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Old 12-23-2008, 09:36 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Question Winches - 8,000lb vs 8,000lb

Since the yota forum gets about a billion times more traffic than the newbie section...this may be ultra newb but here it is. (Had it posted in the newb section but got only two hits)

What makes one 8,000lb winch better than another ?
Anyone can throw a decal on a winch and call an 8k winch a 10k winch
True or false -series wound motors are better than permanent magnet.
Other factors that make one better than another may include actual horsepower from the motor, gear reduction, 12v vs 24v. Im sure direct drive vs planetary gears and thier respective ratios. What other factors are considered other than these things. Im not so conserned with line speed, just strength.

The reason I ask is the abundance of foreign/off branded winches coming to shore lately.

Oh and why does warn offer the tabor value series. What is different about these winches that makes them any cheaper to produce ? (in the other thread I had, someone suggested that there are some cosmetic blemishes or perhaps a less finished product)

F'n newbs
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Old 12-23-2008, 10:13 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Permanent magnets are only so strong, electromagnets (what you get with series wound) can be a lot stronger because they depend simply on how much current goes through them.

24v is stronger and generally more efficient than 12v, but most vehicles aren't wired for it. Higher voltage is like higher pressure (electrically), and since it uses half as much current for the doubled voltage, there is 4x less loss (heat) in the resistance of all connections and wires in the circuit (power loss = the square of the current x resistance).

AFAIK, Warn's Tabor's use bushings where their other winches use roller bearings, etc. There are some threads on them in the Gen4x4 section.

For the most part you get what you pay for...
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Old 12-23-2008, 10:38 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Other factors include the actual horsepower of the motor which translates to power the pull of the winch and the speed of the line pull; basically power=force*speed. Take a little tiny motor and gear it down 1,000,000:1 and it'll have lots of pull but be very slow. Take a bigger, more powerful motor and gear it down less and it'll have the same pull but more speed. One way to look at it is gears are relatively cheap, motors are expensive.

Some other factors of permanent magnet motors is if the magnets get hot enough, they will lose their magnetic field. Their advantage is they are more efficient that a series motor, since you don't have to use electric power to create the magnetic field like a series motor does.
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Old 12-23-2008, 10:53 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I could go on for hours about this subject, so I will keep this short.

First, there are 3 basic types of winches:

Planetary:


Spur Gear:


Worm Gear:



Planetary winches are a great option for the recreational 4x4 enthusiast. They are relatively affordable, and perform well under occasional use. Although the quality varies the greatest among this sector.

The other types of winches are Spur Gear, and Worm Gear winches. These are industrial winches. If your going to use your winch 5, 10, 50 times a day, buy a Spur or Worm Drive winch. Also notice that I showed pictures of almost every winch in this market. The Ramsey shown is almost identical to what you will find on almost every flat bed wrecking truck on the road today. The Superwinch Husky is an offroad recovery worm drive winch. Then, we all know the Warn 8274. Worm drive winches are also the only winches which are designed to power a load out.

As I mentioned, the big difference comes in the Planetary gear winches.
The largest issues with these winches come from poor build quality. Its very common to have 1 or 2 85 amp solenoids going to a 400 amp motor. Thus, the solenoids will melt. Also, the motors do not have a long duty cycle. Heat becomes a killer for these winches. Planetary drive winches use a brake to hold the load in place. Normally it does not work very well. When you power out, the brake engages, and is always pushing against the winch. Guess, what, this creates heat.

For those who like to run synthetic winch line, this heat will melt the winchline. Most winches (warn's, milemarker's, ramsey's, etc) have the brake under the winch drum. This means as you power out the winch will heat up, and melt the winch line. While most have sidestepped this issue by using fireline, it still is a problem. The only manufacturer who has an external brake, is superwinch, in their EP series winches:



Another issue with synthetic winchline is it is very slick, thus causing it to slide in-between the underlaying layers on the winch drum. With steel cable, it is very easy to spool the cable, so it is nice and tight, avoiding this issue. Even with with best spool job, synthetic winchline will slip in-between the lower layers. This causes a very hard side-load on the winch:



On the Warn winches, it will cause the casting of the winch to snap off at the cross bars. I wish I had a good photo of when one broke on my co-worker in Maine. It made a bad situation worse.



