Pirate 4x4 banner

1 - 17 of 17 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,100 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
When we bought our house, it had a 34'w by 28' deep stick-built structure on a slab.

We wired, insulated (R-21 Corbond spary), heated (100k BTU Reznor), sheetrocked, painted, etc.

I'm happy to say that it took 13+ years to really start to frustrate me. :D

I drew this up back then, and mostly it matches..


Though I redrew it recently and turned it (d'oh) and it looks more like this.



On the second diagram, there's a man door on the bottom (north side) about middle of the wall, and on the south wall (top of picture) a window.

Shop is 34x28x10, gable ends are the N/S (man door/window)

I'm researching putting a 40x40 (x16) off the south end. I can go 10' to the west (right) behind the current shop wall before I get to the sewer line to the drain field.

(Separate project - bring the roof down over that 10' and put a 34x10' lean-to for storage behind the shop)

So 40x40 is only 2-4' forward of the current shop when I'm done, and 10' behind it (until the lean-to gets added)

I intend to knock out the window and put a door in, put a door in the new shop in the same spot.

Then I can walk out of my house, walk across a short patio into the current shop, walk through, and out/in the other end.

I might be able to go a little more than 40' in width, but I am eventually limited by the drain field, and my desire to drive around it - so I can't get too close to the drainfield.

Yes, I have a lot of junk - but also, I had a BBQ the day I took this last year, so the vehicles are not all mine.



You can sorta make out the drain field to the "left"/south by the greenish grass.


I had a buddy that built a 60x40 - he used a 14x14 door and ran straight to the back and put his lift, then an office/loft in the 25x20 (20x15?) space next to it.

The other bays were "drive in, angle park to the left"

I won't be working with quite the same depth, but I wanted to explore the idea.

Roughly.. (dashed lines show 34x28 overlay to compare the elbow room)



This one has my favor for the moment.

One spot for a lift. Two angled slots for other stuff, and a "just inside the door" area if need-be. One of the angled slots might be parallel to the lift bay instead..

Welding/grinding in the "dead" space just behind the wall where the door is.

Steel along the wall that almost touches the old shop - I want a 20' unencumbered wall, and ideally easy to drag it straight in through the door. The bandsaw next to it just makes sense at that point.

50A outlets at least in two spots, and probably a third. Right next to the door is a no-brainer, too. :D

The other layout another buddy was trying to sell me on - all angled parking (if I put the bumpers against the wall, you could actually get 2 more rigs down the middle most days as well)



This is a workshop, not a storage building (I hope!) and I really shouldn't be working on too many projects at once if I ever hope to finish any of them..

So jamming as many rigs inside as possible isn't a concern, but some space around them is.

(Most of my vehicles are ~15' long, with a couple at 20-21' - obviously, more room with the smaller rigs)

If I could go 44' wide, aside from the bigger is always better idea, woud it be a huge improvement, or just so so?



I have two quotes in hand, and I'm off to the Home Show to talk some more out.

I'm leaning towards a pole building, with steel ceiling. Unsure on the walls - I'm thinking the Corbond spray-foam again which then requires 5/8 'rock for fire code. R-21. Or they can do D-19 batts, but it won't firm up the building like the foam would.

I'm planning radiant heat in the slab. I keep seeing I should need ~3200' of 1/2" oxygen barrier Pex for the 1600' floor. 5" slab sounds good, some reinforcement. Some slightly deeper/no pex "piers" where the lift would go (so important to plan that out).

I think I need to insulate the slab from the wall, AND under the slab. 2" or 4" foam board under? What's the risk of the floor cracking more thanks to the foam?


I'm either going to run power through the attic of the old shop, along with gas, and bring it across that way (intention is to enclose the space between the two buildings - maybe I"ll get a small storage slot in there).

I have 100a service to the current garage. I would like to run a 100A breaker and feed the new building's sub-panel that way - I know if I go through the attic, I have to upgrade the wire a bit to deal with the temperature de-rate.

The gas line is a different problem, since it was sized for the 100k heater in the current garage - and I'd likely need to disable that (or replace with something much smaller) to "borrow' enough gas to feed the new building.

