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Old 01-08-2007, 05:07 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Project "Stroker Smoker", My DOA Engine Build for my 85

Tim is building me a Motor. It was not an easy decision to go this route, it ain't cheap! I always figured I'd go 4.3

Deep down inside, I want my truck to stay 22re. I know I could do many other options for the same or less money, but it would not be what I really want.

I like Tim's engines, and I have talked to enough people who have his engines and install his engines to know I am getting a great product.

What I have asked Tim to build for me is almost turnkey. It will include the late model TB, Plenum, and intake. All are port matched and polished.

Larger Fuel Injectors to compensate for the increased flow capability, IE, to avoid it leaning out. The Larger Injectors allow the use of the stock ECU

What Tim is building me is an engine that will perform well in a heavy truck ~4700lbs, and last year after year.

Tim worked on the head today. Here are some pics he sent me showing the work on the exhaust ports and the chamber.

After the head is done, Tim will provide me the flow #'s

I'll track the build in this thread. I will make some 1/4 mile passes rather than do the Dyno thing. It's just way more fun, and I still get valid data to compare the before and after to.

Exhaust Port Before Porting:


Exhaust Port After Porting:


Chamber:
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Old 01-08-2007, 05:40 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I'm really curious about the numbers that will come out of this engine.

I can certianly understand needing more fuel with the kind of porting Tim does, but figuing out exactly how much will be a bit of a task. Upping the injector size the exact amount I could see being a real juggling act.

Have you thought about an aftermarket ECU? I know it wouldn't save any money, but it would take a lot of the guess work out of matching parts. And you could tune it to take full advantage of the changes.
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Old 01-08-2007, 05:46 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Steve,

What kind of numbers do you hope to get compared to a stock 22RE?

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Old 01-08-2007, 05:59 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Tim really does do beautiful port work...
What injectors are you going to run that will keep you sufficiently rich, but not impact the stock ECU? I'm curious why you chose that over adjusting the AFM a few clicks? The stock injectors are close to max, true enough.. I've just never experimented with running alternate injectors with the stock ECU.

Hit me up for a turn-key megasquirt demo one of these days when I get some spare time.. I'd be curious to what you can do on a dyno vs the stock ECU on a modified naturally aspriated engine.

Any other major mods on the motor other than port work?
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Old 01-08-2007, 06:08 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I all honesty, I am not concerned with numbers, As long as it runs well, and pulls my truck up the hills into the mountains, I will be happy.

I will post what #'s I can for you guys. I will even dyno it it if someone foots the bill!!!

My best estimate from my discussions with Tim are around 150 solid at the flywheel. With my Dual cases and driveline setup it will lose around 30%, so right around 105 give or take at the rear wheels.

Again, it's just estimates, I'm not asking Tim to build a race motor, I have asked him to build me a drivable and reliable motor.

Here is the formula I found for taking 1/4 mile data and getting a rough estimate of HP

Trap speed in mph, squared, divided by ET in seconds, times car weight in pounds, divided by 1000, divided by 9.1
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Old 01-08-2007, 06:10 PM   #6 (permalink)
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hey.... those aren't real before and after pic......one pic is of the front 2 exhaust ports, and the second is of the rear 2.
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Old 01-08-2007, 06:20 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Tim really does do beautiful port work...
What injectors are you going to run that will keep you sufficiently rich, but not impact the stock ECU? I'm curious why you chose that over adjusting the AFM a few clicks? The stock injectors are close to max, true enough.. I've just never experimented with running alternate injectors with the stock ECU.

Hit me up for a turn-key megasquirt demo one of these days when I get some spare time.. I'd be curious to what you can do on a dyno vs the stock ECU on a modified naturally aspriated engine.

Any other major mods on the motor other than port work?
Tim is supplying everything with the engine. I'll make a point of writing down what he told/tells me next time!!! Us old guys have to use paper memory or all we give back is a blank stare .......

It makes sense to me what Tim said, IE, the stock ECU in my year according to Tim is what he called a constant learning ECU.

I know it takes inputs for temp and O2, and works with those. My old brain says the O2 sensor is what the ECU uses to adjust the Injectors with.

So, If I increase the ability of an 4engine to breath, I need to also increase the ability of the ECU to feed fuel at high r's. As long as the ECU is satisfied by the O2 readings, it should be happy.

Make no mistake, I will not compare a 1985 basic Narrow band system to a sophisticated Wideband system such as a Megasquirt.

I would expect that a wideband system could certainly help pull every bit of potential from any engine provided the tuner knew what they were doing.

I have already moved my O2 past the header collector, and re-fitted it with a heated ND sensor. So at least in my setup, it reads all 4.
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Old 01-08-2007, 06:23 PM   #8 (permalink)
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hey.... those aren't real before and after pic......one pic is of the front 2 exhaust ports, and the second is of the rear 2.
LOL!!! Ya, I know, I flipped the after pic, and while i was doing it I said, "Bet Noodles will have a comment"

I will school Tim on taking better Pictures!
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Old 01-08-2007, 06:53 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I hate to be nosey.... but I gotta ask about the cost. I know he makes a very reputable engine and puts very good craftsmanship and knowledge into his work.

