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Discussion Starter #1
I picked up my doubler setup today, I've been working with Casey and his crew from Wagoner Machine to enable me to run the 203/205 doubler in a 104" WB YJ.
Those guys do kickass work!!
Here's how it goes, a 435 transmission with cut and resplined tailshaft, ans a new custom built adapter (2 1/4")
An NP 203 with 3.1:1 gearset (5 3/4")
Doubler adapter (3")
And the NP 205 with twin sticks
The overall assembly measured from the front of the transmission to the center of rear yoke of T/C is only 34"
I crawled under my buddy's TJ and measured his, he has the AX-5 and NP231 with SYE, the measurements from the same points comes out to 33 1/2"
That's right guys, my drivetrain with the dual cases is only 1/2" longer and considerably shorter than stock!
I'll be posting up pictures and a better write up as soon as I can.
I couldn't wait though, I had to say something because this thing is just badass!
Casey and WMS are top notch.
 

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Nice.

So if my math is right the 205 is only 12" front face to rear yoke center? Damn, I thought they were longer, my 300 is 11".

I have a question though about drivelines.... I can't remember if you are leaf spring or link or whatever... I just lengthened my WB to 104.5-105, and with my current setup (4500/300) which is 30 3/8" long ( 36 7/8" with the BH), my driveline is 31" center to center at ride height with a 16* operating angle (21* shaft, tcase is facing 5* down). 14 Bolt rear- F150s SOA with shackle hanger below frame. 1350 CV/1410 at yoke now.

Any thoughts on your driveline length? angle?

I was hoping to do the same with a 465/203/300.

With the above setup (4500/300) I wore out multiple 1310 CVs with a 25* operating angle (25" driveline, shorter WB and an antiwrap bar). I am now a little leary about reducing my driveline to any shorter than what it is right now (31"). In theory, using your numbers above that would mean my drivetrain would be 3 5/8" longer than it is now.

Just wondering if you had done any estimating on driveline length/angle. Hope this isn't considered a thread hijack. Thanks
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Spank said:
Wow, so what reduction do you end up with, from the 203 + 205 combo?
1.96:1 with the 205 (or)
3.1:1 with the 203 (or)
6.07:1 in low/low
C/R with the rest of my setup is 198:1 in LO/LO
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
Charly,
I havn't got into the particulars of drive angle as far as length of driveshaft and operating angle.
Just crunching numbers as for the length of this.
I was going to push the motor ahead about an inch or two.
And move the rear axle back 5", I also have HP D60's front and rear. I can't forsee a problem with angles.
I just got off the phone with Casey before I posted this, he told me that the guys wanting to do this with a D300 would be shorter still.

I lost alot of length losing the stock 435 adapter and cutting resplining it's output shaft
 

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Congrats.

I'm working on probably the exact same setup right now. I've found a place to make my adapters, if I recall they are damn close to the length of yours, any rough estimate how much WMS charged for each adapter? All the parts are sitting here in the garage waiting to be assembled. Still looking for the engine though.

Bob
Going to Ford 302, NP435, NP203, NP205
Already got 60 rear 44 front 8 luggers.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
TJBob said:
any rough estimate how much WMS charged for each adapter?
Well the doubler adapter was $750.00
I don't know what they'll be asking for the shorter 435/203 adapter, I got the first one and didn't pay anything for it.....long story.
They take very good care of their customers.
 

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doctor_G said:


Well the doubler adapter was $750.00
:eek:

I'm sure you'll mount all that shit rock solid. It would suck to break a mount and trash that adapter $$$$$$$$
 

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This is an almost identical setup to the wild horses doubler kit, which I used to do my doubler setup:

http://www.rightcoastcrawler.com/LloydC/tech/TrannyProject.html

Yours is better in the use of the 205, that's cool.

Just for reference, my measurements were about the same, perhaps shorter. I had to lengthen my driveshaft 2 inches from my old AX15/231 with SYE setup when I put this in - meaning the 435/203/20 was 2 inches shorter than the stock setup with SYE.

The wild horses 435/203 adapter might have been shorter than yours, but if so, only slightly.

Overall this type of setup is a terrific way of getting a doubler in within the short confines of a short wheel base.

How does your 203 sit? Mine sits sorta pointing 'down', I'd like to clock it so that the face with the cover is horizontal, which would allow me to have a flatter skid - did yours come like this?

I wonder how much the 203/205 adapter is......
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Bigdude, you're absolutely right!
ChadLloyd, was the Wild Horses 435/203 adapter for a 27 spline input? They told me at WMS that a 27 spline would be 2 1/8"
Mine is 31 spline.
Yes, the 203 sits so the cover lays horizontal.
The 203/205 adapter was the one for $750.00
When using the 205 it's unlikely that it could be made shorter, the shift rails would have no clearance with anything less.
Are you happy about your setup? How does it work for you?

