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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
The 608.9

My Front 60/44 hybrid + some build begins:

Since i got a couple of PM's recommending i post a seperate thread regarding this I guess Im going to start one. there isnt a whole lot to cover and i was posting pictures in my jeep build thread but what the heck. heres my bonified full on polished turd for a front end.

As it comes together i'll post pictures, the same info will be post in my build but this seperates it for those looking for info on a 60/44 hybrid build.


wasnt sure what to call it there is nothing that rolls off the tongue like 609, or 60/44....but its not entirely a 60/44 hybrid its more imho with a jk44 R&P which is a different animal in many regards with the d60 sized pinion shaft, larger ring gear and deeper cut gears it deserves a little more consideration.


So Im going to call it a 608.9 since its a hybrid running a ring gear is 8.9" and its being matched to D60 outer parts


For my application i needed a low pinion front end, im doing a low slung sua build on my old cj and wanted a lp sua housing that would fit that part while looking clean and somewhat deceeiving.

I was eyeballing a 609 but for the money and parts that i already have this seemed like a fun alternative to try and build. My .02 is the RD147 is a little bigger than the RD99 air locker and they both have 35 spline side gears but the pocket bearing forces the RD99 case to be smaller but only marginally so. the dana 44 locker and the pinion offset of the D44 was a little better than the 9" for my passenger side front low pinion application .........the hypoid on the 9" is better for more tooth engagement and stength but the new cut on the jk gears seem to make up for alot of the old school dana 44's short comings in the pinion department.

Anyways a 3rd member drop out front end is so 2000...... if im going to be sticking to my old school build i got have it look the part and a dana 44 housing just looks like 1989 and therefore nothing special and a slightly modern upgrade with a tiny weenie run of the mill D44 girdled cover keeping it togehter and as a mask hiding the beefed up internals. Anyways I already have dana 44 housing so cost wise its a wash until you add the additional cost of a custom 9" housing and a high strength low pinion drop out, pinion supoport/skid.......



So this is the way the parts have fallen together:



So dug I up a J20 Dana 44 front housing (3" tubes with 1/2" walls) and low pinion
(YES I WANTED LOW PINION)

Picked up a new 4.88 JK Dana 44 8.9" ring in pinion (maybe not a ford 9" ring and pinion but close enough and an improvement over a 8.5" lp D44) and install kit. through Carl with Jana enterprises
I picked up a front dana 61 for cheap to steal most my parts from
Welded on the D61 king pin C's
chased down A 35 spline dana 44 ARB 3 series or also called a high speed carrier
Set it up so the short side shaft out of a chevy D60 can always be ordered or used and made the long side shaft the custom unit.
Axle seal for the 3" x 1/2" wall D44 tubes to 35 spline shafts is Napa #15292 its a double lip seal
did a little bit of shaving (grinding) to the bottom of the 44 housing

What i'm expecting this to end up being is Good clearance, lighter weight, stronger than a dana 44, close to a 609 in strength and in a package that is fairly decieving on the outside.

i'll have no doubts about running sticky 37's or 38's on this setup. granted ive picked my tire size and configuration just saying. sure the 609 would have a stronger R&P but the carrier is arguably weaker and a front 60 would have been ideal but would have hung down more and weighed more...... this way my setup keeps the rig a sleeper somewhat.


thats where things are at right now.......... the 608.9 is starting to come together.


Low budget 35 spline 44 hybrid axle project to look at also
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?p=14399620



I've gotten some PMs regarding this thread Sorry about the pictures webshots closed up and it'll take me awhile to remember what pictures used to be posted where, I'll be updating it as i have time
 

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Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
pictures speak louder than words


left to right Dana 60 4.88, JK 4.88, std D44 4.56

the side by side shots tell a little more



dana 60 4.88 vs jk dana 44 4.88 vs std dana 44 4.56


some close ups:
4.56:1 std dana 44 pinion on the top, 4.88 JK dana 44 pinion on the bottom






