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Meiser brings up a good point. Make sure you can left foot brake. I stumbled on that very early when my Steering Wheel shaft went real low in the floor board. I had to put the throttle on the right and the brake on the left. (Automatic since'66) I found that you could augment the suspension and shock valving by dragging the brakes and other things while still on the gas. The common term is "Trail Braking." All pro drivers use the technique.

Recently, 2013, I bought an LJ with a 6 speed-clutch. The clutch, brake, and throttle pedals are in the wrong spots to trail brake or heal toe. if it wasn't for a parking brake, I would be lost starting on a hill. The LJ is the first vehicle I have owned with this problem... What gives???? Maybe shoes are wider??

I like to change speed with the brake instead of the gas pedal. It happens faster and more reliable because the engine is usually in a happy place away from throttle response, dash pots, accelerator pumps, etc. Running a trail at 1000 to 1500 rpm instead of 700 can really even out the ride, and the torque is there to carry over the obstacles. It takes practice with a standard shift. Left foot braking with an automatic is the way to go...except when taking a DMV driving test. They don't get it......LOL

Anyhow, you are making your rig fit you...so keep those moves in mind.

If I know that I will be in the Jeep most of the time and not out hiking around, I will wear a narrow driving shoe with a rounded heal to stick to the floor and individually fit on the pedals. I guess I should get under the dash and do a little bending.... Race stuff below, but the idea if not familiar.

 
Discussion starter · #802 · (Edited)
Pedal Assembly Mock-Up

Thanks for additional comments and question ISDTBower and Meiser! I really appreciate your comments on pedal positioning ISDTBower- and dug the video. Your comments and the video are really great food for thought on pedal placement - and motivation to up my game in driving skills! Meiser, your past comments have also been real helpful. Any additional inputs are welcome and appreciated!

I did happen to mock up the pedal assembly on the firewall today so I could see how it fit, and start designing and making the gas pedal. Took some pics, so here you go Meiser! I have a kluge mock up seating arrangement that's not quite right yet, and need to work on it more. It's a bit of a chicken and egg situation- need a seat to assess pedals, but need pedals to assess seating position. I think this is close enough to start making the gas pedal. Will iterate to refine before finalizing and cutting holes in the firewall to mount everything.

Here's some views from the drivers seat direction. There's a fair amount of distortion in the views from being close up- so I took a few pics at different positions to compensate for the perspective quirks with different camera angles. Also included a tape measure so you can see the distance from tunnel wall and between pedals. The last photo is probably the best view of the gas pedal area specifically.







Here's a couple of side views too. The first is with the pedals up in the position they should end up with the MC's in place, push rods not depressed. The second pic has the clutch down. It's actually farther down than the clutch MC stroke will allow, and the stop will keep it from going this far once adjusted. However, it illustrates the firewall clearance that the brake pedal will have at the end of it's stroke- there's still about an inch clearance with pedal down.





Some other points of reference on all of these:
The floor "angle" section is about the same angle as stock but shorter in length and rise. The transition bend from the angle floor to the vertical firewall is 6.5" above the floor/frame rail, whereas the stock height is about 9.5". The transition is 3" lower than stock- so there's more clearance for the pedal stroke vs stock.

The mark on the firewall between the tunnel and brake pedal in the driver views is where I think the steering column will end up. In the stock arrangement the column goes through the taller angle floor section, here it goes through the vertical firewall section. Independent of the floor intersection reference points, the column position shown is higher than stock, and the column will "lay back" more horizontal than stock. It can move a little, but the path through the engine compartment is pretty constrained and this position looks like a good balance of clearances to headers, rear spark plug, and motor mount.

The lateral placement of the pedal assembly on the firewall is set to balance clearance from the hydroboost back up pressure cylinder to the engine PCV valve, while also keeping the clutch MC inboard enough that I think I can sneak a cage tube from the upper firewall corner to a front radiator hoop. If I need to tweak the pedal position, I'd likely leave the pedal box where it is and change the pedal pad position on the arms and /or arm bends to shift the pedals.

