'99 Montero Sport 3.5L Limited SAS

pike2350 said:

Like the truck....i've always like the Montero Sport....any further updates? don't see anything since New Years Day.

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Still going. Mostly I've been collecting parts. I have the NWF crawl box, TeraLow 231, Mitsubishi '97 AW3 (aka Jeep AW4) transmission, RADesigns' Winters 'Rock Gate' moded shifter, 2" body lift, air intake, brake lines and fittings, and a bazillion other parts.

I still have to get an electric fan and some other stuff before I can start tearing into it. And I have to wait for the snow to melt to get it into my garage now.

I kinda got side tracked with the big Sport. I started figuring out the brakes for the '99 and decided to test my theories on the '97 and that kinda lead to a complete rebuild and redesign of virtually the entire brake system.

And THAT lead to talking to the guys at one of the shops who got me to thinking about changing the brake assemblies on the ProRocks to the JK stuff and going away from the Exploder rear and GM G52 front.

Also been putting a lot of time into getting the big '97 Sport ready for our Moab trip here in two weeks.

Anyway, its still going. Just slower than I'd like. Once were back from Moab and the spring weather hits, I'll be able to get started wrenching. I still have to figure out what to do with the front suspension. As much as I really want to do a 3-link, its more likely it'll end up being extended radius arms.

Edward

Things have changed yet again ...

Since Tera stopped producing the Low231, I scraped the NWF box (that is going into my '97 to replace the Box4Rocks from Duffy I installed 8 years ago) and the NP231 with the Low231. The new NP231/Low231 will be a spare for the '97. Not that there's really any choice, I settled on an Atlas 4-speed.

This has taken so long that Yokohama quit making the Geolandar M/T+. So, besides new 17" rims from Stockton, I picked up a set of the new Geolandar G003's in 37x12.5s. I'm happy with the choice but I'm willing to see how they do. Keeping my fingers crossed.

New Dynatrac axles are at the shop. D60 in the back and D44/60 hybrid for the front. Since, whether I like it or not, I'm going to be running a lot heavier tire/rim setup, I figured the 60 outers were probably a good idea. Fitting a D60 in the front would be a nightmare. Figured the hybrid was a compromise I could live with.

No front 3-link. Partially 'cause I chickened out, but partially because no matter how I set it up it was going to cause ongoing long term maintenance issues. The truck is still getting Kings, though. Anyway, extended radius arms in the front.

Alcan leafs in the back and a anti-wrap bar.

2" body lift - which is already done.

The modified Mitsu V4AW3 - which is just a late model AW4 - is back from the trans shop. Trans Go shift kit, 23 spline output shaft and Jeep tail shaft housing to mount the Atlas. Rory's (RADesign) Winters rock shifter with the shift electronics. Since this is not going to be a trailer queen and it has to pass emissions, I'm keeping the trans TCM controlled. Since the TCM has two calibration settings, A will be normal automatic functionality and B will be full manual shift which will automatically kick in any time the t-case is shifted into any low gear. Should be interesting.

Hydro assist on the steering.

Anyway, now that all the major parts are here, we're starting the end of the month. Rather than try and maintain two build threads, the details are linked to below ...

1999 Montero Sport Limited 3.5L crawler build

Edward

montrose818 said:

Right on. I remember reading your stuff long time ago. See to me - the monty drivetrain is just perfect for a mild rig on 32s/33s. I used to want to SAS one, but then realized after all is said and done, there's not going to be much Monty left

I am still looking for one to maybe throw 32s on and call it a day, as a backyard / urban queen / whatever rig. I may go with the 02+ because of the AWD case - better for my purposes (snow etc), 3.5 standard, and I think the roof is a little taller on the newer ones

Will keep checking your build thread

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Yea, been a while. Had trouble finding someone qualified to do the work. Then I spent almost a year trying to come up with a TCM. And I've been rebuilding the '97 for the last couple years, so that has kinda side-tracked me. I finally decided to retire the '97 from UT duty so that got me more motivated to get the '99 done.

I agree with you. Both the Montero and the Montero Sport are really capable vehicles with very little modification. I've had all four of my Sports to UT. The little '97 only has a bull bar, skids and 31" ATs, the '03 3.5L AWD Limited is bone stock and the green '99 just has the body lift, no rear sway bar and 31" ATs right now. Considering what level they're at, they'll do pretty amazing things. I wasn't intending to take the '99 out to Moab last month, but I was impressed with the performance off road. I get so used to driving my big '97 that I forget what they'll do almost stock.