---------------------------------------
And for comparisons sake a 4.88 JK pinion on the left and a 4.88 dana 60 pinion on the right

or since i was an idiot and for got to rotate the picture the JK is on top dana 60 on the bottom
the pinions are the same diameter the jk just caught the light flash and looks larger but they are the same. 24 spline (jk) vs 29 spline (D60)


This gives a pretty good idea of the multiple size similarities between the 60 and the jk
jk is on the left dana 60 on the right



Whats interesting is the depth of the teeth on the JK pinion are the same as the dana 60..... i was quite shocked holding the jk R&P next to the 60 R&P, the only difference is length of the pinion and the diameter of the ring gear. but the surface area of the teeth on the ring gear, and the surface area of the teeth on the pinion and the depth / amount of tooth contact is really close. it is a significant difference from a std dana 44 pinion to ring gear relationship.


to build a 609 i was going to have to buy a aftermarket nodular 3rd member, $300 +/-, a ruffstuff housing $600 +/-, and a pinion gaurd $60+/-. On top of all my other parts.

this way i will be in this front end a smidge less than $2k and that includes buying the new ARB and new R&P. Hat tip goes out to Carl at Jantz enterprizes for figuring out the bearing and spacer combo to make the JK r&p fit a std LP housing via his jana 4k kit. Sure i could have done a 60 but looking at this R&P i think i'll be fine if i jump up in tire size ever, plus with my 401 its a little extra peace of mind, it may not be a 60 but it sure is alot closer in strength to a lp dana 60 front or a 609 than a std dana 44 or run of the mill dana 60/44 hybrid would be and i get the lighter package, clearance and the different factor.


jk and d60 pinions, obviously the dana 60 pinion teeth are still a little larger but the jk and dana 60 are much closer in size


dana 60 ring gear there is more meat but pretty close


jk ring gear
 

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Why are you going through all this trouble (read: buying the Jana kit) to run JK gears in your low pinion 44? Why don't you just find a HP44 housing and run standard reverse cut gears? The 44's weak point is not the R&P... the u-joints, ball joints, and shafts are what break. I see no need to run the bigger JK gear set for 37" tires. :confused:

Edit: just read that you "for my application i needed a low pinion front end." :zzz:
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
Why are you going through all this trouble (read: buying the Jana kit) to run JK gears in your low pinion 44? Why don't you just find a HP44 housing and run standard reverse cut gears? The 44's weak point is not the R&P... the u-joints, ball joints, and shafts are what break. I see no need to run the bigger JK gear set for 37" tires. :confused:

Edit: just read that you "for my application i needed a low pinion front end." :zzz:

Well thanks for giving the usual "why are you going through all the trouble response". kind of like the "why dont you just run a sbc" response that shows up in every different engine swap thread somebody has to say it for a thread to really get going so now this qualifies as a complete thread.

:confused:I guess a good question back at you is why do guys on here go through all the effort to build Low pinion 9 inch (609)front ends? If there is something to be gained and it fits the application its worth the effort. shoot just think if we were still stuck using spicer u joints and stock shafts for our front ends like 15-20 years ago


You dont, i do. who says its just limited to 37's and a 6 cyl thats a pretty bold assumption in the hardcore forum.


I dont need to put all the details in this thread but think 400+ ft/lbs 140:1+ gearing yet not wanting to have the hangdown and weight of a 60 while im on the smaler tires.


dana 44 pinions are a known problem look closer at picture of the std 44 pinion.

my front end has been flawless with the ctms and warn shafts it really has been a fantastic front end ......... and i could just regear and keep on going for alot longer but the lure of building something different, a combination of parts that appear to be stronger on all fronts yet in a compact package is tough not to attempt. the hard part is now i have to sell my existing front end and thats a shame.


Trouble...I call it fudge factor i'm giving myself more wiggle room strength wise....... trouble is doing the same thing everyone else does and buying off the shelf parts....setting up a r&p isnt difficult and why not show others how to do something a little different for better results and a possible cheaper avenue than a 609 and with less weight than a 60 and arguably similar r&p strength to a D60. but then again why not just put a lp 60 under there like every other tom dick and harry.