You don't have to say what the $ figures are, but for sure your gonna get every mile out of it.
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Old 01-08-2007, 07:04 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I hate to be nosey.... but I gotta ask about the cost. I know he makes a very reputable engine and puts very good craftsmanship and knowledge into his work.

You don't have to say what the $ figures are, but for sure your gonna get every mile out of it.
I am willing to bet it is a bro deal on the cheap, and steveh would have to wait for [email protected] to chime in for a price
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Old 01-08-2007, 07:27 PM   #11 (permalink)
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This will be a cool documented build up for people to follow and know what kind of hp there getting. I like the fact that you stuck with the toy motor too. One question though. Why not step up to a 2rz or 3rz? You would still have solid reliable motor with more power and torque for less I would think.
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Old 01-08-2007, 07:35 PM   #12 (permalink)
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This will be a cool documented build up for people to follow and know what kind of hp there getting. I like the fact that you stuck with the toy motor too. One question though. Why not step up to a 2rz or 3rz? You would still have solid reliable motor with more power and torque for less I would think.
Fair question, simple answer.
I like the 22r/re engines.
I don't have to deal with the Cali BAR Smog Referee.
Did I already say I like the 22r/re engines?
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Old 01-08-2007, 07:36 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I am willing to bet it is a bro deal on the cheap, and steveh would have to wait for [email protected] to chime in for a price

[email protected] and cheap do not belong in the same sentence.
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Old 01-08-2007, 07:43 PM   #14 (permalink)
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A man of classics thats respectible. My dad kept his flat head in his 51 ford for the same reason. On with the build!
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Old 01-08-2007, 08:35 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Steve, It's no mystery that I like megasquirt, but it's quirks aren't for everyone and I haven't found the time to really provide a plug in solution for all the variations in Toyota ECU... I'm totally curious about what the limitations of the stock ECU are.. Most modern ECS that use a closed loop operation (02 feedback) would accept some form of injector size change.. I just have no idea what the limitations of that change are! My understanding of EFI says at warm up you're not in closed loop, so the cc/min on the injectors have to be close.. just let us know!
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Old 01-09-2007, 04:43 AM   #16 (permalink)
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...I will post what #'s I can for you guys. I will even dyno it it if someone foots the bill!!!
Can you arrange an engine dyne test? Or will it be a chassis dyno test? I would love to see an engine dyno test. How many of us would be willing to put money into a "dyno pool" to pay for the results? I will put it!!

Quote:
My best estimate from my discussions with Tim are around 150 solid at the flywheel.
Will this engine be stroked and bored? If so, how much? What will be the CR? Will it run on 87 octane?

Quote:
.. I'm not asking Tim to build a race motor, I have asked him to build me a drivable and reliable motor.
This is very important to me - two words "driveable" and "reliable" !!

gNARLS.

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Old 01-09-2007, 04:51 AM   #17 (permalink)
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I hate to be nosey.... but I gotta ask about the cost. I know he makes a very reputable engine and puts very good craftsmanship and knowledge into his work.

You don't have to say what the $ figures are, but for sure your gonna get every mile out of it.
Well, don't think the cost should be a secret (it's really none of our business what Tim and Steve have arranged), but Tim certainly could quote YOU (or ME) a price for the exact same engine!! This a very important question!!
gNARLS.
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Old 01-09-2007, 04:53 AM   #18 (permalink)
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[email protected] and cheap do not belong in the same sentence.

True.... but you do get what you pay for. So far as your opinion on the 22r/e's, I like the series too. They are a well proven platform for reliability, simplicity and an overall good powerplant choice for what we drive. I understand the desire people have for wanting to swap a newer series motor in, I do. My opinion on that is why mess w/ something that has a good track record like the 22r/e? And is the power gain worth the significant increase in cost.... I bet it doesn't outweigh the cost of what Steveh is gonna get .
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Old 01-09-2007, 05:02 AM   #19 (permalink)
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This will be a cool documented build up for people to follow and know what kind of hp there getting. I like the fact that you stuck with the toy motor too. One question though. Why not step up to a 2rz or 3rz? You would still have solid reliable motor with more power and torque for less I would think.
I am not as familiar with the "z" motors. Can someone comment on the maintenance and tuning issues. I can rebuild a 22R carb, I could tune the heck out of 22R (I'm still learning about the 22RE), I can adjust the valve lash on a 22 down to a gnat's ass, I can even replace a head and camshaft, timing chain, etc., etc, etc. but what about the 3rz? Is it as easy to "work on" as the 22? I assume it's as reliable as a 22? Are there any "Tech bulletins" on the 3rz? How much "aftermarket" support is there for a 3zr? I know I should know these answers.
Thanks.
gNARLS.

