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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Ok,

I've lurked here for long enough. I have a question for ya'll.

I'm running a 93 YJ standard trans computer, on a blueprinted, heavily cammed and "rev" prepped (rollerized) 4.OL. It's got a Garrett T4/T3 hybrid turbo running 6lbs boost, 32lb/hr injectors, 2 bar Split Second MAP, etc. etc.

Anyhow, I've recently been playing with methanol/water injection, and the results are extremely positive.

I'm running a 100 ml/min nozzle, at 150PSI. It has negated the need for an intercooler.

I just ordered a progressive digital meth injection controller from SNOW performance, to add more meth in the top end (3000-4000RPM).

I want to start advancing the timing, the meth allows this. It should let me keep my non-meth tune (for reliability reasons), yet be able to improve my burn characteristics safely.

My question is, how the heck can I build/buy/rig up a setup that will allow me to increase my base timing in 1 degree increments up to say 10 degrees advanced? Turbo City used to sell a 3 degree crank sensor, but I'm sure that it's not enough - and I'm looking for tuneability as well.

Any help would be very much appreciated.
 

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Umm that has nothing to do with what he is asking... He needs to advance the timing to get more power out of the meth injection. On the 4.0L you can't just rotate the distributor, that page is just how to position it correctly...

On my old MJ with the 4.6L I had to oval the holes in my CKP and modify the CPS to clock it, even then I didn't get it running to the point I was satisfied because I rolled the truck before I was able to keep tuning/adjusting it (that was RENIX injection though).

How are you liking the turbo? I have a KKK K24 and a TiAl 38 mm waste gate (.5 bar) and a BOV that I have lined up for my 4.0L, just concerned about how I will tune it without going all out megasquirt...

Are you OBDI or OBD II (I know 1993 is OBDI stock, but I have built a OBDII set up for mine as well as for another friend, several people have done it for data logging)?

-Dave
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
On my old MJ with the 4.6L I had to oval the holes in my CKP and modify the CPS to clock it, even then I didn't get it running to the point I was satisfied because I rolled the truck before I was able to keep tuning/adjusting it (that was RENIX injection though).

How are you liking the turbo? I have a KKK K24 and a TiAl 38 mm waste gate (.5 bar) and a BOV that I have lined up for my 4.0L, just concerned about how I will tune it without going all out megasquirt...

Are you OBDI or OBD II (I know 1993 is OBDI stock, but I have built a OBDII set up for mine as well as for another friend, several people have done it for data logging)?
Funny - I just read your new rig stats on your sig - I also have a 93 YJ with a 4.0L, AW4 and Dana 300. Hilarious.

I really, really like the turbo. The motor was no slouch before the turbo, now it's almost weird to drive - i.e it's very quiet and very very powerful (for a Jeep I6).

Could you supply me with some details on the KKK K24? AR numbers? I know that hybrid turbos work well with the 4.0L, generally a larger intake volute and a smaller exhaust volute promote a quick spool. Mine will hit 6lbs boost at 1000RPM if the engine load conditions are appropriate.

As for the ODBI vs. ODBII, I am still ODBI. It's strange, everytime I upgrade my power (increased boost, meth, cam changes) - it just kind of "takes it" and works. I am unsure if this is an ODBI thing or if I've been lucky so far. All I have to tune with is an adjustable fuel pressure regulator, dial-a-boost switch, meth pump pressure and nozzle size, and a split second 2 bar MAP. It's perfect, and works. Now I just need some advanced timing - to see the next stage of gains I'm seeking.

However, on my partners (Co-owner of Northern Extreme, my Jeep parts supply) ODBII 2003 TJ we have had some serious grief tuning. He runs the same turbo as myself - on a stock block with no meth. The 2 bar MAP is not enough to tune with. We have experienced a very strange phenomenon, the computer "quits" during the transition from vacuum to boost...We're not the only ones either, we've heard this same story from other turbo geeks running 2003+ MOPAR products.

If the fuel is sort of feathered, it will slowly "come back" and boost up slow. When it does the "quit" thing, on the MOPAR dealer scanner all the codes and readouts just sort of die. We have a few theories, namely the intake air temp sensor, and the 4 - O2 sensor thing...

We are currently trying the following : take two upstream 02 sensors and tie the outputs together. Place dummy sensors in the two downstream sensors. We are also thinking of adding meth/water right after the turbo, to allow the intake charge to cool before it hits the Tbody.

On another note - Painless wiring is supposed to be bringing a laptop tuneable, aftermarket 4.0L harness and computer to market. If they do, I'll have one of the 1st ones.
 

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Hahah hmmm twins? Been running the AW4 for almost a year DDed hauling 38.5s around, it does alright but I need more torque for the interstate cruising up hills and passing. I should have gone with 5.38's...but more power is going to be the substitute. AW4 on and offroad is one of my favorite mods though, hope you are liking yours too.

