With the engine running, hook the negative lead on your meter to the negative bat post, then touch the positive lead to the base of the O2 sensor. With the meter set to 12v dc it should read 0.00. You really want it as low as possible.

Once again, I'd really want to see what the computer is seeing for O2 sensor voltage with the engine running and then go from there.

Kevin
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Old 08-27-2019, 05:15 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Damn! once your done and got this figured out- will you help me diagnose mine 🤙🤙
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Old 08-29-2019, 07:31 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Who has an old Downey catalog?

The old Downey catalog used to have a tech piece in it that said when you did a header and cam on an efi you had to adjust the afm resistor a couple of teeth for it to smog right.

Sorry I don't remember how many or which way.
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