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flamethrower
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)

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If anyone remembers the Santiago canyon trail it was closed for the same reason from what I have heard. (I was too young to care about details of that closure at that time)
 

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flamethrower
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Discussion Starter #3
This is the article that brought it to my attention:

Nowhere to Roam Tahoe National Forest Restricted Protected Area ~ eTerritorial Dispatch

Nowhere to Roam - Tahoe National Forest Restricted Protected Area

(Fish and Wildlife Service Proposal)


Environmental groups and forest service connected agencies keep crying wolf, with over 1000 “endangered” species while more is to be added to their endless list. As for Tahoe National Forest, now the yellow-legged frog family is so important that a public land grab, 2 million acre-takings agenda lies down the road which I have paraphrased here;

“We, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, propose to designate critical habitat for the Sierra Nevada yellow-legged frog...and the Yosemite toad under the Endangered Species Act of 1973 presently projected to affect Nevada County and 16 other California counties.” Respond ASAP with your comment by June 24, 2013 - 916-414-6600. The greatest concern with the frog, apparently is predation by non-native trout in mountain waterways, drifting pesticides, disease, and climate change. However, scientists neglected to mention the massive “let it burn” fires in the habitat destruction assessment which allows millions of acres to burn every year. Was this an oversight?

If this “bio region”, goes into effect, kiss old Tahoe National Forest goodbye and the rest of the Sierra’s as our forest service agencies will continue to use wildfire and “endangered species” to push their bogus agendas and also us out of the Sierras into major cities for the sole purpose of control.

Wasn’t there already enough damage done when the road closures began in the 1990’s when logging was brought to a near standstill and whole rural economies were devastated and brought to dire poverty throughout the Sierra’s. Just start counting the thousands of trailers and run down mobile homes. So this what the hard working public gets for paying their taxes for roughly 45 years of their life but now they will have nowhere to roam?

If this proposal passes we can eventually expect more forest service road closures and a lot less recreation if any. So far, the forestry agencies are careful not to reveal what new restrictions will be in effect if their massive, Marxist, endangered species proposal is implemented. No transparency here, but on the horizon, less access will surely follow while there could very well be an end to the following; logging, mining, hiking trails, fishing, horseback riding, camping, swimming, hunting, trail bike paths, firewood cutting, normal travel by vehicles, and regular access with off-road vehicles
such as ATV’s or dirt bikes.

I would like to remind us all that the forests which are in question are public lands that were set aside for the people’s enjoyment and not a family of frogs, owls, and wolves. Teddy Roosevelt who was instrumental in bringing us our first National Park was a hunter. Is there anyone out there that is ready to chisel him off of Mount Rushmore because he might have enjoyed hunting for Elk in the Rocky Mountains? When it’s all said and done, will a person even be able to pan for gold along the Yuba River?

The charade of the environmental protection saddled with enviro lawsuits and forestry regulations are being used against a people that are already oppressed with rock bottom wages, unemployment, foreclosures, and inflation. Only a sadistic mindset would want to limit or prevent the public from the enjoyment of their forests which, in all actuality, belongs to them anyway, We as a people cannot afford to give the government one more inch of land which was originally meant for the public good and their welfare, and we certainly don’t need those rights taken away that are already Inalienable God-given rights to begin with, which by the way, was the rock of freedom that this nation was founded upon. Shall we now offer these rights back to the “keepers of the forest” who are saying
that they no longer have enough money to fight every last forest fire in 2013, while the state of California charges Sierra Nevada homeowners an extra tax that will go into Cal Fire’s coffers for what, their retirement? Where is the outrage?

FEDERAL REGISTER - Fish and Wildlife Service 50 CFR Part 17
Vol. 78 - No. 80 - April 25, 2013 - Part III Dept. of the Interior
 

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"All Weeee Drive!"
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Oh, look it all spurred from our friends @ CBD....

Mountain yellow-legged frog


Ironic that they blame California Department of Fish and Game:

" Both populations are adapted to high-elevation habitats without aquatic predators. So it’s not surprising that the main reason for the frog’s decline is the California Department of Fish and Game’s introduction of nonnative trout to alpine lakes. These stocked fish prey upon tadpoles and juvenile frogs, and scientists predict that the yellow-legged frog could be extinct within decades. "​

What does CBD mean by "adapted to high-elevation habitats"? Does that mean that the frogs are non-native as well?


While Wiki describes the population decline to be caused by
"Its decline is attributed to many other factors, including pesticide use, livestock grazing, drought, ultraviolet-B radiation,[4] and chytrid fungus.[5]""​

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_yellow-legged_frog
 

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Looks like the frog is everywhere - how can it be endangered?
 

