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Here's one of the best neutral stance views on the case I have found so far with actual facts.

https://www.aim.org/aim-column/reports-show-trump-flying-with-epstein-but-few-mention-clinton-did-too/

I would only hope that a case against Slick Willy would come to light before the 2020 election.
How does 4 or 6 Clinton trips equate to 27 flights? Are they just being cute? Does it mean Epstein was physically only on 4 or 6 flights/trips with Clinton and the rest he just let Clinton use his plane to meet him on his under age girl rape island?
 

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How does 4 or 6 Clinton trips equate to 27 flights? Are they just being cute? Does it mean Epstein was physically only on 4 or 6 flights/trips with Clinton and the rest he just let Clinton use his plane to meet him on his under age girl rape island?
Sounds like he got on the plane 27 times during the 6 trips. Multiple stops on each trip is increasing the number. A twisting of facts to make it sound worse.
 

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Sounds like he got on the plane 27 times during the 6 trips. Multiple stops on each trip is increasing the number. A twisting of facts to make it sound worse.


Or maybe multiple trips to pedo island during an extended overseas trip.
Don’t know


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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How does 4 or 6 Clinton trips equate to 27 flights? Are they just being cute? Does it mean Epstein was physically only on 4 or 6 flights/trips with Clinton and the rest he just let Clinton use his plane to meet him on his under age girl rape island?
here you go. Washington Examiner breaks it down.

Flight manifests reveal Bill Clinton traveled with Epstein six times, not the four times he admitted
by Jerry Dunleavy
| July 10, 2019 05:58 PM



Former President Bill Clinton claimed that he took four trips, accompanied by the Secret Service, on billionaire sex offender Jeffrey Epstein's "Lolita Express" private airplane, but flight manifests reveal at least six separate journeys, two of which were without Secret Service agents.

The two trips not acknowledged by Clinton were from Miami, Florida, to Westchester, New York, in early February 2002, which appears to be the first time that Clinton joined Epstein, and a trip in Asia.

One May 2002 Asian trip, without Secret Service agents, included stops in Japan, Hong Kong, China, Thailand, and Brunei. The other, in November 2003, with Secret Service agents, included stops in Norway, Siberia, Hong Kong, and China.


Another divergence from Clinton's account is that the manifests show no Secret Service agents were present for one of the former president's Africa trips with Epstein.

The discrepancies between Clinton's claims and the flight manifests draw the former president deeper into the Epstein scandal. Epstein has also been associated with Prince Andrew and President Trump, a fellow resident of Palm Beach, Florida. Trump reportedly flew with Epstein and in 2002 described him as a "terrific guy," adding: "He's a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side."

On Monday, Clinton's press secretary Angel Ureña said in a statement: “In 2002 and 2003, President Clinton took a total of four trips on Jeffrey Epstein's airplane: One to Europe, one to Asia, and two to Africa, which included stops in connection with the work of the Clinton Foundation." Supporters of the Foundation, and his Secret Service detail traveled on every leg of every trip.”


But a Washington Examiner review of flight manifest records contradicts these claims. It shows Clinton took 27 flights on Epstein’s private jet during at least six different trips.

Court documents outlining the trips and the individual flights were filed as an exhibit in a lawsuit by Bradley Edwards, an attorney for some of Epstein's accusers.

Epstein was arrested on Saturday when his plane landed in Teterboro, New Jersey, after taking off from Paris. He pleaded not guilty in federal court on Monday to charges of conspiracy and child sex trafficking.

The controversial financier struck a deal in 2008 with federal prosecutors, including Labor Secretary Alexander Acosta, that allowed him to avoid 10 years in prison on charges of sexually abusing minors as young as 14 and having some of his victims recruit other girls in exchange for serving 13 months in jail and paying restitution to victims.


The six Clinton-Epstein trips detailed within the travel logs include the Miami to Westchester trip, the two Asia trips, a trip to Europe in February 2002, and two trips to Africa in July 2002 and late September to October 2002.

Fox News, which obtained the flight records in 2016, said that despite Freedom of Information Act requests, it had not received evidence that the Secret Service was present on those flights.