The jana kit is pretty affordable shoot a timken bearing kit would have cost me $125+/- and this came with a new yoke so im really only into the parts an extra $125 and then just have to invest a little extra effort.


as to clearance issues. starter, motor mounts and oil filter housing are all too close with a HP front end it limited my up travel on the passenger side.

After holding the two (a hp44 and a LP JK D44) and looking at them side by side Id put the JK low pinion 8.9" R&P up against a std HP 8.5" dana 44 any day the pinion shaft and pinion head diameters make up for any LP short comings and then some. especially since almost every front R&P ive ever fractured or broke has been while trying to do something in reverse. Like when you get high centered and try to back up and all the laod transfers to the front end.
 

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Ive long been interested in a hp44/60 and have most of the parts lined up. Thanks for that seal part number, ive never seen it put out there before. Any plans to shave the 44 housing for that much more clearance?
 

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You dont, i do. who says its just limited to 37's and a 6 cyl.

I dont need to put all the details in this thread but think 400+ ft/lbs 140:1+ gearing yet not wanting to have the hangdown and weight of a 60 while im on the smaler tires.
Ok - makes sense if you're wanting to run bigger tires and high hp/torque.
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
Ok - makes sense if you're wanting to run bigger tires and high hp/torque.
;)

the warmed amc 401's been in there for awhile, i'm a pretty gentile driver but since i am upgrading the time would be now to consider it



Any plans to shave the 44 housing for that much more clearance?

A little, i did grind flat the lower edge and surface but at this point any benefit will be minimal about a 1/2" more and im not feeling that motivated with all else i have going on. if it was a 60 it would be alot more benefit.. who knows i might still get a wild hair up my ass yet.
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
Very Rough numbers for comparisons sake:

ADD $1000 + for alloy shafts and joints across the board.



609 low pinion
Dana 61 for shafts, C’s, knuckles, spindles and misc other parts. $300
3rd member Nodular drop out $310 shipped http://www.amazon.com/G2-Axle-Gear-66-2011BN-Member/dp/B004PHB7N8
Pinion support, yoke $120
Ring and pinion $220
Bearing kit $130
Ruff stuff Housing $675
Axle tube Seals $40
RD99 ARB $1050 shipped
Narrowing/ welding $500
$3345.00

Dana 60
Complete axle housing $750 +/-
Narrowing/welding $500
Ring and pinion $220
Bearing kit $130
Diff cover $110
ARB RD167 $1050 shipped
$2860.00

608.9
Housing already had but cost of a housing is $100
Dana 61 for parts $300
Narrowing and welding $400
Ring and pinion $210
Jana k4 kit with bearings and seals $250
RD147 ARB $895 shipped
Axle tube seals $40
Diff cover (already have) $110
$2295.00
My cost minus cover & minus housing is at $1885.00 tecnically minus the welding too but figured id leave that in there to make the comparison fairly close.


Wagoneer Dana 44 std
Housing $100
Ring and pinion $210
bearings and seals $125
RD109 ARB $875 shipped
Diff cover $110
Alloy shafts $400
CTM joints $375
$2195.00 +/-



And for the high pinion comments and crowd
If i could fit a high pinion heres how i would have looked at it: obviously a ford dana 60 high pinion would have run +/- $200 of what a low pinion housing costs + more work flipping it around.

609 Tru High 9 style
Dana 61 for shafts, C’s, knuckles, spindles and misc other parts. $300
3rd member Tru high 9 drop out $2629 + $50 shipping
Ruff stuff Housing $675
Axle tube Seals $40
Narrowing/ welding misc assembly $600
$3894.00

call it a 6054 or 6050 or whatever you want to call it because once you stuff a 9" dana 50 R&P in there it ceases to be just a 44 even though its got dana 44 guts in there
high pinion dana 44 F250 Housing cost is $200 +/-
Dana 61 for parts $300
Narrowing and welding $500
dana 50 Ring and pinion $210
Jana 54 kit with bearings and seals $250
RD147 ARB $925 shipped
Axle tube seals $40
Diff cover (already have) $110
$2525.00