So either the attic route, or perhaps I trench behind the shop and run a water line - and while I'm at it, add another gas run. Problem is the myriad of things now running through that section of the yard, starting with the sprinkler system, the 4" conduit for the coax, then the power/gas to the shop, the power/gas/cable feed to the house, the septic line, the well supply..

Thus, the attic. :D

So.. suggestions on the floor layout?

Other things I need to remember to check the box on, or plan on, or negotiate about? :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
789 Posts
I see no air compressor. If it were me I would build a small closet in a corner to store one with a dust collector to cut down on noise.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,100 Posts
Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
Thanks. I forgot to mention - I think I will leave the compressor in the garage and bring the air across to the new building, too. :)

I also forgot to clue folks in on prices.

I have two quotes thus far in hand and they range from $21,500 to $23,000 for the shell.

$2k for the ceiling in steel, $8800 for the floor (without radiant)


Found a third candidate yesterday - and the new plan may be to use SIPs - we'll see.

I fear this whole thing will be closer to $50k by the time I'm done. :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
887 Posts
i'd hate to heat a 40x40 in helena mt
build your 40x40 pole barn with a gravel floor and move all non-essentials over there
your 34x28, with slab, wired, insulated, heated, sheetrocked, painted, etc. is good for projects

post up a couple recent pics of the inside of your current shop, it's probably full of crap (by your own admission) :D
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
7,180 Posts
I am happy for you, but also jealous :flipoff2: . I would be terrified about trying to heat that up in your climate. I would try to divide it up into a smaller heated space to work on one vehicle with all tools and a tall ceiling, maybe vaulted for the lift area and separate the rest as unheated. Radiant in the floor for sure.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
30 Posts
Heat the whole thing. Keep checking craigslist for recycled poly-iso 4x8 insulation sheets demo'd from commercial buildings and schools. 3"= roughly r21. Foam seal the joints. Should be able to do that for under 2k and your time. Add in some fiberglass insulation with vinyl backing in the ceiling if more r value is needed.

Attic trusses make for some nice storage for some of the sanford and son junk and shouldn't cost an extreme amount more on a pole building. I put in full load 32' wide trusses with a 16' wide room and it's loaded with most of the crap.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,100 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
We've been saving for a few years for this project, but darn if I hate to part with it.. :D

I heat the 34x28 all winter. I don't know what it costs me. I heat it to 40-ish degrees most of the time (as low as the thermostat will go), and the used 100k BTU gas Reznor is not the most efficient - but it also only takes a few minutes to take the chill off and 55-65 is what I like to work in (warm enough you only need a single layer of flannel, which provides some protection).

It is also enough heat I can keep it 70-deg inside with the big 16x8 door open..

I've gone back and forth on "build a new storage/parking building" and work out of the current (finished) shop, and in many ways 40x40 is a compromise on the "build a small shop to heat and work in"

If I build something new, I'd want to put a lift in. If I put a lift in, I need a non-lift bay too, so I'm not working around the darn lift all of the time.

IMO that might mean 30x30 as a reasonable size for two bays (the shop I helped build at my mom's is that size - problem there is she doesn't work out of it, and can only get 2 cars in it now - with a bunch of other stuff to go with.


I also want to add a 34x10 lean-to off the back of the current shop.

I could make the shop more livable if I moved some storage stuff out there (my 8x16 shed is already full of Scout parts). Get the walls to stop creeping inward some.

I could then go cheap - 40x40 with a gravel floor, sure. No insulation, though maybe I have the steel ceiling hung to get that out of the way.

I would probably put two doors in at that point. Insulated, just in case. :D

I could then park 3 rigs in the back (4 even) and at least two up front - and increase the wife-approval factor next winter.

That would be $20-$25k.

That wouldn't stop me from finishing it out in the future if need be. Drag everything out, insulate, Pex, and pour the floor.

Then later have the walls sprayed with insulation.

But only if I felt it necessary. It could stay a dirt-floor car barn, too.

I struggle with how little time I do wind up spending in the shop, and none of us are getting any younger and why should I tie up so much $$$ into a nice shop for a few hours a week.