On the first Asia trip, the logs show Clinton and Epstein were joined by top Clinton aide Doug Band, wealthy socialite and Epstein's onetime girlfriend Ghislaine Maxwell, former Epstein assistant Sarah Kellen, women listed only as “Janice” and “Jessica," and a few others.

According to the Miami Herald, court records show that Maxwell “has been described as using recruiters positioned throughout the world to lure women by promising them modeling assignments, educational opportunities, and fashion careers" and that “the pitch was really a ruse to groom them into sex trafficking.”

Other court documents revealed list Kellen as one of the “potential co-conspirators of Epstein” whom, along with Adriana Ross, Lesley Groff, and Nadia Marcinkova, the DOJ agreed not to prosecute as part of Epstein's 2008 “sweetheart deal.”

Monday's indictment alleges an unnamed “New York-based employee” and two unnamed assistants in Palm Beach helped schedule some of Epstein’s illicit sexual encounters, and that Epstein contacted some of the victims directly. Investigators allege Epstein conspired with others to traffic minors for sex.

Band, Maxwell, and Kellen joined many of the trips that Clinton and Epstein took around the world.

The manifests indicate there were no Secret Service agents on Clinton’s trip with Epstein to Africa in late September and early October 2002, where records show they were joined by actor Kevin Spacey and comedian Chris Tucker, doesn't list any Secret Service agents either.

Others on that trip included entertainment agent Casey Wasserman, Clinton ally and future Barack Obama National Security Council member Gayle Smith, and billionaire businessman Ron Burkle.

A woman named Chauntae Davies, Epstein's former personal masseuse, often acted as the plane's hostess and was present during Clinton's Africa trip as well. This week, she told Inside Edition that "on almost every trip that I did go on, there were young girls around."

In separate trips, supermodel Naomi Campbell also hopped on Epstein's flights with Clinton back to New York City two different times, from London and Paris.

“Jeffrey is both a highly successful financier and a committed philanthropist with a keen sense of global markets and an in-depth knowledge of twenty-first-century science,” Clinton was quoted as saying through a spokesman in 2002. “I especially appreciated his insights and generosity during the recent trip to Africa to work on democratization, empowering the poor, citizen service, and combating HIV/AIDS.”

Neither Clinton’s press secretary nor the Clinton Foundation responded to the Washington Examiner’s requests for comment.

Flight Manifest - Excerpts

1st U.S. trip — not mentioned by Clinton

Feb. 9, 2002 — MIA to HPN (Miami to Westchester) — Flight No. 57 — Bill Clinton, 4 Secret Service, 2 males, 1 female, JG, GM [Ghislaine Maxwell], SK [Sarah Kellen], AP

1st European trip — mentioned by Clinton

Feb. 19, 2002 — JFK to EGGW (NYC to London) — Flight No. 75 — Bill Clinton, Doug Band, 3 Secret Service, JG, GM [Ghislaine Maxwell], SK [Sarah Kellen]

Feb. 21, 2002 — EGGW to JFK (London to NYC) — Flight No. 76 — Bill Clinton, Doug Band, 10 Secret Service, JG, GM [Ghislaine Maxwell], SK [Sarah Kellen], Naomi Campbell, 1 male

1st Asian trip — (only one Asian trip mentioned by Clinton)

May 22, 2002 — RJTA to VHHH (Naval Air Facility Atsugi in Japan to Hong Kong International Airport) — Flight No. 100 — JG, GM [Ghislaine Maxwell], SK [Sarah Kellen], President Bill Clinton, MCKG, Doug Band, Janice, Jessica, [two or three illegible names] — No Secret Service Listed

May 23, 2002 — VHHH to ZGSZ (Hong Kong International Airport to Shenzhen Bao'an International Airport in China) — Flight No. 101 — JG, GM [Ghislaine Maxwell], SK [Sarah Kellen], President Bill Clinton, MCKG, Doug Band, Janice, Jessica, [two or three illegible names] — No Secret Service Listed