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Looks like the habitat surrounds a major portion of Hwy 80 as well as thousands of residences and surface roads. I suppose they will shut down, re-route the highway and relocate all the people too?
 

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I also found this:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...fT1iGnCJ7TRy-QQ&bvm=bv.46865395,d.cGE&cad=rja


"1.3. Threats
Threats to the continued survival of MYLF are discussed in detail in Section 5. Factors Affecting Ability to Survive and Reproduce. MYLF are extirpated from most of their historic range due primarily to disease and introductions of non-native trout. Several other factors that may affect the ability of MYLF to survive are discussed in this Status Review, including airborne
contaminants, wildland fires, fire suppression activities, climate change, livestock grazing, water developments, and recreational activities. Although these factors may have localized impacts on MYLF, they are not considered to be the primary stressors that have caused the observed range-wide declines."​

and:

Forestry Activities – Land management practices on national forests such as timber harvest,
road construction and fire suppression may have impacts on MYLF, however, there are no
studies available investigating the potential impacts of forestry activities. MYLF occur primarily
in roadless areas with little or no timber harvest or fire suppression activities, therefore forestry
activities are not considered to be the primary stressors that have caused the observed rangewide
declines.​


This looks good as well:

Off-highway vehicle (OHV) use is implicated as an impact to many amphibian species.
However, MYLF do not typically occur in areas with OHV access or in designated OHV
recreation areas. Potential overlap of MYLF and OHV use is most likely in the northern Sierra
Nevada. Regardless, OHV use is not considered to be an impact that has contributed to the
decline of MYLF.​
 

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What does CBD mean by "adapted to high-elevation habitats"? Does that mean that the frogs are non-native as well?

As I understand it from prior reading this statement is made to cover "Potential Habitats". Meaning, while the frog may not be in a certain area now it is fully capable of adapting to it. Read.....they will close areas even if the frog is not seen there just incase it wants to move there in the future.

Well hell, I might wanna move to the moon. Maybe Karen can get up there and make me some of that, there atmosphere:).

I do find it interesting that if we look closely at the map. It would appear that areas that already have huge government controls, i.e, Federally controlled camp grounds, Tahoe, etc etc, don't seem to be liked by the Froggies as they are not marked in yellow. Or could it be that these areas are already controlled to the point of closure and are not on the "Hit List".

Tim.
 

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flamethrower
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Discussion Starter #12
I also found this:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...fT1iGnCJ7TRy-QQ&bvm=bv.46865395,d.cGE&cad=rja


"1.3. Threats
Threats to the continued survival of MYLF are discussed in detail in Section 5. Factors Affecting Ability to Survive and Reproduce. MYLF are extirpated from most of their historic range due primarily to disease and introductions of non-native trout. Several other factors that may affect the ability of MYLF to survive are discussed in this Status Review, including airborne contaminants, wildland fires, fire suppression activities, climate change, livestock grazing, water developments, and recreational activities. Although these factors may have localized impacts on MYLF, they are not considered to be the primary stressors that have caused the observed range-wide declines."​

and:

Forestry Activities – Land management practices on national forests such as timber harvest,
road construction and fire suppression may have impacts on MYLF, however, there are no
studies available investigating the potential impacts of forestry activities. MYLF occur primarily
in roadless areas with little or no timber harvest or fire suppression activities, therefore forestry
activities are not considered to be the primary stressors that have caused the observed rangewide
declines.​


This looks good as well:

Off-highway vehicle (OHV) use is implicated as an impact to many amphibian species.

However, MYLF do not typically occur in areas with OHV access or in designated OHV recreation areas. Potential overlap of MYLF and OHV use is most likely in the northern Sierra Nevada. Regardless, OHV use is not considered to be an impact that has contributed to the decline of MYLF.​
Does not typically occur? What will happen if it does?

OHV not an impact contributing to the decline? But it may impact the recovery? RIGHT?

Find it on either of those trails and it will be shut down immediately. Don't kid yourselves, they left the hole wide open. We need to comment and do it now. We need our Land Use leaders involved now if they already aren't.

This is obviously written expressly to speak to forest users. "Oh don't worry, it won't impact you OHV, Fire Suppression or Timber people". BS, we may not have caused the decline, by we will certainly, at some point, have an impact on the recovery.

See - the FWS does the listing, and then the FS/BLM does the hacking....