I do have a high desire for a place to park some of the vehicles, and some places to stow some of the "treasures" I've been hoarding too many of.

Go on, help me not spend my money. :D

Came to the realization yesterday that if instead of spending the money we saved, I financed the shop, we'd owe (again) as much on this place as we did the day we bought it. Granted, it'd be worth more, but I greatly dislike owing money..

So, it might not take much to convince me that 34x28 is a huge shop and I should be happy with what I have. :D Hello, car barn.. that would be the responsible choice.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,184 Posts
Tom,
I really like Mike Kelly's new setup where he has doors positioned so he can drive right through his shop and out the back. It's very nice for plucking a dead rig off of a trailer with the hoist.

I always thought having a clean side and a dirty side (wall in between) would also be nice. I am getting tired of cleaning grinding dust out of everything.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
8,744 Posts
Tom,
I really like Mike Kelly's new setup where he has doors positioned so he can drive right through his shop and out the back. It's very nice for plucking a dead rig off of a trailer with the hoist.

I always thought having a clean side and a dirty side (wall in between) would also be nice. I am getting tired of cleaning grinding dust out of everything.
For the most part my dirty side of the shop is the outside. Whatever kind of shop you have you should always have a bench outside with a vise, an electrical outlet, and an air outlet handy. You'd be amazed at all the nasty shit you can do outside and save yourself a ton of cleaning... Even better if you have it under a lean-to or similar and with lights and concrete...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
98 Posts
I'll vouch for having a dirty area that's at least adjoining the outside. I'm always amazed when shops have the whole fab set up in the far back opposite the bay door. Just pushing/blowing all the slag grinder dust chips etc out into gravel is way quicker and easier than the dustpan on your knees. Maybe I am messier than others but knocking all the rust off raw steel and stuff like that inside is horrible. I keep my raw materials outside under a roof (over the firewood) and at least rough out my parts in a covered outside area. Takes up a lot less clean space and I usually have much smaller parts in the shop. I normally buy whole sticks and sheets so maneuvering them through the shop next to the rigs would suck so I'd move that
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,100 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
So I put this on hold after too many suggestions to do so, and overall indecision.. :)

I built a 34'x10' lean-to off the back of the current shop instead, thinking I could move some stuff around and make the current shop seem bigger.

I did move some stuff, but mostly it's now full of clothes that are too small for the 13' year old but too big for the 11 year old, the Christmas stuff, heirlooms and keepsakes, and so forth.

I do have an engine or two stashed in there, but mostly household stuff.

Last year I focused on adding solar to the current garage - 6kw worth.

Well, I've still been saving for a new shop, and thanks to the COVID economy, interest rates took another nose dive, so... I'm not sure how I close in this climate, but the process is underway.

There's still a 26% federal tax credit for solar, but I'm running out of room for more.
I also have a 13 year old that will be driving before I know it - and with her inability to wake up timely, she'll be driving with a port-hole in the windshield, and that's probably not a smart idea.

So, maybe my wife (and daughter) will finally get to park in the garage again if I build a proper shop.

Using the 34x28 and building a car barn would work, but it is probably better to have the parking garage closer to the house, and the opportunity to have a bit more room to work (er, pile sh*t) seems like a good idea, too.

So I've been back at it with estimates and so forth.

The plan has changed slightly - I'm now looking at a 44' by 40', and I've just about made up my mind to just go 14' walls instead of 16, with a 14x12' door - saves ~$2k, and it turns out if I wanted to plan for a big motorhome, they're all over 16' with the AC units anyways.

The only other real reason for 16' - I could do a 24' wide 2-car lean-to off the back with 16' walls and a 4/12 pitch (24' wide leanto would still have a 10' wall).

If/when the lean-to happens, it'll be a single wide bay (but 2 deep) - 12' wide bay would still have an 8' ceiling, and a chance to carry it out a bit more for storage area.

14' and 4/12 also reduces the shading of the new shop against the solar on the old shop.

I also concluded that even with a lift, 14' is enough to put a 9' tall vehicle far enough in the air that I can almost walk under the tires, and anything shorter will be just fine (and my stuff is all under 8' right now)

44' wide, by 40' deep. The 40' deep, with a 24" overhang, will yield just over 23' of roof per side, which allows for 6 solar panels in portrait (~40" wide) for 20' of roof, with the 3' of fireman clearance at the peak.