May 23, 2002 — ZGSZ to WSSS (Shenzhen Bao'an International Airport in China to Singapore Changi Airport) — Flight No. 102 — JG, GM [Ghislaine Maxwell], SK [Sarah Kellen], President Bill Clinton, MCKG, Doug Band, Janice, Jessica, [two or three illegible names] — No Secret Service Listed

May 25, 2002 — WSSS to VTBD (Singapore Changi Airport to Don Mueang International Airport in Bangkok, Thailand) — Flight No. 103 — JG, GM [Ghislaine Maxwell], SK [Sarah Kellen], President Bill Clinton, MCKG, Doug Band, Janice, Jessica, [two or three illegible names] — No Secret Service Listed

May 25, 2002 — VTBD to WBSB (Don Mueang International Airport in Bangkok, Thailand to Brunei International Airport) — Flight No. 104 — JG, GM [Ghislaine Maxwell], SK [Sarah Kellen], President Bill Clinton, MCKG, Doug Band, Janice, Jessica, [two or three illegible names] — No Secret Service Listed

1st African trip — mentioned by Clinton

July 13, 2002 — GMME to LPAZ (Rabat–Salé Airport in Morocco to Santa Maria Airport in the Azores) — Flight No. 122 — JE, GM [Ghislaine Maxwell], SK [Sarah Kellen], AP, CL, President Clinton, Doug Band, Mike, 8 Secret Service

July 13, 2002 — LPAZ to JFK (Santa Maria Airport in the Azores to NYC) — Flight No. 123 — JE, GM [Ghislaine Maxwell], SK [Sarah Kellen], AP, CL, President Bill Clinton, Doug Band, Mike, 8 Secret Service

2nd African trip — mentioned by Clinton

Sept. 21, 2002 — JFK to LPAZ (NYC to Santa Maria Airport in the Azores) — Flight No. 136 — President William J. Clinton, Kevin Spacey, Chris Tucker, JG, GM [Ghislaine Maxwell], [one or two illegible names], SK [Sarah Kellen], CL, Chauntae Davies, Andrea Metrovich, Doug Band, David Slang, Jim Kennery, Eric Nouncs, Rodney Slater, Casey and Laura Wasserman, Ron Burkle, Gayle Smith — No Secret Service Listed

Sept. 22, 2002 — LPAZ to DGAA (Santa Maria Airport in the Azores to Kotoka International Airport in Ghana) — President William J. Clinton, Kevin Spacey, Chris Tucker, JG, GM [Ghislaine Maxwell], [one or two illegible names], SK [Sarah Kellen], CL, Chauntae Davies, Andrea Metrovich, Doug Band, David Slang, Jim Kennery, Eric Nouncs, Rodney Slater, Casey and Laura Wasserman, Ron Burkle, Gayle Smith — No Secret Service Listed

Sept. 23, 2002 — DGAA to DNAA (Kotoka International Airport in Ghana to Nnamdi Azikiwe International Airport in Nigeria) — President William J. Clinton, Kevin Spacey, Chris Tucker, JG, GM [Ghislaine Maxwell], [one or two illegible names], SK [Sarah Kellen], CL, Chauntae Davies, Andrea Metrovich, Doug Band, David Slang, Jim Kennery, Eric Nouncs, Rodney Slater, Casey and Laura Wasserman, Ron Burkle, Gayle Smith — No Secret Service Listed

Sept. 24, 2002 — DNAA to HRYR (Nnamdi Azikiwe International Airport in Nigeria to Kigali International Airport in Rwanda) — Same as above less Ron Burkle — No Secret Service Listed

Sept. 25, 2002 — HRYR to FQMA (Kigali International Airport in Rwanda to Maputo International Airport in Mozambique) — Same as above plus Ira Magaziner — No Secret Service Listed

Sept. 26, 2002 — FQMA to FACT (Maputo International Airport in Mozambique to Cape Town International Airport) — Same as above — No Secret Service Listed

Sept. 27, 2002 — FACT to FAJS (Cape Town International Airport to O. R. Tambo International Airport in South Africa) — Same as above less JG, GM [Ghislaine Maxwell], SK [Sarah Kellen], CL, Chauntae Davies, Andrea Metrovich — No Secret Service Listed