My widest boots are about 4.75" wide. I think the space between the tunnel and brake pedal will be enough for boot clearance at the gas pedal....

Let me know if any of you have any additional suggestions! Thanks!
 
Good pics. I know there is no perfect answer, but here are my thoughts.

I really miss having a 'dead' pedal space in my flatty. It may be almost impossible to get in the cramped foot box, but I find myself having to drive with my left foot almost under the clutch pedal to get comfortable. That means my foot has to do this odd back, down, and up move to activate the clutch to get around the pedal. If you have the seat back further, seat higher up, or a hundred other things it will change. It is just something to think about. I think moving the pedals closer together is viable. This could be done with just the offset of the pads on the arms too. It is nice to be able to work the pedals with big clunky snow boots too.

I do wish I had more room for my accelerator foot, and it seems like you have that in spades. I would try and start pedal hunting to get some ideas going. Mine ended up having to be really small to work around the floor/tunnel stuff. I also have a hand throttle and use it A LOT honestly. At this point I don't know what I would do with out it. I call it a 'boat throttle' setup. I used a friction bike shifter that had a longer lever. I find that I use it set with enough friction the throttle just stays where I put it. Loosen the friction adjustment and it will return to idle as soon as you let go of the lever. I couldn't do the marathon style road trips that I do in the flatty without the boat throttle option.

Steering column. I think you are in the ballpark. At this point, it looks fairly easy to just change the pedal offsets if needed in the future to play with the ergonomics. The high hood ergo will be a little bit different, but looking back I wish I would have raised the firewall side of column to flatten out the slope of the steering column. I will probably do that on the one I am building now. This would make the steering wheel feel less like a bus and more like a car. ( on top of vs in front of the steering wheel ). The trick is leaving enough space you can still get in and out comfortably.

Keep up the great work and clean fab.
 
Double down on the bike shifter. I have the 4 liter in the LJ. I lengthened the throttle body, throttle linkage to get less crawling throttle response. This also made the hand throttle less twitchy.

One thing I don't like about Calif 4.0 throttle programming is that when you are crawling at idle, and hit an obstacle, the throttle will open up AUTOMATICALLY. It permanently scared my wife out of the LJ. (I agreed) I tried almost everything to fix that. Using the hand throttle to get above that threshold and a 4 sp Atlas made the rig "just" drivable in those sketchy situations. I am really used to an automatic with total 1" left foot control.......

There are so many cool builds going on right now with newer ideas and ways to fab, that I want to untarp a wagon in the backyard and get with it.....But I have to focus on current first.
 
Discussion starter · #805 · (Edited)
Hi Meiser- Thanks so much for your additional feedback and your nice comments too! I really appreciate that you take the time to study what I've got so far and give me feedback from your experiences. I reference my stock 53 set up as a place to start on the ergonomics, but it's quite different given that I moved the drivetrain way up for this build like you did on your Rango and Jumping Ship builds. Its great to have the benefit of hearing what your experiences have been driving those rigs, and take that into account in setting up mine.

Really good point on the dead pedal space. I was also originally going to keep the headlight bright switch on the floor like my stock 53- then figured I could address that some other way and leave it out. On the other hand with some dead pedal space at the left, I might be able to fit it right at the top. As you say, I can move the pads around on the arms. I can also just flatten the bends on the arms a bit to put the pedals further inboard. On the other hand the roll cage bar may be in the way even if I make some space. (The temporary A pillar I have in place now is right where I want the final one to be) Will have to ponder that- good point to consider. Thanks!

On the gas pedal, I'm making my own so I can put it where I want within the space. I worked on the pedal pivot and mount today. The mount attaches at the curve of the firewall set-back, putting the pedal arm attachment point about 2" outboard from the vertical wall of the tunnel so the pedal has a pretty clean path. I can angle it out further from the tunnel if needed by putting a bend in it. I'll post a pic when it's more together.

Thanks for the thoughts on the bike shifter throttle lever. I always liked the Willys dash throttle - but hard to reach. Your comments and the follow up from ISDTBower, have me sold. Will have to do that!