Did the Spotted Owl have impacts on our access? Did the Desert Tortoise have impacts on our access? Did the Elderberry Beetle have impacts on our access? Will Sage Grouse protections impact our access?
 

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Global warming is killing the frogs :laughing:
The Mountain Yellow-legged Frog Site

I don't believe this will be an issue for OHV. No data and no evidence pointing directly to OHV. But hey we have seen it before... Species come and go, this one has been around for millions of years. This may be its time to go due to the NATURAL fluctuations in earth's temps.

Point is if they want to save these frogs they are going to have to put up shade structures in the mountains.

Not feasible but we will see where this goes :shaking:
 

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flamethrower
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Discussion Starter #14
Well then maybe that's why we have heard nothing about it from our LU Leadership. There is no concern...

I could be doing a Kurt style Chicken Little thing, but it seems to be important enough that CABPRO is hosting a 14 County meeting about it on June 1st in Auburn.


Auburn20130601
Urgent Meeting of California Citizens

To Discuss The Future of California's Counties


The future of California's counties is being forged right now, largely by a handful of non-resident "stakeholders" and regional non-governments that seek radical changes to our individual and property rights. If their vision is realized, millions of acres of natural resources will be closed off; incomes and property values will plummet; businesses will decline or even close; and county governments will be forced to sharply curtail services or go bankrupt. The People no longer matter, or at least that is what they think. We intend to show them otherwise.

Impacted Human Activities Agriculture, logging, mining, water diversions, fire management, dams and hydropower, travel, off-road vehicles, packstock use, recreation, and more.

14 Impacted Counties Alpine, Amador, El Dorado, Fresno, Inyo, Madera, Mariposa, Mono, Nevada, Placer, Plumas, Sierra, Tulare, and Tuolumne.

9 Impacted Forests Eldorado National Forest, Humboldt-Toiyabe National Forest, Inyo National Forest, Lake Tahoe Basis Management Unit, Plumas National Forest, Sequoia National Forest, Sierra National Forest, Stanislaus National Forest, and the Tahoe National Forest.

Topics & Speakers

o Endangered Species Listings - Craig Lindsay, Western Mining Association

o Forest Restoration - Steve Brink, California Forestry Association

o Jurisdiction - Ron Gibson, Jefferson Mining District

o Accountability - Chuck Shea, CABPRO

o Legal Recourse - Jerry Hobbs, Public Lands For The People

o The Next Economy - Kirk MacKenzie, Defend Rural America

Who should attend

o City and county representatives and sheriffs

o Concerned residents

o Property owners

o Community leaders

o Dairymen, farmers, ranchers, loggers, miners

o Hikers, campers, sports fishermen, off-roaders

o Asssociation and organizational leaders

FREE. $10 per person donation encouraged. Registration required.


For more information contact Kirk MacKenzie

[email protected] or 650-967-5679.
Here is a link to a flyer for distribution:

http://www.defendruralamerica.com/files/DRA20130601AuburnFlyer.pdf
 

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Well then maybe that's why we have heard nothing about it from our LU Leadership. There is no concern...

I could be doing a Kurt style Chicken Little thing, but it seems to be important enough that CABPRO is hosting a 14 County meeting about it on June 1st in Auburn.
I know that several of the county supervisors are very concerned. The meeting on the 1st is just 1. they are going to try to have 4-5 of the, one in every other or every third county that could be effected
 

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I wonder if the dept. of Fish and Wildlife has the authority to declare an area critical habitat? Do they have the authority to close the critical habitat closed to all use?
 

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I could be doing a Kurt style Chicken Little thing,
:flipoff2::flipoff2::flipoff2::flipoff2:

I am just "over-protective" of our trails and access. Can you blame me? :homer:


Seriously tho... It's worth looking into right now. Esp. if this is coming from the CBD.
 

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flamethrower
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Discussion Starter #19
I wonder if the dept. of Fish and Wildlife has the authority to declare an area critical habitat? Do they have the authority to close the critical habitat closed to all use?
Yep and Yep (at least seasonally).

And, sorry if I hurt your feelers Kurt, but I didn't apologize for going all "Chicken Little"...cuz I absolutely hate being blind sided by crap we can get in front of. (But thanks for giving it your Blessing :flipoff2:)

I suffer from LU PTSD Greenhorn BLM Syndrome.

Not a single LU person in the whole world made a single comment in 9 counties of BLM land (2007 Folsom Field Office RMP), and now we literally have .25 mile left of OHV routes left in 9 COUNTIES.:mad3:

IT AIN'T GOING TO HAPPEN AGAIN UNDER MY WATCH :mad3:
 
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