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let's here it.....what are the advantages/disadvantages with the both of them as far as strength, durability, part cost/installation, longetivity, and total cost of swap equiped with lockers and larger R&P's.
thanks dude's
-justin...aka Fuzzy :beer: :beer: :beer:
 

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if ya like the birfields in your sami, you will love toy axles!!
(but luckily you probably won't be able to break the toy ones)
 

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do a search. this has been debated several times. i personally like wagoneer d44's. the ujoints in the frontend are stronger, they are wider for better stability, and the rear diff is offset to match the sami's x-case. grind the lip off the bottom of the diff housing and i be clearance will be pretty close betweent he two. swap to wrangelr springs at the same time and the cost will be no more than doing a toy swap (that is if gears are replaced in both toy and d44's). save some $$$ and wled the rear and put an lunchbox locker in the front (i usually don't recomend drop in lockers but i doubt the light weight sami will hurt them). anyway like i sai do a search. lots of info. :smokin:
 

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Toy advantages:

1. Kingpin front axles... no worries about blown balljoints if you drop off a ledge really hard or catch some air.

2. Rebuild the entire thing for $97 from Randy's R&P

3. If you run 4.10s (trail only rig, probably) you carry a spare, locked third member (welded diff from boneyard) in your toolbox.

4. Front & Rear 3rds are interchangeable. (Blow a rear R&P, you can drop a

5. More ground clearance

6. Lighter

7. Cheaper (Usually)

8. Brakes practically bolt in

That's all I've got for now. The axleshafts (D44 and Toy) are identical... so those are a wash. Really, the only reason NOT to use the Toy's are the Birfs... and it looks like Long's Birfield (beefed and heat & cryo'd) might actaully be standing up to hard use. I'm not convinced, but it seems like someone might have fiannly gotten them right.
 

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Yota_San said:
Toy advantages:

1. Kingpin front axles... no worries about blown balljoints if you drop off a ledge really hard or catch some air.

2. Rebuild the entire thing for $97 from Randy's R&P

3. If you run 4.10s (trail only rig, probably) you carry a spare, locked third member (welded diff from boneyard) in your toolbox.

4. Front & Rear 3rds are interchangeable. (Blow a rear R&P, you can drop a

5. More ground clearance

6. Lighter

7. Cheaper (Usually)

8. Brakes practically bolt in

That's all I've got for now. The axleshafts (D44 and Toy) are identical... so those are a wash. Really, the only reason NOT to use the Toy's are the Birfs... and it looks like Long's Birfield (beefed and heat & cryo'd) might actaully be standing up to hard use. I'm not convinced, but it seems like someone might have fiannly gotten them right.

1. ???? :rolleyes:

2. i imagine about the same for a 44. the only thing that will cost more maybe would be the replacing the u-joints.

3. 4.10's??? with a sami motor????

4. blow a r&p with a sami motor???? i doubt it with either the d44 or the toy would blow a r&p with the sami motor.

5. i want a centerline to bottom of the pig measurement from both the toy and the 44. take a grinder to the bottom opf the lip of the 44. easy as that.

6.lighter...true but axles are unsprung weight wich isn't as much of a factor. plus i like the little bit of added unspring weight. it helps keep the wheels on the ground.

7. cheaper. not really. about the same. waggy axles can be had pretty cheap as can the toys. if the units are bought at equal price then the parts used to build are pretty much the same (i.e. gears, lockers, etc.

8. brakes practacly bolt in for the waggy axles too. i don't see where people come off with saying this all the time. if you havn't done it. or don't know then don't spread a bunch of bs. :D

as for the long's birfs well yes they may be a good option but we are talking stock here. if you wanna co that route lets slap a set of warn axle shafts in the d44 along weith a set of ctm's:flipoff2:

ok as i have stated on many occations on this bbs i am not a toy 8" hater. yes they are a great swap for sami's. the reason i speak up is for a difference of opinion. alot of the crap going around about swapping mastercylinders, problems with brakes, 44's cost more, etc. is all bs. people like to speak up alot of times when they havn't done it. ok yes if 4.10's are low enough for you then the toys will be definatly cheaper and the way to go but who want's 4.10's???

as i have said i helped build a sami with waggy axles and i have a buddy i wheel with who also runs the waggys. they flat out work. both run 97" wheelbase and wrangler springs. i know the toys work too but the width of the d44's, strength of the front, and the offset rear make the waggy d44's a better choice in my op. :D
 

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Uhh....44s! That is if they are the same initial price, IE if a set of toy axles fall from the sky, go for them! Although I am not crazy about compound rear driveshaft angles. Any way, go 44s and never worry again!
 

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When I end up swapping my axles out (in about a year or more) I will probably end up going with Toyota axles. This is simply because I know some guys running Toys that I can get them from cheaper than I could get D44's.

I think it all comes down to what you have access to. In some locations you can get D44's dirt cheap, in others they want a fortune for them. Same goes for the Toy stuff.

