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Discussion Starter #1
I find it interesting to compare the styles of respondents to the land use issues on the pro-environmental sites with postings on the sites promoting motorized recreactional use on public lands. Congressional staffers do indeed moniter these sites and some of the crude responses don't do the motorized community any favors. Trying to pull all the different motorized users together for a common cause is like herding cats....One of the biggest problems in dealing with enviros is matching their legal resources. I have considering filing a suit against one such group over the abuse of their 501(c)3. While I have some personal resources, I can't match pro bono green lawyers that have no other objective but to hang up a court action and bleed the planiff through excessive fees. Letters to the editors, USFS, BLM, etc. are worthless. A couple of well financed lawsuits against enviro groups designed to use up their resources and turn their attention away from restricting motorized access is a good start.

I spent an hour looking at green sites and never found a single reference to a "fawking" motorhead!
 

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That's because they're a bunch of pussies. :p

BTW, there are those of us that have been dealing with this crap for many years, and being polite and politically correct hasn't gotten us anywhere.

Its what you say in your official responses to issues that really counts, IMO.
 

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It's my opinion that lawsuits are NOT the way to handle Land Use issues.

Land Use Battles = Legislative battles

Once you figure that out, you discover that there are lots of ways to make real, significant change, with almost all of it being outside of the courtroom. If you’re fighting the land use battle in a courtroom, it's probably too late to save that particular part of land.

Letters to the editor probably ARE useless (or at the very least, no more useful than any other method of media maneuvering). But that's not the LETTER's fault. In fact, a letter can be one of the most POWERFUL tools an advocate can use. But it must be written the correct way and sent to the correct people (not the media).

Every American is represented at the federal level of the Legislative branch by three people: a House Rep and two senators. If you write letters to THEM, letters that can create an emotional connection, or can explain the wishes of a group of single-issue voters in their district, then letters CAN and DO work. But they've got to go beyond--WAY BEYOND--the normal cut-and-paste form letter that we're all so used to sending. All those do is get tallied; nothing significant happens with them. But a good letter can make a Rep or Senator RECOGNIZE and CARE about the problems of their constituents.

Of course, any letter you send to ANY legislator who doesn't directly represent you is just garbage. Legally, they don't have to listen to you, so they don't...you just get chunked out with the rest of the trash (it's sad, but very, very true). So only communicate with your own three direct legislative branch reps. The key is that we've got to get people all over the country, in EVERY district, to make the same effort at the same time. That will make the maximum legislative impact.

Phone calls also work, but only as a group effort (since you'll never get your actual legislator on the line) because a ton of phone calls FREAKS out a legislator's office!

"Adopting" a legislator is also an effective way to gain support. If you can form a personal one-on-one relationship with your legislator, and make them realize what we're all about (possibly by taking them on a backcountry trail ride?) then you'll have a MUCH more sympathetic ear when it comes time to address your issues.

Form letter emails are garbage, as are online petitions--legislators KNOW that it only takes you a couple of seconds to sign one of those, and they assume that if you don't have enough interest to write your own letter or do something besides sign your name on the dotted line, you probably don't care enough (or aren't informed enough) to really make it an issue when you VOTE, either.

Remember, 99% of your power as a constituent lies in the fact that you VOTE, and the legislators want to make you happy so that you'll vote for them.

It's all GRASSROOTS, but it WORKS. It's really one of THREE things that really work in politics in this country:

1. Grassroots (indirect lobbying)
2. Lobbying (suggesting positions & legislation)
3. PAC (cash for election bids)

Once you understand the system, you understand how you can USE the system to your advantage. And you can gather support among your peers to do even MORE.

(also, remember that the Forest Service and the BLM are controlled by Congress...so you can even affect them with legislative changes!)


One final thought: remember that the judicial system is just a crapshoot, and the outcome is about as predictable as Vegas odds. In essence, it's GAMBLING, and it's not something you're gonna get many people to participate in. I for one don't have enough money to just flush it down the toilet, not when I can use those same dollars to a greater end via legislative changes.