Sept. 28, 2002 — FAJS to FACT (O. R. Tambo International Airport in South Africa to Cape Town International Airport) — Same as above less Gayle Smith, Ira Magaziner — No Secret Service Listed

Sept. 29, 2002 — FACT to DGAA (Cape Town International Airport to Kotoka International Airport in Ghana) — Same as above add JG, GM [Ghislaine Maxwell], JK, CL, CD, AM — No Secret Service Listed

Sept. 29, 2002 — DGAA to LFPB (Kotoka International Airport in Ghana to Paris Airport-Le Bourget) — Same as above — No Secret Service Listed

Sept. 29, 2002 — LFPB to EGGW (Paris Airport-Le Bourget to London Luton Airport) — Same as above less JG, SK [Sarah Kellen], CD, Laura and Casey Wasserman — No Secret Service Listed

October 1, 2002 — EGGW to LFPB (London Luton Airport to Paris Le Bourget) — GM [Ghislaine Maxwell], Nick and Edwina Simmons — No Secret Service Listed

Oct. 2, 2002 — LFPB to JFK (Paris Le Bourget to NYC) — JG, GM [Ghislaine Maxwell], SK [Sarah Kellen], CL, Andrea Metrovich, Naomi Campbell — No Secret Service Listed

2nd Asian trip — (only one Asian trip mentioned by Clinton)

Nov.5, 2003 — ENGM to UNNT (Oslo Airport in Norway to Novosibirsk Tolmachevo Airport in Siberia) — Flight No. 228 — JG, AM, GM [Ghislaine Maxwell], SK [Sarah Kellen], Doug Band, 4 Secret Service, President Bill Clinton

Nov. 6, 2003 — UNNT to VHHH (Novosibirsk Tolmachevo Airport in Siberia to Hong Kong International Airport) — Flight No. 229 — JG, AM, GM [Ghislaine Maxwell], SK [Sarah Kellen], Doug Band, 4 Secret Service, President Bill Clinton

Nov. 9, 2003 — VHHH to ZUUU (Hong Kong International Airport to Chengdu Shuangliu International Airport in China) — Flight No. 230 — JG, AM, GM [Ghislaine Maxwell], SK [Sarah Kellen], Doug Band, IRA Magaziner (?), 4 Secret Service, President Bill Clinton

Nov. 9, 2003 — ZUUU to ZBAA (Chengdu Shuangliu International Airport in China to Beijing Capital International Airport) — Flight No. 231 — JG, AM, GM [Ghislaine Maxwell], SK [Sarah Kellen], Doug Band, [three, four, or five illegible names], President Bill Clinton
 

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Lots of creeps in government, Clinton etc... but... here is the thing... if the Clinton's have so much power and influence... how did they not fix the election? are we really thinking we got lucky? or how did Trump not get caught or killed? It just defies any reason if the first part is true...

Epstein was involved with folks on all aspects of the political spectrum and was a shitbird. I do not care that he is dead but, I hate that he did so much evil.
 

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Lots of creeps in government, Clinton etc... but... here is the thing... if the Clinton's have so much power and influence... how did they not fix the election? are we really thinking we got lucky? or how did Trump not get caught or killed? It just defies any reason if the first part is true...

Epstein was involved with folks on all aspects of the political spectrum and was a shitbird. I do not care that he is dead but, I hate that he did so much evil.
Trump/Russian collusion > Clinton/Russion collusion
 

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Trump/Russian collusion > Clinton/Russion collusion
yeah, I think they BOTH did stuff that was wildly wrong and illegal. But, if Hills and Bills are such badasses, why couldn't they just kill Trump... nobody would have cared during the primaries... it just doesn't make sense.
 

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yeah, I think they BOTH did stuff that was wildly wrong and illegal. But, if Hills and Bills are such badasses, why couldn't they just kill Trump... nobody would have cared during the primaries... it just doesn't make sense.
who said they were badasses that could get to someone as high profile as Trump?


This isnt 1963 anymore. There are electronic trails everywhere and, as Hilary proved, they are sufficiently inept at using/hiding behind them.


