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Old 01-02-2006, 05:46 PM   #1 (permalink)
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4 link mocked up ...Tell me what you think

Before we get into it, keep in mind this is a TRAIL only rig.

OK,

I think I've pretty much got it laid out, here are the details

Lowers
no triangulation ( straight )
1.75 DOM
40" long eye to eye

Uppers
1.50 DOM
33" long eye to eye

5/8 x 3/4 ( 5/8 eye ) heims all around

Seperation
8" on the diff side ( eye to eye )

SIDE shot

FRONT shot
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Last edited by Chopperman; 01-02-2006 at 06:54 PM.
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Old 01-02-2006, 06:16 PM   #2 (permalink)
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what is your anti-dive?

are those pics at ride height?
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Old 01-02-2006, 06:20 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Lower the upper links a little

Make a better mount on the axle

Lookin good for a mockup
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Old 01-02-2006, 06:24 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Looks pretty decent... The vert sep at the frame looks to be pretty close to that at the axle... At the angle they're at, when pushed against a horizontal surface, this could net you an axle that wants to push the front end up somewhat before it climbs. If you can get the uppers nearly horizontal, you'd be in a better ballpark. What did the calculator numbers turn out like? Any reason the lowers are straight?

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Old 01-02-2006, 06:26 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollie
Lower the upper links a little
At the rear or on the diff ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollie
Make a better mount on the axle
It will be BEEF when it;s done, just used that to get my height.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TRD
what is your anti-dive?
I have no idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by TRD
are those pics at ride height?
YES
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Old 01-02-2006, 06:32 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I agree with rollie lower the uppers at the axle... other then that it looks good
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Old 01-02-2006, 06:36 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stomper4x4
I agree with rollie lower the uppers at the axle... other then that it looks good
Noooooooooooo. Lower them at the frame.
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Old 01-02-2006, 06:38 PM   #8 (permalink)
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If it was easy to get the lowers flatter, I would

trail rig only means I agree with everyone else about lowering the uppers at the diff
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Old 01-02-2006, 06:45 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRD
If it was easy to get the lowers flatter, I would

trail rig only means I agree with everyone else about lowering the uppers at the diff

Why not kill two birds with one stone and move the lowers up at the axle?
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Old 01-02-2006, 06:47 PM   #10 (permalink)
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how far in on the tubes are the lowers mounted on the axle?any pics of the frame mts too?? are the tires going to rub the links?

Last edited by born loser; 01-02-2006 at 06:48 PM.
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Old 01-02-2006, 07:06 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRD

trail rig only means I agree with everyone else about lowering the uppers at the diff
Why hurt the RC?
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Old 01-02-2006, 07:06 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Lower the uppers at the diff if you can, lowering it at the frame will give you to much anti-dive, and also lower the roll center hight.....
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Old 01-02-2006, 07:08 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by born loser
how far in on the tubes are the lowers mounted on the axle?any pics of the frame mts too?? are the tires going to rub the links?
They will be mounted just behind the steering stops. Tires should not rub as the pretty much follow the frame rails and I'm using 3" BS wheels and 2" spacers.

No pics of the frame mount. This is just electrical conduit tacked up so I Know where my mounts need to be. The frame mount will be your typical under frame link mount
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Old 01-02-2006, 07:12 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilson
Why not kill two birds with one stone and move the lowers up at the axle?
like dis ?

Although Stomper says lower the lowers at the diff

Even though you can't see me. I am pulling my hair out right now
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Old 01-02-2006, 07:13 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stomper4x4
Lower the uppers at the diff if you can, lowering it at the frame will give you to much anti-dive, and also lower the roll center hight.....
RC is affected a lot more by moving the uppers at the axle... Nearly 1:1 in most cases.

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Old 01-02-2006, 07:14 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopperman
like dis ?

Although Stomper says lower the lowers at the diff
That was a typo look at the post again i meant to say uppers
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Old 01-02-2006, 07:25 PM   #17 (permalink)
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You might also need a bit more triangulation up top if you are not triangulating the bottom.
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Old 01-02-2006, 07:48 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crashinaz
RC is affected a lot more by moving the uppers at the axle... Nearly 1:1 in most cases.
correct and lowering the uppers at the axle actuly lowers the rc by almost 1:1, but it will lower the Anti dive wich by judging from the pics is a bit to high plus give you some more oil pan clearence
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Old 01-02-2006, 07:55 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stomper4x4
correct and lowering the uppers at the axle actuly lowers the rc by almost 1:1, but it will lower the Anti dive wich by judging from the pics is a bit to high...
What's you opinion on rasing the lowers like I did in the above pic. I really can't lower the uppers any more, the PS link will be grinding on the driveshaft.

I tried using the calculator but just got lost. Any advise ? Also what is the latest xls version, I searched and came up with links that don't work or old versions.