Good to hear your thoughts on the steering column angle and it's position on the firewall. That's the direction I'm going at this point -it's passing through the firewall higher than stock, and leaning back a bit more more car-like than stock. It also results in a less severe u-joint angle than the stock position which is nice.

One other thing I'm finding besides pedal considerations, is that moving the seat back for leg room puts the gear shifters farther away...May have to bend the levers back a bit more... lots to balance out!

You mentioned "I will probably do that on the one I am building now"...Do you have a new build you're working on?

Thanks for your feedback!
 
Discussion starter · #806 · (Edited)
Thanks for your comments ISDTBower! You and Meiser have me sold on the bike lever throttle. Good idea on the longer throttle linkage to make it less sensitive.

The LJ programming sounds spooky. Yikes!

Good move to focus on your main project... I got sidetracked for a while on other projects and am happy to be making more progress on this one again! Wagons are cool though! Would love to see what you'd do with one when you get there!

Thanks for your comments- always interesting points!
 
You mentioned "I will probably do that on the one I am building now"...Do you have a new build you're working on?

Thanks for your feedback!
You are welcome. I love seeing people dive in with both feet and end up producing some really nice work.

I don't do the forum builds much anymore, but you can follow along on IG or FB using the tag #oldbluewillys. It is a customer build that is gonna be pretty neat. CJ3A with a 3B windshield, totally new inside floor and tubs. It will be on a new custom frame, linked suspension on both ends with a belly subframe. The guts will be 4.3FI engine, SM420 trans, D20 with low gears and front dig, probably custom D44s, 37s, 8274 winch, etc. As you well know all the little stuff along the way is what makes it special.
 
Discussion starter · #812 ·
Thanks for the nice comments Meiser! Means a lot!

Thanks for the info on your new customer build. The overall plan of major components and suspension approach sounds really cool. I scanned through your FB posts and it's really coming along. Will be going through again in detail to see everything you've done. Great work patching all that rust and holes... yikes! Cool suspension plan- like all the CAD design work and anxious to see how it all comes together. Really great that you are taking on projects for customers! Cool!
 
Discussion starter · #815 ·
Thanks for your very nice comment nofender! I really appreciate it. YOUR work is really impressive. Your East Coast Willys Story build thread has been an inspiring read to follow. How's the new CJ5 project coming along? Sure have enjoyed reading about your flat fender builds. Really superb work!
 
Discussion starter · #816 ·
Hi 49willys_mogon. Your wagon build is another real inspiring read! Your workmanship is really top notch! Thanks for the feedback on the dead pedal, bright switch and throttle control. I'm still playing around with how close I can place the pedals to see if I can get room on the left for my foot and potential dead pedal/switch. More on that at the end of the next posts... I like your integrated idea with the dimple die surface for grip.

That throttle control is really trick! Hadn't seen that before. Very cool set up. Thanks for the heads up!
 
Discussion starter · #817 · (Edited)
Gas Pedal

Finished making a gas pedal. Here's what it looks like:



I decided to make my own so I'd have more flexibility in getting it to fit well. Lots of aftermarket pedals are too short to clear the trans tunnel, and I also wanted to mount it to align well next to the raised tunnel and to route nicely into the engine compartment. I also didn't want the chrome/billet look.

Mounting on the firewall recess corner provided a nice straight travel path for the pedal arm that easily clears the tunnel and has lots of travel. Using a fairly wide pivot shaft length (2" including bushings) places the cable arm at the flat section of the firewall for easy cable routing into the engine compartment.

I also thought through the pedal ratio. The pedal arm length is set at 7.5" from pivot center to pedal center, and with a pad that's 3" long. This was chosen to get a comfortable foot position. Using the lower part of the pedal pad, it's effectively around 8.75" c-c. This foot position is most useable when the pedal is at light throttle, and gives a little higher ratio to be less twitchy. After setting the pedal arm length, I decided on the cable arm length of 6.25" center to center. That got the cable high enough to enter the engine compartment at a nice height, and the ratio ends up 1.2:1 to 1.4 - depending on where you are pressing the pedal pad. I wanted the ratio to be a little towards the "slower", or less sensitive side. Some aftermarket pedals like Billet Specialties are 1:1 which I think is too sensitive. The Lokar pedal I measured was about 1.1:1. A few spoon style pedals with multiple cable attachment points range from 1.2 to 1.4 depending on the attachment point selected. I think what I came up with will work pretty well- generally about 1.2:1 but more like 1.4:1 when using the lower part of the pad. We'll see once its on the trail...