Rigging the election in multiple states in 2016 would take an organizational undertaking that could not be clandestine for long.


Look at the failed FBI coup. There were only a dozen or so players and all their shit is coming out now. Bruce Ohr did what i thought he would do and cover his own ass and the newly released 302 docs show he told the FBI that Steele was lying garbage but they kept on with it. its all coming out.

i do think with a couple hundred million in a slush fund also known as the Clinton Foundation and the CGI, you could do a lot with some up-close-and-personal, small operations type stuff.

I definitely am not saying the clintons have anything to do with Epstien's death, im just saying many people have been killed for much less. Bill Clinton , in particular, would definitely have the motive and money to do so.
 

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who said they were badasses that could get to someone as high profile as Trump?


This isnt 1963 anymore. There are electronic trails everywhere and, as Hilary proved, they are sufficiently inept at using/hiding behind them.


Rigging the election in multiple states in 2016 would take an organizational undertaking that could not be clandestine for long.


Look at the failed FBI coup. There were only a dozen or so players and all their shit is coming out now. Bruce Ohr did what i thought he would do and cover his own ass and the newly released 302 docs show he told the FBI that Steele was lying garbage but they kept on with it. its all coming out.

i do think with a couple hundred million in a slush fund also known as the Clinton Foundation and the CGI, you could do a lot with some up-close-and-personal, small operations type stuff.

I definitely am not saying the clintons have anything to do with Epstien's death, im just saying many people have been killed for much less. Bill Clinton , in particular, would definitely have the motive and money to do so.
agree... but, I'd add there are folks like President Trump who are AT LEAST as powerful as Billy Boy and likely with similar interests....

I'd bet that former President and current President both boned the daylights out of women provided by Epstein.
 

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While nothing would make me happier than seeing the Clintons go down for his death, I think the real reason he's dead is much simpler.

Epstein took himself out.

His life was already over, he knew he was guilty. Waiting to be violently killed is also a pretty good reason to do it on your own terms.
 

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While nothing would make me happier than seeing the Clintons go down for his death, I think the real reason he's dead is much simpler.

Epstein took himself out.

His life was already over, he knew he was guilty. Waiting to be violently killed is also a pretty good reason to do it on your own terms.
Odd....it now seems the security tapes, are missing. Imagine that.
 

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While nothing would make me happier than seeing the Clintons go down for his death, I think the real reason he's dead is much simpler.

Epstein took himself out.

His life was already over, he knew he was guilty. Waiting to be violently killed is also a pretty good reason to do it on your own terms.

He should be able to take himself out, was just hoping it was after he was convicted. Now he gets to keep the "alleged" by his name and he doesn't have to incriminate anyone else.

Ideally, he'd check out somewhere between conviction and sentencing phase of his trial.
 

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Odd....it now seems the security tapes, are missing. Imagine that.
Damn. The shitty prison system isn't really helping to assuage the fears that there is some big conspiracy, is it?

I'm going to go with poorly managed still. How does the saying go?

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
 

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When in Rome, do as the Romans do :confused:



Yep... When the going gets tough, the tough get going :homer:



Better remind her of the Golden Rule of treating others the way you would like to be treated. Also, with your imagination on virtues.... You can improve anything :rolleyes:
I'm pretty sure he's threatening you and/or your wife...:evil:
 

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Damn. The shitty prison system isn't really helping to assuage the fears that there is some big conspiracy, is it?

I'm going to go with poorly managed still. How does the saying go?
Someday you're going to remove those rose colored glasses and realize, you were told the ugly truth all along.
 

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yeah, I think they BOTH did stuff that was wildly wrong and illegal. But, if Hills and Bills are such badasses, why couldn't they just kill Trump... nobody would have cared during the primaries... it just doesn't make sense.
I actually saw Trump a long time ago at his casino in Atlantic City. He walked through the casino with some blond on his arm. There were at least eight guys in suits that shadowed him. On one of those guys, I saw a gun. I believe It was an uzi. I think he was one of the best protected civilians in the world.

Of course, anyone can be killed, but some, not so easy.
Also, untill he won the primary, they thought he was a joke. Even after, they thought she would win easily.
 
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