Hey, did you have any issues with reverse light wiring and the motor shutting off??? When I wired up the AW4 everything worked perfect unless I selected reverse, it would shut the motor off and reverse lights wouldn't come on... As soon as I cut that splice reverse wouldn't kill the motor. Double check I wired it right and fed 12 v to the reverse light side of the wiring and the reverse lights came on... I then took a test light to the tranny harness side of the wiring and it would come on only in reverse position. But as soon as you hook them up kills the motor and no lights, I gave up and haven't messed with it, ohhhh well (reverse lights are over rated...sometimes...).

I have one map of the turbo, can't remember the aspect ratios offhand but it's externally wastegated, water cooled center section with journal bearings. I got it off an Audi 5000, some of those had K26's though too, I think that just is a bigger compressor side with the same exhaust housing. You have exactly what I am looking for is spooling up to full boost by about 1000 RPM even if people claim it's going to choke me out in the top end (hahahah like they have a top end....5250 max RPM and sound like they want to all apart...). Not an issue with those RPMs though?

I guess from what you are saying maybe I will keep trying out my OBI harness (the OBII harness is 1996, so might not have the issues you have).

Love to see some pics of your set up if you could email them to me sometime. You just use stainless to build the manifold? I am probably just doing a log type manifold with the turbo under the intake, the pass side diff and driver side exhuast won't allow me to put the turbo on the pass side. I really want to fit an intercooler in too, along with meth, but we'll see...

-Dave
 

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Here's the one map I have located on the mess of my computer... Also have some K26 maps if you want?
 

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I definitely would like to see some pics of this! Its not every day you get to see a 4.0L turboed, but certaintly more rare are people that go to the next level to tune it like this.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
Hahah hmmm twins? Been running the AW4 for almost a year DDed hauling 38.5s around, it does alright but I need more torque for the interstate cruising up hills and passing. I should have gone with 5.38's...but more power is going to be the substitute. AW4 on and offroad is one of my favorite mods though, hope you are liking yours too.

Hey, did you have any issues with reverse light wiring and the motor shutting off??? When I wired up the AW4 everything worked perfect unless I selected reverse, it would shut the motor off and reverse lights wouldn't come on... As soon as I cut that splice reverse wouldn't kill the motor. Double check I wired it right and fed 12 v to the reverse light side of the wiring and the reverse lights came on... I then took a test light to the tranny harness side of the wiring and it would come on only in reverse position. But as soon as you hook them up kills the motor and no lights, I gave up and haven't messed with it, ohhhh well (reverse lights are over rated...sometimes...).

I have one map of the turbo, can't remember the aspect ratios offhand but it's externally wastegated, water cooled center section with journal bearings. I got it off an Audi 5000, some of those had K26's though too, I think that just is a bigger compressor side with the same exhaust housing. You have exactly what I am looking for is spooling up to full boost by about 1000 RPM even if people claim it's going to choke me out in the top end (hahahah like they have a top end....5250 max RPM and sound like they want to all apart...). Not an issue with those RPMs though?

I guess from what you are saying maybe I will keep trying out my OBI harness (the OBII harness is 1996, so might not have the issues you have).

Love to see some pics of your set up if you could email them to me sometime. You just use stainless to build the manifold? I am probably just doing a log type manifold with the turbo under the intake, the pass side diff and driver side exhuast won't allow me to put the turbo on the pass side. I really want to fit an intercooler in too, along with meth, but we'll see...
As far as the AW4 is concerned, it runs on a the stand-alone AW4 shift box. I really like it. I have my backup lights on a toggle, my Jeep is not really street legal anymore - although I do drive it on the road all the time.

MY 4.0L can safely rev, on paper, to 7000RPM. However, with the turbo I am using - it doesn't choke out in the top end at all, in fact it runs at about
30-40% of it's potential at any given time - and can maintain 6lbs all the way up to the rev limiter (which I have actually never touched with this unit - but gotten close).

My turbo started life as a kit. It now has a different turbo, fuel management, different exhaust routing, meth inject, oiling system, etc. I'll email pics, but won't post them here - out of respect for the guys that built the kit. I still use their manifold and BOV. My turbo rides on the pass. side - up high, exhaust crosses under the motor to the exhaust volute - adapted to my dual outlet headers. Down pipe sneaks out past the t-case output on the pass. side. It's tight, but it all fits.

As for the meth injection - if you run it you will not need an intercooler. It's much much cheaper, takes up almost no room, and actually can make more power in the end than the appropriate size intercooler - and it works when you are crawling or hauling.

Anybody reading this thread have any ideas about how I can advance my base timing incrementally as I asked earlier on? It guess it may come down to waiting for this painless kit.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
By the way, that map is telling me your turbo will want to spool higher in the RPM band - is your 4.0L stock?

One way to conquer that is with an "umbrella" style manifold, using near equal and "direct-shot" runners on your exhaust will force the turbo to spool faster.
 

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Yeah I haven't got the hang of reading maps welll yet, turbo was a freebie so I was going to give it a try. You would recommend your set up then over that eh?

I would like to do an umbrella type set up but shock hoops, motor mounts, and steering shaft I think will make it difficult...

Are you guys maufacturing the manifolds?

My 4.0L is a stock 96 block. I have a 12 counter wieght 258 crank that will be eventually going in... Probably going to turbo first though.
 