I need to get out there and take some pics! :D
 

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Well, as I recall (was a while ago now), the WH 435/203 was 23 spline - it was the 203 from the dodge automatic that I needed, so I thought all dodge's were 23 spline. I could be wrong, if I am, then someone on this board will probably correct me. I'm not 100% sure because all I did was take the new 435 shaft with me to the junk yard and stick it in 203s until I found one that fit. But I'm pretty sure it's 23 spline, because I kinda remember taking the same 435 output shaft and sticking it into my buddies Dana 300 as an experiment. And it fit.

See, the Wild Horse's kit is basically made up (this is my opinion, based on what I saw when I had it laid out on the floor) of a mix and match of AA parts. BOTH adapter plates had 'AA' stamped on them, as I recall. The shaft I am sure is the 435/300 shaft they sell. But AA does not sell this as a kit. WH buys the various little bits, then reassembles them into a new kit, and sells that. IMHO. The shaft they cut down a little so it wil fit between the 435 and 203 - I'm not sure what the 435/203 adapter was originally for, but I'm pretty sure it had AA stamped on it. So basically I think they figured out that if you took the AA 435/300 shaft, cut off 1.5 inches of spline, and used the adapter from some other kit, you could mate them together with a very thin (~1.75 inches, I think) adapter, then they used some other AA parts to adapt the back 1/2. Again, this is all conjecture on my part, that is just the way it looked when I had the parts laid out in front of me.

I am extremely happy with my setup. It works extremely well. For reference I run the stock 4.0 and 4.56 gears. Basically you can crawl as slow as you need to - no matter what angle you're trying to climb, it won't stall, no problem going slow on the down side - but at the same time it is really easy to get to upper ranges. Basically the great thing is the flexibility of the whole thing - no matter kind of trail I am on, I can always find a suitable range. There are other advantages too. For instance, backin up - the 435 has a super low reverse gear, if I had a single transfer case with 4:1 gears, backin up would get real painful, now I can pop the 203 into high real quick and get a much better range right away. helps when you are backing up long distances. I know you can always switch into 'high' with a single transfer case, but we are talking convenience here, folks.

Anyway, I am very happy with it and the way it performs. I got it within the confines of the stock skid, but it took some doing. And I'd like it to be flatter.

The other thing is worrying about the 20 strength. Yes, you can buy heavy duty output shaft stuff for it, but have you seen the price of that stuff???? Geez!

My basic plan is to some day go either atlas highlander or 205 (with 3:1 gear set in either the 203 or 205), and clock everything so it is higher. On my current setup, the 203 is 2:1, and the 20 is 2.46:1 - not THAT much difference, although you do notice it. The 'flexibility' of the whole thing would be increased by more difference in the 2 low ranges, so what you have set up sounds really really good.

So the basic plan is probably get the current 435/203 adapter machined to rotate the 203, then get either ORD or WMS adapters for either a 205 or atlas behind that...... whatever allows everything to rotate up flat.

So your 205 is also flat??

How much for the 3:1 203 gears? Sounds pricey.

WMS is expensive, but I've had nothing but good experiences TALKING to them (all I can do is talk to them, I can't afford to actually BUY anything from them yet) - talked to me for like an hour about 60 knuckles, even though he knew up front I wasn't going to buy his. That's service.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Thanks alot for your feedback Chad, good to hear how you're making use of your setup.
When I ordered the doubler adapter, I got the one that clocked the 205 stock, I wasn't sure how much room I had to play with as far as it clearing everything. I'm sure once I get it in, I'll wish I had ordered it clocked flat. Casey said that if you clock the 205 flat you're almost "sitting" on the case.
The 3.1:1 gearset for the 203 was $1000. They need to machine the case to fit the new larger gears, then they TIG weld a strap over the outside of the case to get the strength back.
IMO, not a bad rate for the work involved.
 

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Have they done the same thing for other trannys?
I've always liked the 203doubler idea, but the length and my T18 didn't make it reasonable.
I think a stock ratio 203-Dana300 would be cheeper, take up a little less space, weigh less, and almost give you the same ratios. 2:1, 2.7:1, 5.4:1. You would need to upgrade the output and twin stick it though.
 

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Doc,

How are you driving the speedo/pulse generator from the 205?

(have a similar project planned)
 

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Discussion Starter #15
newt said:
Have they done the same thing for other trannys?
I'm not sure,
The stock adapter for the 435 is long and so is the tailshaft, I was going to make a shorter adapter and send the shaft to them to cut and respline.
A sub that they where contracting to make input gears didn't come through for them and we waited 4 months for the 31 spline input gears. He dumped the guy doing the gears and to make it right with me, offered to make up the adapter, set up shifters, rebuild the 435 and 205 and pay for all the shipping. :eek:
I almost felt bad for saying yes but how could I say no? Guess it pays to be patient.
I would give him a call about your questions, (918) 341-1722

As for the details for hooking everything up, I havn't got that far yet.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Here's a pic,
I'll be posting the others on Gen 4X4. under "WMS Doubler pics"
 

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With a 3:1 gearset, wouldnt the NP203 be a TRIPLER and not a DOUBLER? :D
 
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