There are ways to get it lower via shopping on all of these used ctms or cheaper over stock alloy shafts.
Saving $500 to $1000 goes a long ways towards other parts and upgrades and i am by no means claiming im a genius and have the right idea doing this combo but just thought id throw some numbers up for the sake of comparison. my numbers could be missing something feel free to correct me but thought it was worth adding the info into the thread. granted the hypoid on the 9inch gives it a R&P strength advantage that should be noted and is indisputable but i think there is wiggle room and a balance to between cubic dollars spent and strength needed.
 

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Nice,

It's funny, I was just thinking about putting one of these together for my Jeepspeed. I want to enter it in the KOH Stock class, but would lose too much up-travel with the bulk of a Dana 60 center. Currently have a very well built HP44, but it is all trussed out and drags too much with the 35" tire limit for the class in the rocks. Besides, the Dana 44 u-joints and shafts will always be a time bomb in the rocks IMO.

I will probably to balljoint 60 C's with the Currie aluminum knuckles to save weight.

Looking forward to the build. I hope to do mine for next year's race.
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
i always was opposed to a 44/60 hybrid the weak link on a std dana 44 was always the pinion.........so there was never any reason to go much past a 30 spline carrier and alloy shafts... but when carl started toying around with his kits, the JK kit really caught my eye as something i could bring myself to look at later on and when i started my re-build on my jeep i was going to build a 61 front but the lure of doing something a little different got the best of me.

I should also note that a 50 suffers from the same 26 spline small dana 44 sized pinion shaft, the pinion on diesels will break at the yoke splines......but the larger ring gear and pinion head still are a worthy upgrade

pictures when i get around to it, took a little work..... pictures of the housing work and details concerning the headaches and relative easy parts to follow when i get around to pulling the open carrier and R&P back out but it all fits took about 3-4 hours with grinding to get it close. looking forward to installing the narrowed shafts and clicking some pictures of the final assembly but alot is going on with the jeep this axle probably wont get wrapped up til the new year. right now just finishing up on a whole lot of frame work. pulling the body again to finilize
 

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Definitely watching this one.. I also like the hybrid mix and match.
I helped build an axle for my buddy that's a D44/D60/Toyota hybrid
 

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I like the idea of king pins on a 44

I run 39.5 stickys on my 44 and hate the ball joints!

I havent had a shaft issue yet (open 410's)
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
and for the sake of visuals
Super dana 60 HP 4.88, vs std dana 60 HP 4.88 vs JK rear LP 4.88

Just to recap: i'll be running the jk 8.9" R&p cryo'd for the front and the HP dana 60 10" super dana 60 R&p cryo'd for the rear. the ARB's used are an RD147 front and RD35 rear.

Super 60 on the left, dana 60 on the bottom right, jk ring on top right


super 60, std 60, jk 44 all are 4.88's then there is a std D44 R&P 4.56 ratio
look closely at the dana 60 ring gear vs the jk dianeter aside the actual contact patch across the face of the gear is very close.








jk and super 60 on top
std d44 and std dana 60 on bottom
I think this really shows alot the jk over the top of the std 44 shows the additional girth of the ring gear


std dana 60 with super 60 under neith, and std dana 44 4.56 with jk 4.88 on bottom




No more R&P pictures till the install jsut since i had all of them sitting hre i figured it was good to post up


j20 housing before the knuckles got welded on. somewhere i have a picture of the knuckles welded on when i find it i'll post it

yes those are 1/2" thick 3" tubes



 

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Quirky. I like it. Just watching.
 

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To this naked eye from the picture the JK pinion looks beefier than the 60 or the super 60. What is your assesment from looking at them in person
 

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I did not know the J20 D44 tubes were so beefy.

I assume you are using the Napa outer shafts for multiple reasons, one of them being the hopes of the most easily replaceable piece being the weak link.
 
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