The problem we've run into is that the trails we want to run are past what a stock or near stock Mitsu's will do (or do reliably). Right now, I'm right at the edge of what I can do with my big '97. Most of the trails we do require a good bit of clearance - more than stock even with 33"s - and a LOT better approach and departure angles. I also need a lot more travel and articulation than the OEM IFS could every hope to supply - even my big '97 doesn't have enough. And I need a lot deeper gearing in both the axles and t-case than the OEM stuff.

The major things we're doing to the '99 is lengthening the wheel base another 2-2.5", moving the engine back 1.5" (and maybe up 1-1.5") and widening the axles (above the already widened over stock big '97 axles). The '99 is also going to be build about 4-5" shorter than the '97.

So the point is a lot more clearance, articulation, wheel travel in the front and stability. The goal is to have a vehicle that will let me do Pritchett, Behind the Rocks and some of the un-named stuff elsewhere we've found over the years. It still probably won't be as capable as Danny's, but I'm hoping for close.

Yea, my '03 Sport has another 2" of head room. I'm not overjoyed with the AWD, but it works. The 3.5L rocks! Definitely the thing for CO! Make sure you get the 4.90s.

Edward

montrose818 said:

What's your favorite year of the Sport, seeing you've had several? Which transfer case does better in snow and such? I would have guessed AWD does better?

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Still have several. 2 LS M/T '97s, 1 '99 Limited 3.5L and 1 '03 Limited 3.5L AWD.

My favorite 'year' is the first generation (in the US) FED '97-99 3.0L (LS/XLS). Minimal electronics, leaf springs in the rear, V4AW3 A/T (Jeep AW4 with different output housing) so with minimal effort there are t-case options, 'plane Jane' locking t-case (if you want to stay OEM) & factory rear locking diff. The M/T was still available but you loose the t-case swap option unless you build an entire adapter assembly which I don't recommend (not worth the hassle unless you're a machinist). No monkey business to install an ARB bull bar. Leafs handle load better than coils so adding a bunch of weight (bumpers, gear, whatever) doesn't much affect the gen 1's. Better insulated and better built.

With the '99 Limited (and '00+ for everything else) Mitsu started getting crazy with the electronics, which started making if difficult to make major modifications under some circumstances. Besides that, its just easier to make (trail) repairs the simpler things are.

Three of my Sports have generic locking t-cases (2 M/Ts and 1 A/T). Only my '03 is AWD (A/T). The little '97 and '03 have Geolandar A/T+ tires, the big '97 Geolandar M/Ts and the '99 some generic aggressive A/Ts. They all get driven in the same conditions and the ONLY difference that would make me prefer the AWD t-case over the generic Mitsu locking t-case in 4-HI is that the AWD system is better behaved at higher speed (50-55Mph+, because it doesn't lock F/R), I don't have to shift when the road surface/conditions change and in my experience my '03 does slightly better in deeper (15-20"+) snow because the AWD models weigh about 100-400 lbs more than the non-AWD models. It makes no difference if its in AWD or 4WD, its just a gross vehicle weight advantage. 'Better behaved' is relative - if you actually need 4WD/AWD then you probably shouldn't be going 70 MPH, so....

Drawbacks to AWD - suck fuel, eat tires and if you don't keep your tires rotated so they wear even you'll eventually be replacing the t-case.

I absolutely wouldn't buy an AWD model if I were planning on using it off road. The stock tire size on my '03 is slightly less than 32" so I know they'll do fine with that, but I don't think 33x12.5 or 35x12.5 M/Ts would be a good idea long term.

Edward

montrose818 said:

thanks for the info. Searching these days for mitsu info is difficult, since not very many use them in the US.

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No worries!

What do you think about comparing the sport to the full size monty - both pre 01 and post 03 (with the 3.8)? I've read that the sport has the same drivetrain (axles shafts and all) as the full size montys?

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I'm not too familiar with the '01+ Montero so I don't have much of an opinion there. IMHO, the '90s models are a better option if you were planning on modifying one taking it off road. Same as the '00+ Sports - if you plan on doing modifications, better off with the older ones. Overall, the differences are pretty much the same as between a Land Cruiser and 4-Runner. I'm sure the Montero guys would have a different opinion, but I prefer the Sport. Smaller vehicle and lower CG.