Next is going into rating. Some manufacturers rate the winches at their stall speed and some rate their winches at their working load. So, YES one manufacturer can call a winch a 8,000, and some could call it 10,000.

I don't know if you can tell, but I have had to use ALOT of winches, and prefer Superwinch. They just seem to be built better. I have also had a lot of problems with Warn Winches. But this could also be because I have used 10 warn winches to every other winch out there. I personally feel, if you want a REALLY good winch, you should suck it up and buy a worm, or spur drive winch. I love the superwinch husky, but its stupid expensive. The Warn 8274 is awesome, but so fast, it can get unsafe. I ended up picking up a Ramsey re12000 for my current truck, because they are priced right, and short of some bad solenoids (easy to swap in superwinch solenoids), are really good winches.


Let me know what else you would like to know.
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Old 12-23-2008, 11:04 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Nice write up GRM! I am no longer clueless in the wold of winches.
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Old 12-23-2008, 11:41 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Wow move GRM's post to the FAQ so no one will ever read it again. Very nice write up
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Old 12-23-2008, 11:56 PM   #7 (permalink)
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+3. excellent write-up.

Why do the threads that should go in the faq never make it?
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Old 12-24-2008, 12:28 AM   #8 (permalink)
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nice write up..
you ever see a fishing reel that has sat for a long time,the line will swell
to the point of splitting the spool in half.
what happens when synthetic line freezes on the winch? just a thought
a friend had the 8274 that thing was a beast,but also weighed a ton
with 150 of cable.
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Old 12-24-2008, 09:52 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Since GRMhick is the winchmeister. Perhaps you could give me some insight on a Shittybilt XRC8 vs a M8000 vs a Chicago electric 8000lb

Im actually trying to get a M12000 from a guy right now, but if that falls thru I would probably rethink it and look at the xrc8. I went to 4wheelparts and looked at one in person. It looks nice but ive never used a winch so I dont know my ass from a hole in the ground in that aspect. It could look nice and have gears made of wax for all I know.

I looked at an RE8000 last week from a guy on craigslist who thought it was a RE12000. That thing was a effin monster. No way it would even fit on my yota unless the bumper stuck out like a foot.
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Old 12-24-2008, 10:09 AM   #10 (permalink)
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nice write up
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Old 12-24-2008, 01:56 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackrider View Post
a friend had the 8274 that thing was a beast,but also weighed a ton
with 150 of cable.

my 8274 wieghts 110 on the cradle with synthetic line.
i dropped over 20lbs with just the syn line.
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Old 12-24-2008, 09:00 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Is anyone running hydraulic winches . We used ramsey 8000# on our flatbeds and they worked great sometimes you gotta pull out the ol snatchblock but not often . was just curious about using a hydro on a trail rig i suppose as long as the vehicle will run your good...
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Old 12-24-2008, 09:27 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Is anyone running hydraulic winches . We used ramsey 8000# on our flatbeds and they worked great sometimes you gotta pull out the ol snatchblock but not often . was just curious about using a hydro on a trail rig i suppose as long as the vehicle will run your good...
well assuming you don't roll your truck hydro winches are great, than again if you aren't going to roll your truck, than I guess you'd better not drive it at all ever, oh wait, maybe just get an electric winch...
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Old 12-24-2008, 10:56 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Very nice writeup on winches... thank you.
X(whatever number goes here) on adding to the FAQ
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Old 12-24-2008, 10:58 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I got the M12000 baby yea I think this should help out my little yota
Needs a little tlc, some fresh paint and a synthetic line




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Old 12-25-2008, 04:45 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3vze View Post
Since GRMhick is the winchmeister. Perhaps you could give me some insight on a Shittybilt XRC8 vs a M8000 vs a Chicago electric 8000lb

Im actually trying to get a M12000 from a guy right now, but if that falls thru I would probably rethink it and look at the xrc8. I went to 4wheelparts and looked at one in person. It looks nice but ive never used a winch so I dont know my ass from a hole in the ground in that aspect. It could look nice and have gears made of wax for all I know.