Here's all the pieces before final assembly:



The mount attaches on the firewall recess curve, as shown in the above pic. I formed the plate on a press using a heavy wall tube as a form- the same tube form that I used to make the firewall sheet metal bend. The rest is a piece of DOM tube and a short piece of rectangular tube. The bushings are the same as what I used in the brake pedal assembly, although one is shorter to match the tube width.

One issue with the DOM tube after welding is the ID warped slightly plus there was some scale to clean off inside the tube- so the bushings didn't fit well. A little clean up using a brake cylinder hone chucked in a hand drill restored a nice smooth bore with no slop in the bushing fit.

The pedal arm welds to the pivot shaft, once its position is set. The cable arm is removable so that the bushings can be replaced. Lokar pedals use a spline on the gas pedal arm for adjustability and a D shaft & hole on the cable arm. I figured that once I set the position I want, welding the pedal arm means one less screw to loosen up-so I went with welding that side. I used the D shaft idea to make the removable cable arm. I turned the shaft ends on my little old lathe and cut the flat on the shaft using a file. The D hole in the arm started as a scribed layout, then was drilled with an undersize hole. The D profile was then filed with a round chainsaw sharpening file, a small flat file, and a half round needle file to hit the corners. Took my time and get a nice fit. I also turned the end washer piece that fits the flathead screw to firmly clamp the arm to the shaft. Here's a pic:



Welded the foot pad on the pedal:



Here's the assembly ready to mount and to set the pedal arm position for welding:



Here's some pics of the finished assembly. It took way too much time, but I'm glad I decided to put in the effort, as I'm happy with how it fits:





 
Discussion starter · #818 · (Edited)
Some assembly required...

I decided to mount the pedal assemblies and master cylinders, then do a final assessment and tweak of the brake and clutch pedal positions. Here's some shots of all of the pedal assemblies and master cylinders mounted up. With everything mounted up, I'll sit in my mocked up seat and play with the pedals some more to see if I can squeeze some room for a left side foot rest....then weld on the brake and clutch pads.

Measured the firewall positioning multiple times and crossed my fingers that I got it right, then drilled and finished all the holes in the firewall. The flat sections of the firewall are 0.120" and the pedal box also will anchor at the dash, so I didn't use a reinforcement plate on the front of the firewall. Here's everything mounted up, with the cowl removed:



The Tilton clutch MC is short, which I like because it will enable me to run a cage tube in the engine compartment next to it. It also has a nice big reservoir, or can run a divorced reservoir. However, I knew I was going to have a close call on clearance of the reservoir cap with the firewall flange. Sure enough, it was a problem. One option is to use a divorced reservoir, but it was close enough that i could keep it simple, so I made a 0.250" spacer to move it out for clearance. This worked great. The cap now clears the firewall flange fine.







Here's shot of the powerboost and master cylinder positions on the firewall. There will be enough room for a cage tube to run from the upper corner of the firewall to a radiator hoop in the engine compartment as I had hoped to accomplish.



I was also concerned about PCV valve clearance with the powerboost pressure cylinder, and this worked out OK too. The front of the cylinder sits just behind the PCV, and has a reasonable amount of vertical clearance too:



Rough adjusted the pushrods on the brake and clutch and the brake switch and clutch pedal stop. Here's the brake switch and clutch MC pedal stop set up:



Here's the pedal travel bottomed out with full brake master cylinder stroke, and with full clutch master cylinder stroke (at the pedal stop to protect from overextension). Both have plenty of firewall clearance.

Brake:



Clutch:



Here's the assemblies viewed from the drivers seat with the cowl back on. Now that everything is mounted up, I'll be playing with the pedal pad positioning to see if I can squeeze room on the left for a foot rest per Meiser's suggestion in prior posts.