I haven't driven anything with the 3.8L. Supposed to have a little more 'umph' than the 3.5L. The Montero had the 5-speed in front of the 3.5L - which was a significant improvement in my experience.

Mitsu used a lot of the same parts on the Montero and Montero Sport. I can't tell you exactly which matches what though. The Montero is a couple years a head of the Sport always. For instance the Montero had the 3.5L back in '96 where the Sport didn't get it until '99.

Yes, they do use the same axles, shafts, t-cases, transmissions, engines (except for the DOHC - never came in US Sport), P/S pumps, alternators, compressors, etc., but again I don't know which ones use the same stuff. Things like axles, axle gears and shafts, I don't keep up on because if I'm messing with something like that its to torch everything off and transplant Danas or some such. I lost the will to fight years ago. Its just easier to torch everything off to get real axle gears.

I like the Sport, Pre 01, and Post 03 equally - in different ways. Its hard for me to compare them, because they are all different. I'd love to have all 3, although that would be pretty impractical

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The 'gen 2' is just a cheaper quality version of the 'gen 1' Sport. Less modifiable. Less practical for off road use. My '03 serves one purpose and its good for that otherwise I'd get rid of it. Its my emergency vehicle - I drive that when my real vehicles are in the shop and its my trailer vehicle.

The 'gen 2' Sports have some improvements over the 'gen 1' Sports but mostly they're cosmetic and/or pointless - or worse, a step backwards. Like the enormous axles in my '03 - for why? Mitsu never had axle problems on anything and they suck fuel. The A/C was definitely improved, I will concede that. The coil springs suck. Headlights suck. Bigger brakes are nice and are somewhat useful if towing. Lumbar support was WAY overdue. 2" more roof? I'm 6' and I have had no problem with the old roof even if the seat is all the way up. The stereo in my '99 kicks the crap out of my '03 - even though they're supposed to be the exact same option package. AFAIKT they took all the body insulation out of the 'gen 2' - or maybe its just "by '03" - which really, REALLY sucks in southern UT in the summer.

IMHO the '99 Limited was the pinnacle of the Sport line. Which isn't saying much. It got the new A/C, the 3.5L, the V51 A/T, lumbar support and a more powerful PCM (instead of the individual ECM and TCM units) while retaining the leaf springs, smaller but still more than adequate axles, real glass headlights, rear tire carrier, locking rear differential and real Infinity stereo system (and a keyless/alarm system that didn't leave you stranded). The V51 transmission isn't that great and a separate ECM/TCM is a lot better for off road enthusiasts, but for what it was intended to be, the '99 Limited is probably the most durable and versatile of the Sports. IMHO, its definitely the most practical.

I have no use for anything (from any brand) after about 2005. Every year they're more useless for what I want vehicle for, contain even more garbage I don't want and the quality gets even worse.

Edward

montrose818 said:

Actually you know what, forget the engine. Both the 3.0 and 3.5 will be gutless after all my other vehicles, so I will probably end up swapping in a jeep 4.0 or something.

You got me sold though, just the glass headlight make it worth it. I hate plastic. I'll post pics if / when I pick something up, but it might be a couple months since I spent a ton of money this year already. I am excited though. I have wanted one since I was 17, had a 2000 Sport but it was 2WD loved the rig though.

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Externally, the only difference is the "Limited" tag. Which may or may not be there after this long. Otherwise they look the same as a XLS. Engine is the only real way to tell - which isn't 'external' of course.

There is a significant difference between the 3.0L and 3.5L. The 3.5L produces a lot more torque than the 3.0L. For an off road vehicle, that's a big +. Yes, either will probably be a dog compared to anything else you may have driven, but in a strict comparison between the 3.0L and 3.5L, the 3.5L is in a different world.

Don't discount the '99 3.5L Limited. Its the 'gen 1' equivalent of a 'gen 2' (00-04) Sport. Basically all the good parts of the latter ones without the drawbacks. Yes, you could swap in the GM engine but if you're looking at primarily an off road vehicle, the 3.5L with the AW4 A/T isn't a bad deal. The Mitsu AW3 isn't that hard to find yet. Slap a shift kit in it and convert to all manual shifting (RADesigns), 2" body lift and you can slap an Atlas on the end and be ready to go. SAS is a short jump from there, which I would presume you'd be doing if you're going through the trouble of an entire engine/transmission swap.