I looked at an RE8000 last week from a guy on craigslist who thought it was a RE12000. That thing was a effin monster. No way it would even fit on my yota unless the bumper stuck out like a foot.
Ha ha. I was hoping you wouldn't ask about the Smittybilt winch. Its one of the few I have NOT used. Although, when you look at the specs next to a warn, it makes any educated buyers wonder why they would want the warn:



See, the specifications on the Smittybult are better! More hp, with less gearing means a faster winch, which does not slow down as much under hard pulls. Warn put in a lower hp motor, and increased the gearing to get the same 8000lb rating out of it.

Also remember the size of the drum acts as a gear too. While not an issue with the 2 winches in question, it becomes something to look at when comparing other winches on the market. Just think: Torque=ForcexDistance So the farther the cable is from the center of the pivot (the drum) the less torque is applied through the winch cable. Thus, less pulling power.



So the smaller the drum of the winch, the more torque you get out of the winch cable. The larger the drum, the less torque out of the winch, but the faster the speed. This also works the other way around. The more wraps on the winch drum, the less power a winch can exert. This will easily drop the pulling power of your 8000lb winch to 4500lbs.



Moving onto the Chicago Electric winch. This is one I have used. After using other winches, this thing feels like it is straight out of 1945. When it gets a load on it, the winch moves SLOW. It also makes so much noise you think that it is un-oiled and the gears are about to seize up. One thing I really don't like about the winch is that the passenger side of the winch spins with the drum. I'm not a big fan of external parts to the winch moving. Its one more chance to get fingers caught up and pinched.

One winch I have been impressed by (for the price) is the milemarker SE9500C:



My buddy Max runs one on his Jeep. What I like the most about this winch is it has a thermal cutout switch. So when the winch gets hot, it shuts down. Keeps dummies like me from frying a substantial chunk of change. I wish more winches has this feature.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sperkinsnwfl
Is anyone running hydraulic winches . We used ramsey 8000# on our flatbeds and they worked great sometimes you gotta pull out the ol snatchblock but not often . was just curious about using a hydro on a trail rig i suppose as long as the vehicle will run your good...
Hydraulic winches are awesome. They will pull a house down. But they are not well suited for vehicle recovery. A vehicle needs to be running for the winch to work. There are quite a few situations where it is safer to have the vehicle off, or it is rolled over, and needs to be winched back up. This task is not possible with a hydraulic winch. For our purposes, the electric winch is the only way to go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3vze
I got the M12000 baby yea I think this should help out my little yota
Needs a little tlc, some fresh paint and a synthetic line
Winch looks good! Having 4 crossbars should help quite a bit supporting a synthetic winchline. Just remember, try your best never to power out, and keep as few wraps on the drum as possible to help prevent any side loading to the winch. Synthetic line needs about 10 wraps on a bare drum before you can winch off of it. I'd try my best to keep it there as much as possible. One easy way to help with this is to have 70' of winchline on the drum, and carry a 50' winch extension line with you.

One other point I should mention is ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS wear gloves when winching. Even with synthetic line. Steel cable will get burs in it, and poke your hand. Synthetic line picks up outside elements as it is dragged across the ground. A small stick doesn't seem too bad until it is gouged into your hand!

Also make sure to wear a glove that will fall off easily. If a winch cable were to catch your glove, you want the glove to easily come off of your hand so your hand is not sucked into the winch. This is especially important with the warn 8274 and its 74 ft/min line-speed.

I suggest using a rappelling glove. I use PMI's. And if I can find the PMI heavy-duty gloves, I buy those.



As you can see rappelling gloves have an extra layer across your palm to help keep your hands safe. Thick enough to help protect, but still thin enough to allow movement. Perfect for recreational winching.

Again, if there is anything anyone would like to know, post up!
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Old 12-25-2008, 06:36 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Another something I feel I should add for your reference:

The winch I currently own: The Ramsey RE12000 (just starting a new project truck)



The winch I want, and would LOVE to run on my truck: Bill Burke Signature Series Husky 10. The true cats ass of electric recovery winches.



And the winch I feel is the best bang for the buck in self recovery winches. It will also bolt to all winch mounting plates. So it works with a Marlin or All Pro Bumper. The Superwinch ep9.0 or epi9.0. Currently $605.95 and $599.95 respectively on summit racing.