Typically more Toyota stuff comes available because the Toy guys are moving up to 60's (Mossberg is going to 70's front/rear :eek: ). When they move up in size, we just take their leftovers just like with everything else.
 

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M.Martian said:
When I end up swapping my axles out (in about a year or more) I will probably end up going with Toyota axles. This is simply because I know some guys running Toys that I can get them from cheaper than I could get D44's.

I think it all comes down to what you have access to. In some locations you can get D44's dirt cheap, in others they want a fortune for them. Same goes for the Toy stuff.

Typically more Toyota stuff comes available because the Toy guys are moving up to 60's (Mossberg is going to 70's front/rear :eek: ). When they move up in size, we just take their leftovers just like with everything else.
i do agree. if you get either for super cheap then go with them. either is a huge improvement over stock.


also i wanted to say even though i list the width of waggy 44's as one of the reasons i would choose them, that same reason might be a reason for someone else to not choose them. if your zuk is a daily driver and you need to keep your tires in the fender wells because of your local laws then the 44's are not for you.
 

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ok i have decided to give advantages/disadvantages of each as i see it. i will not include price because they are both about the same.

toy pro:

1. metric

2. you don't have to outboard your front springs

3. width (if you are trying to keep your tires under the fenders)

4. easier to set up r&p

5. lighter (if you think unsprung weight makes much difference)

6. if 4.10's are low enough, they come stock.

cons:

1. centered rear

2. narrower

3. birfields (d44 front u-joints are stronger)


d44pro's:

1. stronger front

2. wider

3. offset rear to match offset sami x-case

4. more unsprung weight to keep the wheels on the ground

cons:

1. heavier (some people like the unsprung weight some don't)

2. standard not metric

3. wider ( like i said good for trail bad for street.)

4. front springs have to outboarded ( if you are swapping in wranglers at the same time this isn't much of a con because spring hangers will need to be redone anyway ).

ok there you have it from my perspective. i didn't list steering, cost, drive shafts, brakes, etc. because these mods are equal between the two. if 4.10's in the pumpkins are low enough for your needs then by all means save yourself some $$$ and get the toys.

for those considering a swap first see what you can find cheap and then see which of the pro's and cons better suite the route you want to go with your rig. either way you are giving giving your sami the ability to be pushed harder without fear of breakage. did i miss anything? :D
 

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Ok I get to play now too.

To start things off I want to address some points I have read in this post.

1.
5. i want a centerline to bottom of the pig measurement from both the toy and the 44. take a grinder to the bottom opf the lip of the 44. easy as that.
If your gonna get to take the grinder to the d-44 then take the torch to the toy axle. The toy axle can be cut down to gain an aditional 3/4" wich puts the toy axle at around 4" from centerline to the bottom of the diff. That's getting to sammy axle clearence. But yes it does require allot more work then grinding off the 1/2" lip on the bottom of the d-44.

2. all this talk about the birfield vs. u-joints. I still wanna see where a stock 5-297x is that much stonger then a stock birf. From what I have seen they are stonger when turned but when straight the birfield is actually stronger. I won't argue tho that ctm alloy u-joints are stonger, in fact the new 5-760x is probably stonger then a birf. AND alloy u-joints are cheaper then the heat treated birfields.

3. One thing people do forget about the toy axle is you loose turning radius. Dana axles all have a tighter angle on their knuckles. This could be good or bad, but I don't like it.

With all that said I think my personal opinion would be to get a d-44 front axle and a fj-40 land cruiser rear axle. The land cruiser rear axle is wider (55"-56") and off set. Plus you get all the advantages of a front d-44.
 

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toymaniac said:

1. If your gonna get to take the grinder to the d-44 then take the torch to the toy axle. The toy axle can be cut down to gain an aditional 3/4" wich puts the toy axle at around 4" from centerline to the bottom of the diff. That's getting to sammy axle clearence. But yes it does require allot more work then grinding off the 1/2" lip on the bottom of the d-44.
i was just trying to say forget the ground clearance issue. there isn't one. yes you can get the ol' torch out for the toy but if you are going that far then you can do the same to a 44. infact go look on the jeep board and look there is a post on the first page with pic's of this.

as for strenght it is true the d44 joint is only margionally stronger than the toy b/field but it IS stronger. there has been lots of talk about this on the toy board. why would alot of the toy guys choose to put a d44 in the front of thier truck if it wasn't? saw a write up a while back of some strength tests and it gave the amount of torque required to break a toy b/field and a d44 joint but i can't rememebr the actual #'s. the d44's did come out on top. as you have stated the new 5-760 joint would increase the difference between the two. they are about the same price as the 297's too where as the ctm's are $$$$.


i'd still go waggy front and rear instead of your sugguested setup do to the fact they can be had out of the same vehicle plus they are alot easier to find. also there are gearing issues when going low between the two. if they are like the mini toy 8's then the lowest matching ratio between the toy and the d44 is 4.88's.
 

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high5 said:
ok i have decided to give advantages/disadvantages of each as i see it. i will not include price because they are both about the same.

breakage. did i miss anything? :D
What about steering? The Toy stuff has flattop knuckles so hy-steer steering arms are bolt on. Can you do the same with the D44's? Also do you mind me using your list of pro's and cons on my axles swap write up?
 