Thanks
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Old 01-02-2006, 08:04 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Rasieing the lowers at the axle will also lower the AD, i sujested the uppers simpley becouse it will also give you more pan clearence, but if they will interfear with the driveshaft rasing the lowers will give you the same results..

The latest version of the Calc as far as i know is 3.0 i have it on my websitehttp://highvibesoffroad.com/drawings/4BarLinkV3.0a.zip.
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Old 01-03-2006, 02:09 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopperman
I tried using the calculator but just got lost. Any advise ? Also what is the latest xls version, I searched and came up with links that don't work or old versions.
Let's try this - first, the link pictures I am using are for a mock up, and are not final. So let's ignore the fab portion, ok?

you need to take a bunch of measurements.

First, a rough guess of the CG - One rule of thumb is to measure to the top of the bell housing.

Second, a rough guess of weight.

Get Excel, open the spreadsheet. Put the CG number in field named "Vehicle CG Height"; place the weight in Vehicle Mass. Also fill in wheelbase and Tire rolling Radius (height of tire divided by 2).

Okay, now for the measuring part. You need 12 measurements.

First, the front to rear numbers you need to look and measure from this picture:



Measure from the ground, how high the lines A, B, F are. They go through the bolts holding the links in place. The measurements are straight from the axle or ground to the mounting points; they are NOT link lengths. Run string and pull tight to each mount point if needed.

Line A is the 'Z' field of Frame End of Lower Links
Line B is the 'Z' field of Frame End of Upper Links
Line F is the 'Z' field of the Axle End of Upper Links.

Measure from the axle center line, the length of lines C, D, E and the distance from the axle center line to line F.

Line C is the 'X' field of the Frame End of the Lower Links
Line D is the 'X' field of the Frame End of the Upper Links
Line E is the 'X' field of the Axle End of the Lower Links
Line F is the 'X' field of the Axle End of the Upper Links.

Measure from G (axle center line) to the ground. One tip - I used the same number as the tire rolling radius here.

Line G is the 'Z' field of the Axle End of the Upper Links.

At this point, you are still short 4 numbers. These numbers are the distance between the links. You measure just like this picture:



Measure the length lines H, I, J and K. They go from center of link to center of link (or for ease, left side of link to left side of link on other side.)

Line H divided by 2 is the 'Y' field of the Frame End of the Upper Links
Line I divided by 2 is the 'Y' field of the Axle End of the Upper Links.
Line J divided by 2 is the 'Y' field of the Frame End of the Lower Links
Line K divided by 2 is the 'Y' field of the Axle End of the Lower Links

Fill in these into the spreadsheet, and you should see some numbers come out in the Geometry Summary.

If you check the VectorCalculations Sheet, you will find the link lengths there.
I hope this helps..
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Old 01-03-2006, 02:24 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Thanks, It defintely helps to have someone explain it in a more visual form. I'm sure others reading and searching this post will find it very helpful.

After the mixed responses I spent about 4 hours screwing with the calculator and my AS/AD is currently at 65%. If I raise the lowers up 2 inches ( as others mentioned ) it goes down to 37%, which from what I read is pretty decent for the front.

I haven't looked at all the tabs on that spreadsheet ( just the main page ), but I'll keep playing with it. Once I got it down, it was really easy to make adjustments. But IMHO, and no offense to the guys who made that spread ( it's a great tool ), a Calculator will only get you so far. I built my rear by simple ag engineering. I looked at what I had to work with and I built it. It fawking works great. It will be interesting to see how the rear looks on the calculator.
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Old 01-03-2006, 03:25 AM   #23 (permalink)
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awsome explanation tdavis...


RJ imho 2" is a bit much maybe 1-1.5" but thats just my opinion

As far as how your rear will look when you input the #s into the calc judgeing from the pic's im guessing it will come out to somewhere around mid80-mid90%.. Some say thats high some say that perfect...

The calca is a great tool, it replaces the graph papaer and complecated calculations, in some cases guess work...It gives you a IDEA of how the setup will perform before you build it...
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Old 01-03-2006, 05:57 AM   #24 (permalink)
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FWIW I would run much larger then 1.75 lowers. I would also shorten them, I am trying about 30". I wouldnt trust 3/4" heims for lowers either but thats just me.

I also like to run tons of AD in the front. I am setting my suspension up to run as much AD as I can without getting my front end to lift under severe breaking. I built my first front suspension with aprox 80% AD and kept adjusting it until it felt good. I think I wound up at aprox 130% or so (I would have to check again). I still wanted more but thats with 8" of seperation at the axle and 2" at the frame, and 2" is the least I could do at the frame and no more at the axle.
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Old 01-03-2006, 08:18 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Chopper lower the upper 1"

In the diagram above between E and F
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