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Old 12-25-2008, 07:52 AM   #18 (permalink)
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I have the XRC8 and love it. It is the only winch I have owned, but its just as fast as any other warn I have seen yet still has the power to drag my yota over anything I've tried so far. And you really cant beat the price - $270 shipped.
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Old 12-25-2008, 09:54 AM   #19 (permalink)
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I have had experience with smittybuilt OLD xrc8 and a warn winch with an ebay motor. the xrc8 works well but makes some interesting grinding noises now after 4 or 5 difficult pulls. I have heard many good things about the new design though. the Warn with ebay motor has proven to be pretty strong, although not much faster than the smittybuilt as far as line speed under load. But hey, if it works and I am the one getting pulled out who am I to complain!?
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Old 12-25-2008, 10:33 PM   #20 (permalink)
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So what about the T-Max? Any info/real world comparison on them?
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Old 12-25-2008, 10:34 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Thank you very much ! Thats awsome you make it sound like winching is a sport.
One last thing. You say "One easy way to help with this is to have 70' of winchline on the drum, and carry a 50' winch extension line with you"
How does that work ? I was thinking 100' of line to get about 92' usable like most specs list.
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Old 12-26-2008, 03:01 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Thank you very much ! Thats awsome you make it sound like winching is a sport.
One last thing. You say "One easy way to help with this is to have 70' of winchline on the drum, and carry a 50' winch extension line with you"
How does that work ? I was thinking 100' of line to get about 92' usable like most specs list.
The point is that when less rope is on the drum, the pull is stronger.

I do that partially for that reason, and partially so that when you are doing a side pull there is more room for the rope to get all packed up on the one side of the drum before it jams.

I did 80' of 5/16" line on the m8000 drum and a 50' extension (Rockstomper rope). Haven't even used the extension yet though.


Its interesting to read good things about the Superwinch winches. I'll have to keep them in mind next time I'm in the market.

For those of you putting on 12k winches- do you realize how slow those things are? Kinda sucks, IMHO. For the infrequent times you need that much pulling power, just use a snatch block.
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Old 12-26-2008, 04:24 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
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For those of you putting on 12k winches- do you realize how slow those things are? Kinda sucks, IMHO. For the infrequent times you need that much pulling power, just use a snatch block.
I totally understand how slow it is. At 8,000 lbs a worm drive 12k winch is 4 feet per minute vs 6 or 8 for a planetary winch. That m12000 is right around 5 feet per minute. An 8274 is 6 ft/minute.

I know they are slow, and 8-10 ft/minute at full load and 30 ft/min with no load is ideal. Most planetary winches are about the perfect speed. But I rather have the durability of a worm drive gear winch. That is, until Kyle at DITW takes a sledge hammer to my head for buying such a large winch that gets in the way of his tube art.

Also, both the superwinch and ramsey winches can have the gearsets replaced to make them an 8,000lb winch, and give them more speed. They still won't have the speed of a planetary, but it will give them 20/ft/min unloaded.

If you need a snatch block on an 8k winch for your 4k truck, chances are your going to bend or tweak something in the process of recovering your truck.
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Old 12-26-2008, 07:23 PM   #24 (permalink)
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If you need a snatch block on an 8k winch for your 4k truck, chances are your going to bend or tweak something in the process of recovering your truck.
Maybe. OTOH, you could pull 12k from a bigger winch on just your bumper, or use a smaller winch with a snatch block and attach the hook somewhere else like a frame mounted tow hook to spread the load.

I've never needed snatch block except for corners (not doubling), but it seems like I've heard of lots of people stalling winches when buried in snow or mud. Part of that may be that they weren't (or couldn't) pulling from the first layer and didn't have a full 8 or 9k pull (Probably those guys who stuff all the winch cable they can on their drum! ).
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Old 12-27-2008, 11:13 AM   #25 (permalink)
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So what about the T-Max? Any info/real world comparison on them?
I have a T-Max 12,500 and it works fine, just slow as heck. I only run 80' of rope. I figure if the Jeep I am recovering is further away then that we will figure something out. The reason I got the T-max was a web site had the 10,000 on sale for less then $500.00 and when I ordered it they were out of stock so they substituted the 12,500 at no extra cost.

I have a Warn 8274 sitting on my bench ready to go, I am just to lazy to build a new bumper. I picked it up for $250.00 and put another $150.00 rebuilding it. It also came with a bent Warn bumper that I cut the mount off and another mount plate.
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Last edited by OOP'S; 12-27-2008 at 11:13 AM.
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