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As far as the AW4 is concerned, it runs on a the stand-alone AW4 shift box. I really like it. I have my backup lights on a toggle, my Jeep is not really street legal anymore - although I do drive it on the road all the time.

MY 4.0L can safely rev, on paper, to 7000RPM. However, with the turbo I am using - it doesn't choke out in the top end at all, in fact it runs at about
30-40% of it's potential at any given time - and can maintain 6lbs all the way up to the rev limiter (which I have actually never touched with this unit - but gotten close).

My turbo started life as a kit. It now has a different turbo, fuel management, different exhaust routing, meth inject, oiling system, etc. I'll email pics, but won't post them here - out of respect for the guys that built the kit. I still use their manifold and BOV. My turbo rides on the pass. side - up high, exhaust crosses under the motor to the exhaust volute - adapted to my dual outlet headers. Down pipe sneaks out past the t-case output on the pass. side. It's tight, but it all fits.

As for the meth injection - if you run it you will not need an intercooler. It's much much cheaper, takes up almost no room, and actually can make more power in the end than the appropriate size intercooler - and it works when you are crawling or hauling.

Anybody reading this thread have any ideas about how I can advance my base timing incrementally as I asked earlier on? It guess it may come down to waiting for this painless kit.

Yeah I figured you had the set up on the pass side, I just can't fit it, no possible way, Jeeps too low and flat skidded with negative body lift... Still would like some more specs, but I will stop hogging you timing thread and PM you.

Look into trying to oval the CKP holes and clocking the CPS.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
We will be manufacturing the manifolds, or rather, a local fab shop will be - most likely out of stainless (although mild steel has been working so far).

My block is a 98', with the NVH designation. I've retained the crank girdle as well.

I am still not sure about stroking - I won't build a budget stroker (the dwell angles are just too much), so I'm still looking for custom rods and pistons at a decent price.

The guys at Hesco sell the best kit (stroker) IMHO, (due to use of the longer rod) but they want gold for it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
Yeah I figured you had the set up on the pass side, I just can't fit it, no possible way, Jeeps too low and flat skidded with negative body lift... Still would like some more specs, but I will stop hogging you timing thread and PM you.
I know this is going to sound cheesy, but a hood scoop? Wouldn't have to be all that big, and would help cool the turbo as well.

Thanks for the input on the timing advance, PM me if you want some pics of my setup.
 

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Mmmm horsepower addiction. :D:D

Good luck on the quest Corey.

Someone you might want to give a try would be Howell Injection. They mostly work with chev TBI stuff, but they do flash their own chips. I don’t know if they can help, but maybe they can send you in the right direction.

I think the guy you want to talk to is Troy. Been a while since I had chips made up for the stroker I did, but Im sure he was the guy I gave my parameters to for a custom chip.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 · (Edited)
I'll try them, and see what they recommend - however if I can't tune via laptop - a reflashed computer is no good to me - I'd hate to be sending it back everytime I upgrade my system - which these days is every month or so.

Still trying to squeeze as much as I can, safely, out of the 4.0L.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
Well as it turns out I have answered my own question.

I talked to Mike at Painless today, and yes, in the new year a fully user programmable harness/ECM for the 4.0L will be available. They stated years from 91 - 97 would be covered (ODBI I believe).

It will be based off the PERFECT engine management system, and uses a 2 bar MAP sensor which is supplied with the kit.

Timing advance can be controlled via boost/vacuum levels, TPS settings, or RPM.

Fuel map is infinitely adjustable, via cells or 3-D graph.

I'm pretty f**king excited. He wouldn't take a deposit on one, but promised after the new year they would be ready for sale.

The Jeep mule is currently on the dyno, and the computer has been field tested.

The only thing it's lacking - is a few subroutines to program meth inject/nitrous ect. based on TPS, boost, vac, whatever. Unsure why they wouldn't add these, be easy as hell I'd think.
 

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Good to hear.

Yeah, I meant mebbe getting a lead from howell on doing your own programing. I dont know if they even do jeep chips or not.
 

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Corey, have you looked at MegaSquirt? It is more for the DIY'er and is a very steep learning curve, but will give you full control of fuel, timing, boost, meth etc... via MS Extra code.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Corey, have you looked at MegaSquirt? It is more for the DIY'er and is a very steep learning curve, but will give you full control of fuel, timing, boost, meth etc... via MS Extra code.
No I haven't....jesus from what I've heard it's sounds very "in depth".

Anybody tried this?
 

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No I haven't....jesus from what I've heard it's sounds very "in depth".

Anybody tried this?
Not tried it but I've looked into it for my own future turbo project, MS is something you probably should look into. You can buy pre-built computers on Ebay if soldering one up yourself isn't your bag. Basically it's an open standard fuel management system, that is constantly evolving. You can buy components of it from people who've done the work, or build it yourself from schematics.

Also what about Accel DFI or Holley's MPI commander 950?

Curious how did you rollerize your 4.0? That should be an interesting story in itself. What lifters did you use and how much did the custom made roller cam cost?
 
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