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high5 said:
....i didn't list ...drive shafts, brakes, etc. because these mods are equal between the two.
I can add some factual input here:

The Toyota driveshafts are MUCH easier to adapt to the Samurai t-case flanges than the Dana-type driveshafts. Yeah, you gotta shorten both types, but all you have to do to bolt the 'yota flange on is to machine 1/32" from the inside of the flange lip, turn it 45 degrees & drill 4 new holes for bolts. That's it. BTW, I have been running a Stock Samurai front driveshaft in my Toy-axled rig for almost two years now. So this part is Not a 'wash".

Brakes Literally bolt in with the existing lines for the Toyota on the front, and if you have the single rear line (88.5 & newer) it bolts in the rear too. Also the emergency brake systems are very similar so it's easy to adapt & use. I know the Dana systems use big cables & would be much harder to adapt.

I had access to a set of Toy axles - this was the determining factor for me since by Good Buddy Chris needed to "get them out of his yard" :D But they have proven to be Excellent for My needs.
 

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high5 said:
i was just trying to say forget the ground clearance issue. there isn't one. yes you can get the ol' torch out for the toy but if you are going that far then you can do the same to a 44. infact go look on the jeep board and look there is a post on the first page with pic's of this.

as for strenght it is true the d44 joint is only margionally stronger than the toy b/field but it IS stronger. there has been lots of talk about this on the toy board. why would alot of the toy guys choose to put a d44 in the front of thier truck if it wasn't? saw a write up a while back of some strength tests and it gave the amount of torque required to break a toy b/field and a d44 joint but i can't rememebr the actual #'s. the d44's did come out on top. as you have stated the new 5-760 joint would increase the difference between the two. they are about the same price as the 297's too where as the ctm's are $$$$.

1. Yes you are right....the clearence is a non issue because you can get botht the d-44 and toy axles to within 1/2" of eachother.

2. As far as strength....I say a breaking strenght report as well....done by marlin (if that makes a difference to you). The 297's were only stronger then stock birfs when at an angle. The birfs were stronger when strait. This doesn't help much in rockcrawling seeing as you turn the wheel soo much. But I think the reason so many toy guys are swapping in d-44's is a combination of being a whole lot eisier install in toys,and added steering angle.
 

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I run Toy, IMHO the strength isn't an issue for either one. There both more than strong for a sammy. The compound angle for the rear is not an issue, I use to drive mine everyday (until I broke the windshield) with out any problems. However I the only reason I would run 44's over toys would be if you wanted the width. :)
 

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0ILBURNER said:


I can add some factual input here:

The Toyota driveshafts are MUCH easier to adapt to the Samurai t-case flanges than the Dana-type driveshafts. Yeah, you gotta shorten both types, but all you have to do to bolt the 'yota flange on is to machine 1/32" from the inside of the flange lip, turn it 45 degrees & drill 4 new holes for bolts. That's it. BTW, I have been running a Stock Samurai front driveshaft in my Toy-axled rig for almost two years now. So this part is Not a 'wash".

Brakes Literally bolt in with the existing lines for the Toyota on the front, and if you have the single rear line (88.5 & newer) it bolts in the rear too. Also the emergency brake systems are very similar so it's easy to adapt & use. I know the Dana systems use big cables & would be much harder to adapt.

I had access to a set of Toy axles - this was the determining factor for me since by Good Buddy Chris needed to "get them out of his yard" :D But they have proven to be Excellent for My needs.
just to clear up a few things:

drive shafts are not hard when converting the d44. all we did was use the jeep style shaft and keep the jeep slip yoke end (more travel that the stock sami stuff) and then cut the tube to length and add the sami joint to the other end. easy as that. the tube diameters can be found that are the same. so how is the toy easier? so wash i say:flipoff2: the benifit to running the toy shafts would be the joint used at the x-case end would be stronger. if you wanted with the waggy stuff you could either use a toy joint on the x-case end or mike schaffer (arca competitor) builds a setup that allows you to run a flanged end that works with the 1310 (jeep) joint on the sami x-case. the guys i know run them as a week link. of the both of them though i have only seen one break and i happened to be the one that did it.

brakes , with the exception of the emergency brake, bolt in with the waggy's too. i have said this over and over. i have done it!!!! i know!!!!! about the emergency brakes you may be correct. they may be harder but i wouldn't run them anyway. i like to convert to rear discs. :D

fatkid is correct in that the centered diff on the toy's isn't that big of a deal. the people i know with centered diffs in sami's have had broblems with vibration but a swap to a cv joint in the rear shaft cured that. just get hte cv and it works. i do however stil like the offset rear. not only to avoid compund angles on the shaft but having both pig on the same side can be really benifical when playing in the rocks.

ok AGAIN i am not here bashing toy axles in samurai's. i just see alot of false info floating around that i like to clear up .........ok you are right i think they are a better swap:flipoff2:
 
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