I don't know if you've been following my build thread on 4x4wire, but almost all the wiring for the transmission swap you can ignore if you go manual shift. Drop in a pair of 44s or a 60 and a 44 and stick in 5.13's or 5.38's with 35"s and you'd be ready to go.

The one nice thing about getting a 3.0L gen 1 is you will already have the AW3 (Jeep AW4) transmission, TB, cables, etc. You will basically have to get a '98-01 Jeep Cherokee output housing and MAYBE a 23-spline Jeep AW4 output shaft. So far I have one AW3 with the third grove and one AW3 without - its a toss up and you won't know until you pull the t-case and Mitsu output housing off. The shafts and Jeep housing won't run more than $200 and that's all you need to put an Atlas or NP on the back. You HAVE to pull the transmission to swap shafts so that's a good time to put the shift kit in.

If you are looking at Gen 1's, I'd look in this order. '99 Limited, '99-'98 3.0L XLS/LS, '97 3.0L XLS/LS. MAKE SURE BEFORE YOU BUY if it's a '99 3.0L, it has the AW3 A/T (you can basically tell by looking at the throttle body and seeing if there are two cables attached to the crank - upper is the A/T, lower if the pedal - otherwise look for the tag on the PS side of the trans body to the rear of the cooler lines). KIM that cruise control is different across years - if you WANT cruise, MAKE SURE YOU GET IT ON THE VEHICLE as there is no way to retrofit it.

XLS vs LS depends on how many interior gee-gaws you want. I prefer leather cause it's durable and super easy to clean. I also REALLY like the oem Infinity stereo system with the amp, and dual antennas. Heated seats, mirrors and the rear seat heater are really nice if you wheel in the winter as I do or you drive it occasionally in the winter. I would try to get one with the rear tire carrier if at all possible. OEM locker works but its worthless if you do a SAS, so ....

If you decide to go with a 3.5L Limited, KIM, you must modify the (a) 3.5L throttle body to accept the A/T throttle cable. YOU MUST HAVE THAT HOOKED UP AND WORKING CORRECTLY (irrespective of whether its a 3.0L or 3.5L) because that controls line pressure (its NOT a 'kick down' cable). You will need a (correct) 3.0L throttle body to scavenge the bell crank parts from and you can find those for $40-70 on eBay. I used a '99-03 3.0L TB w/cruise to do mine. I just finished doing mine so I'll have pics up soon. (You MAY be able to just change the TPS and IAC plugs to 3.0L plugs and use the 3.0L TB straight up but its a lot harder to get plugs than swap the crank )

The downside of using the 3.0L engine is that you REALLY need to swap out the axles so you can get real gears and/or install an Atlas. The OEM gears are like 4.2something and that engine produces NO torque to speak of. Effective 4.63:1 (tire size and axle ratio) at the pavement is absolutely as tall as you want to go IMHO, and that requires 5.38 gears with 35" tires. With that configuration you'll want 4:1 in the t-case. If you can get at least 4.90s (on an A/T), 3:1 would probably be ok. KIM this is altitude dependent - higher altitude = lower gears.

I would strongly recommend planning on swapping axles for anything that will take a minimum of 4.90s. A deep t-case with tall axle gears (and big tires) is a great recipe for busted axle gears and u-joints. For a A/T 3.0L on 35"s, my recommendation would be 5.13s with 3:1 in the t-case. You won't be doing any mud bogging, but that would be pretty nice on the rocks. Before going to 4:1, I'd go to a multi-speed t-case - 2.72/3 or 2.72/4, and you'd definitely need to bulk up the brakes.

I run 5.38s with 2.72/4:1 on 35"s in the black M/T Sport with the 3.5L. Except for crossing the high passes (11000ft) on the interstates, its very comfortable. Its not a race car but the torque and gearing make it a lot zippyier than people expect, especially in town. More importantly, I can add 1000lbs to the vehicle and its almost unnoticeable with the 3.5L (even in the mountains). That was most certainly NOT the case with the 3.0L with exactly the same gearing. If you're building a crawler, this is very important as the lbs add up REALLY fast. My black Sport comes in at almost 6000lbs now - without camping gear or passengers.

IMHO, you might want to rethink the engine swap thing unless you really plan to run it on the highway a lot. If you really looking to build a serious off road vehicle, a SAS and the replacement of the rear axle as well and a new t-case are going to almost hand you on a silver platter the one thing you need to make the 3.0L or 3.5L work - gearing.

Edward