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Old 01-09-2007, 05:13 AM   #20 (permalink)
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True.... but you do get what you pay for. So far as your opinion on the 22r/e's, I like the series too. They are a well proven platform for reliability, simplicity and an overall good powerplant choice for what we drive. I understand the desire people have for wanting to swap a newer series motor in, I do. My opinion on that is why mess w/ something that has a good track record like the 22r/e? And is the power gain worth the significant increase in cost.... I bet it doesn't outweigh the cost of what Steveh is gonna get .
STEVEH, if I'm getting off your topic, please let me know......

This is really what I'm looking to figure out. What is the cost vs performance gain for any given engine build, or swap?

DOA is telling Steve that he can build a 22RE with 150HP at the flywheel.

I am very confident I can have a turn-key 22RE built by a Toyota expert engine builder, AND installed and tuned, in my truck (1986 Xtracab, 5-speed) for $5,000, plus the cost of a header/exhaust (approx. $600). If I add the cost of extras, let's round it up to $6,000 (not including sales tax). This engine will produce about 135 HP at the flywheel on an engine dyno, GOBS of torque, will burn 87 octane, very driveable and reliable, and is bored and stroked to 2.6L, ported head, larger valves, and uses the stock ECU/FI. Any comments?
gNARLS.

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Old 01-09-2007, 06:45 AM   #21 (permalink)
 
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[QUOTE=Gnarly4X;6330499]DOA is telling Steve that he can build a 22RE with 150HP at the flywheel.

(DOA) 155HP @ sea level is the quote.


(G)I am very confident I can have a turn-key 22RE built by a Toyota expert engine builder, AND installed and tuned, in my truck (1986 Xtracab, 5-speed) for $5,000, plus the cost of a header/exhaust (approx. $600). If I add the cost of extras, let's round it up to $6,000 (not including sales tax). This engine will produce about 135 HP at the flywheel on an engine dyno, GOBS of torque, will burn 87 octane, very driveable and reliable, and is bored and stroked to 2.6L, ported head, larger valves, and uses the stock ECU/FI. Any comments?
gNARLS.

(DOA) I'll take that bet / challenge. We can look at HP. per cube vs. public pricing vs. what is actually seen at the crank. Stock ecu struggles at 2.6 with stock injectors (you did write stock ECU-FI). We'll also do the "Gobbs of TQ" comparo, dollars vs. LB FT. I'll make 155, you'll see a best of 160, a best. Both engines will need to also pass cali. smog tests, afterall, these are "real" street engines.......
Tell me how you want to do this, it's time to put up, or shut up. I think I'm gonna name steveh's motor "The stroker smoker".

NOODLES, the head was flopped for the first pic, upside down for lighting on the ported pic, real pics either way, but for you my friend, I'll shoot steveh the pic of the ports shown prior.
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Old 01-09-2007, 06:53 AM   #22 (permalink)
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when is the estimated complete date? mine should be motor should be in by this weekend. maybe we can meet up at a dyno shop and compare for shits and giggles.

link to my 2 year motor build
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Old 01-09-2007, 06:55 AM   #23 (permalink)
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I think I'm gonna name steveh's motor "The stroker smoker".
Nice!
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Old 01-09-2007, 09:01 AM   #24 (permalink)
 
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I am not as familiar with the "z" motors. Can someone comment on the maintenance and tuning issues. I can rebuild a 22R carb, I could tune the heck out of 22R (I'm still learning about the 22RE), I can adjust the valve lash on a 22 down to a gnat's ass, I can even replace a head and camshaft, timing chain, etc., etc, etc. but what about the 3rz? Is it as easy to "work on" as the 22? I assume it's as reliable as a 22? Are there any "Tech bulletins" on the 3rz? How much "aftermarket" support is there for a 3zr? I know I should know these answers.
Thanks.
gNARLS.
Gspot, I'm currently building a 3rz for Ben @ 4wd toyota owner. These things are big time different from the R series. Bottom end attention is pretty much the same sans timing assembly and twin counter shafts. The head is a mess, twins, scissor gears, multi valves, way techy stuff. I see it this way, the more parts, the greater the risk. The build for the mag's going to have some good pics and documentation. You're welcome to have a personal from me to you extra pic catalog after the story makes press.

Also, I went to toyota today, asked them why there were'nt any dyno sheets on the vehicles that were on the lot.....salesman looked at me qwizickly and said "what?" I again asked why there were no dyno sheets to back the manufactuer's claim of TQ. & HP.? Billion dollar company, no dyno sheets, what gives? He told me I could buy the truck, and do my own test if I like.....funny how that panned out ;-) I guess gallop would have claimed their customer service sucked at that point
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Old 01-09-2007, 09:02 AM   #25 (permalink)
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when is the estimated complete date? mine should be motor should be in by this weekend. maybe we can meet up at a dyno shop and compare for shits and giggles.

link to my 2 year motor build
Na, let's wheel up into the mountains on a day trip and have a Bruatbq!!!!!
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