The 44' width was chosen over 40', because with 72-cell solar panels, that lets me get 5 panels across while keeping 3' walkways on either end.

Pole barn construction with the trusses 4' apart factors into how that all fits together, too.

But that'll net me 30 solar panels facing east, 30 west. 60 400w panels for 24,000w or roughly 24,000kwh here in Montana, or $2,400 worth of electricity annually.

I'm planning the radiant in the floor.

I am leaning towards an electric boiler right now, but did just run the math on heat loss and heating costs..

I think we're in a 10,000 heating-degree-days zone here.

Calcs suggest heat loss between 38,000 BTU and 67k.
102M BTU per year

Runnng straight electric heat, about $3k/ 29,000kwh per year - or about 5,000kwh more than the solar should produce.

Gas would be a lot cheaper - I'm leaning towards running the gas line, but don't have to really decide on a boiler for a while.

I've been looking at air-to-water heatpumps. That would move the heating costs to ~10,000kwh/yr but it is difficult to find an ATW heatpump - and most of the ones designed for cold temps come from Canada, and we have a 25% tariff on Canadian heat pumps on top of the freight bill..

On the plus side, the $3k figure is if i kept the shop at 70 - I can cut the heating costs by dropping the temperature - perhaps even having the floor hold at 40 or so, with a forced air heater to supplement.

If anyone has a suggestion on an ATW heat pump, I'm all ears.. Maybe a used one that's too small, but I could in tandem with an electric boiler for make-up heat. - or go ahead and put in a gas boiler to go with..

Meanwhile, ~$3k to the power company and more to an electrician to upgrade the service from 200A to 320/400A.

The building estimates are coming in between $30-$40k, with another ~$10k in concrete, then insulation.

$3300 if I install the insulation under the slab. $2300+ for an electric boiler and pump.. $700 in pex..

About $11k for insulation - R-35 for the walls, R-50 ceiling.
Steel sheeting the ceiling seems to be between $3k and $4700.

They advertise 60x40s for $23k in the paper, but by the time you add up everything not mentioned, it's more than 3x that figure.

BTW, I started this effort thinking I'd ask about the attrc trusses that give you all that dirt-cheap extra space... I quit when I realized I could build a second building for less.



The 24kw of solar is about $20k in materials. I'm hoping I can hire the roofers to install them. Carrying my 12 60-cell panels up to my 10' roof and installing them by myself was do-able but the larger 72-cell panels are bigger and heavier, and they'll have a lift..


I've asked the trusses be designed for a 50psf snow load instead of our typical 40 to account for the ~3psf extra solar panel load plus wind.

I still plan a single door - now 14'x12' high. Floor plan will still be similar to this earlier one


Still 40' from the door to the wall, but 44' top to bottom.

That should make it a little easier to get 2 diagonal, and 2 straight in at the back wall, with room near the door for at least one more.

The big door won't be right against the north wall - I'm still pondering how deep the side wall (north side, bottom of the diagram) should be.

With the man-door lined up with the window of the old shop, I should have 12' of wall between the big door and man door, and then 20-25' from the man door to the west (right) wall.

That should let CdA Metals pole steel off in the driveway, and I just have to drag it straight inside, and rack it.

The bandsaw goes on the other side of the man door, so you can just unrack the steel, drag it back towards the big door, and feed the saw.


Might still not be the smartest project I've undertaken, but I'll have a bit more room to move around, and we'll finally park a few - RUNNING - vehicles inside for the winter.

Assuming we're not all still sheltering-in-place this time next year.. :p
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,282 Posts
A few years back I caught an article, a guy in Montana built a solar heating system for his house, put a septic tank halfway in the ground, built a shed around it, one wall was a collector, black tubing under glass or something, then a hot line and a return running to the house with a radiant heat system, a pump with a hi and low temp switch.

It noted that Montana has 2k hours of sunlight a year, and that there are enough sunny tho cold days, that the liquid capacity could ride out a couple cloudy days in a row.