This photo shows a temporary lower cage A pillar in the position I have been intending to mount the final cage. The idea is to eliminate the usual formed sheet metal upright side body supports by attaching the body side panels to tabs on the A pillar, with the cage tube placed such that it bisects the dash- as in the above temporary set up. This gets the cage tube out of the way for entrance and exit. It would also work nice for the way I have planned to make the final dash. The down side though is that moving it forward from the typical cage positioning in order to integrate it into the dash also moves it inward due to the angled body sides - increasing crowding of the foot space to the left of the clutch pedal.

As part of figuring out final pedal placement, I'm thinking about whether to move the A pillar back to a more conventional position (with a space between it and the dash). This would gain about 7/8" in space for foot clearance to the left of the pedal. It's also easier to place a dash bar across the A pillars above the dash. I would need to rethink the body side panel attachment and dash support though. I have some rough ideas to address that, and will be pondering that along with the pedal pad placement. If it means the difference between having the dead pedal / foot rest space or not, then I'll change the cage concept to gain the space. If it's too crowded even with the cage change such that I don't gain anything, then I'll stay with the original cage concept. The next puzzle piece to solve!
 
One thing I have never liked about my FFender was how far the dash was from the seat. I am a tall guy with the seat moved back as far as possible. I cannot reach the dashboard key with a tight harness on. As a result I have a redundant kill and starter button between the seats. The last thing you want in the dunes is a dead engine. That can almost be an instant roll. Then I went from a in-control FFender to a out-of-control LJ. Stick and bad throttle control. That forced me into really looking into changes and ergonomics. Having the center console pushed back to you was a definite plus, but my locker switches were near the bottom. Finally, as time has gone on, I have replaced the radio with a smaller face/remote unit to put the locker switches where most people want in-reach convenience, and the throttle control on the shifter where I usually have my hand close to it. A steering column with switches is a plus, but has never been cool but maybe today it is.

I have learned so much, from others or the internet, messing with the uncomfortable or sketchy.

We used to have a Flatville morning on the Jeepers Jamboree/Rubicon where we would round up the 20-50 Flat Fenders on the trip to compare notes and celebrate. That was where we stole ideas as before the Internet. I saw the benefit of a console but it wasn't cool. But I also had to be told about dropping the height of the door "sill." Dropping the edge 1-2" inches made a whole heck of a difference getting in and out. It was not easily perceptible. And now with bigger tires, I would look at that for sure.... It goes on with lots of choices. And why we hang out around these cool builds.
 

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Discussion starter · #820 ·
Thanks for the further thoughts on ergonomics ISDTBower. I'm with you on the distance to the dash in a flat fender! Not too bad of a reach with long legs scrunched up in the stock seating position and with the relatively upright column, but as you move the seat back and rake the column back to get some leg room then the dash starts getting really far away. I'm six feet and need the legroom. Sitting in my mocked up seating position to check out pedal placement, I'm really noticing the dash distance issue and the shifters are pretty far away too. I'll need to bend them back a bit.

I'm trying to keep a bit of a retro theme going and not sure i'd want to go with a big center console like some buggies run - I'm partial to some of the traditional aesthetics you mention from your earlier Rubicon get togethers (sounds like a blast!). On the other hand, I also like seeing simple dash layouts without a lot of clutter.

I do have some controls I've been planning to place in a mini console area between the seats. My battery is under the driver seat and I'm thinking I'll put a rotary Blue Marine kill switch right next to me in the center console next to the battery. I also plan to put the air locker solenoids and pressure switch under the console panel and put the control switches on top - easy to reach. The hand brake will also mount at the front of that area. A lot of stuff to fit , but I think it could work.

Whether I go with a bike shifter throttle or the quick release JB unit that 49willys_mogon tipped me on, I'm thinking mounting it to the transmission stick would make good sense -like your photo. While the JB can mount on a panel or on the stick, I agree that the stick would be easiest to reach given that the dash is far away.

I appreciate the ideas to steal!
 
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