- Sheep






P.S. - If you read my daily land use blog, you'll discover that I too use a lot of "crude responses". But the difference between ME and the greenies you speak of is that I'm not an ORGANIZED NON-PROFIT CORPORATION, I'm just a Joe Average citizen. If you go check out the organized non-profit 4x4 OHV corporations like UFWDA and BlueRibbon, you'll find they don't use the "crude responses" we do. You've got to compare apples-to-apples, and comparing us to an organized non-profit corporation isn't a legitamate comparison.

:)
 

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Electric Sheep said:
P.S. - If you read my daily land use blog, you'll discover that I too use a lot of "crude responses". But the difference between ME and the greenies you speak of is that I'm not an ORGANIZED NON-PROFIT CORPORATION, I'm just a Joe Average citizen. If you go check out the organized non-profit 4x4 OHV corporations like UFWDA and BlueRibbon, you'll find they don't use the "crude responses" we do. You've got to compare apples-to-apples, and comparing us to an organized non-profit corporation isn't a legitamate comparison.

:)

:laughing: You want crude responses read bradblog, my place to rant about ...whatevah. :flipoff2:
 

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I do read your bradblog. Hell, I've got it linked on my blog. :smokin:

The difference between our blogs is that I can still actually type the name "John Kerry", whereas you seem incapable of even typing it. LOL! You know, kinda like Hillary always called Bill "Big Creep" in her diary because she couldn't stand to write out his name (since she hated him so much).

Wait, did I just say you were like Hillary? Oh, sorry, my bad. I wan't trying to say anything BAD, just using her as an example.

LOL! :evil:
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I do not advocate lawsuits on land use issues...I do advocate suits AGAINST enviro groups over abuses involving their IRS non-profit status. I'm on a first name basis with my senator and congressman as well as state representatives. When push comes to shove, elected offcials are always looking at the vote count.

The passion and presentation of the positions taken by the greenies translates into a respectable voter block in the eyes of a politician. I have served two terms on the national board of directors of a non-profit organization promoting responsible off road usage. Similar groups stake out their turf and there's little cooperation. On the other hand, enviros coordinate and help each other with money and man power.

My post points out that we still have a long way to go in solidifying our efforts to combat land closures and restrictions.
 

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Well that's very cool. I'm glad to know that you're doing good work already (heck, it's considerably more than almost everyone else in the 4x4 world, including me). Of course, neither I nor anyone else here had any idea of your background, so I hope you don't take offense to our questioning you viewpoint.

:)

I agree that a lawsuit against an Eco group for abusing their 501(c)(3) would be valid--for example, an Eco group actively lobbying with >20% of it's overall efforts, etc.

I also agree that we, as an entire industry, do not cooperate particularly well, even within our own kind. Unfortunately, most OHV groups are very insular. I'm not sure WHY, but no one wants to play with the kids nextdoor. Most OHV organizations tend to stick to playing in their own sandbox, and while they don't TRY to keep other kids out of their sandbox, they usually don't go around just willy-nilly INVITING kids from all over the neighborhood to come over and play.

I also agree that sometimes we may not necessarily be responding in the most, uh, "professional" way, and that many politicians and land managers see/read/hear our thoughts. But so what? If I'm pissed off about a land closure, I'm probably gonna say something like, "fuck those fucking GREENIE fucks that got this land closed!"

Is that "crude"? Yeah, I'd say so. But it's also my genuine EMOTION--and it's my right as an American citizen to express that emotion about my American land and my American government.

So if you think my style "crass and unfair", well.... :flipoff2:


There's a time and a place for everything. Sometimes it's appropriate to band together to fight for a common good. Sometimes it's appropriate to band together to fight against a common enemy. Sometimes it's appropriate to put on a suit and tie and go talk to your elected officials in a professional manner. And sometimes, it's appropriate to just stand up and say, "fuck those fucking GREENIE fucks that got this land closed!"

:)
 
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