Just a thought. I know the pv panels get you a tax credit, not sure about a solar heat system.

It's something I'd be considering in your climate
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,100 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
I have read that article about the solar hydronic heat in Bozeman, MT several times. It is amazing to me that it works, and I have wanted to do it ever since.. but haven't. In the end, with the 26% tax credit and dropping prices, I can put solar on the roof and waste it as resistance heat and have a simpler and easier to maintain system that is relatively standard.

Doesn't stop me from thinking about it though.

I think I'm running a gas line along with power, and I can shift heat sources depending on how things work out.

Still waiting to hear from the County on whether I can add a wash basin without redoing the entire septic system.

But the trenching should start this week..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
The plan has changed slightly - I'm now looking at a 44' by 40', and I've just about made up my mind to just go 14' walls instead of 16, with a 14x12' door - saves ~$2k, and it turns out if I wanted to plan for a big motorhome, they're all over 16' with the AC units anyways.
The 16' tall on motorhomes is incorrect. Federal height restrictions are 14', most semi trailers are 13' 6" because of this but they can run up to 14' with no permits in most states. Still have to be cautious of overhead heights on the east coast but out West you are better off, not perfect but better. So if you have a level entrance into the shop and are not going up or down a hill a motorhome will fit in a 14' door. More than likely it will be tight since with AC units its over 13' but has to legally be under 14'. Hope that helps, I know for my dad his shop is uphill of the driveway so her put in 16' doors for semi trucks and a future motorhome, but if you are level 14' door will clear.

-MT-
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,100 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
Thanks, MT0711. I did change my mind and went back to 16' walls and a 14x14 door.

Among other things, with a 16' wall if I wanted to add a lean-to off a side (the side without a door, of course) with the 5:12 pitch, I can come out 12' and still be at 9' of height. That makes a single-car wide 8' door (two cars deep) a possibility. With a 14' wall, I would have to change the pitch to be able to get a 7' door in.

But that will come later - the other slight change.

I wanted to have the new shop against the old shop - I figured it would be spaced a few feet apart, then we'd build a wide (but short) "hallway" to connect them.

Builder wants 8' of clearance around the building, so it has to be spaced at least 8' away. At that point, I'm getting close enough to my septic drain field that being able to drive entirely around the drainfield isn't likely, so what do I need the extra space between the shop and drainfield for?

So.. we're now 14' apart, which still leaves ~5' or so to the drain field.

For now, the two buildings won't be joined, but next year I can enclose the gap, and wind up with a 14x28 single car in between. I might be stuck with a 7' tall door.


Related, I found out I "had" to go mono-slab with the posts attached to the slab. The radiant heat combined with the single 14x14 door would have meant a pumper truck, so I'm going mono-slab instead, which will be poured first.

Sneaky extra cost - they add $75 per post for the brackets to attach to a mono-slab, but don't seem to give a discount for not drilling and concreting the holes, nor for the 4' shorter posts.

We'll also pour the slab between the old and new shop at the same time - it will just be a bare slab this winter.

I have 3000' of oxygen barrier PEX on the way. I will run two loops in the in-between pad, and up to 7 in the main shop. Two PEX manifolds.

While I didn't plan to heat the hallway (and may not actually heat it), two walls will already be there and already be insulated.. so might as well put the PEX down while I can.

Thought on the mono-slab is to put 2" of XPS around the perimeter, and 2" of the pre-nubbed pex-board insulation on the entire center with the PEX in it. I had thought to put the PEX closer to the top of the slab, but the R-10 Pex-ready foam was cheaper than the "plain" 2" XPS. I'm not sure why, but it was..

In the end, I won't be far off a 60x40, being more like 58x40 just broken up into a 44x40 and a 14x28. I'm able to break the cost up a bit over two seasons, and I can heat one and not the other, and I can have a clean bay for storage - or paint - separate from the work shop.

I'm still hoping 44x40 is a good size for a one-man show. I did lay out tires on the ground to mark the corners and the big door, then drove some vehicles in and out to practice. :D

I just have to do a lot of wrenching to justify all of this. :p
 
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
Top