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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Just an opinion (factual) that I'd like to share.:flipoff2:

When you calc. the "break even point" of a diesel vs. a gas rig you HAVE to include resale value as a part of the equasion.

I have an eng. frien who just LOVES to speadsheet everything and figures are his bag:D

After I bought my 97 PSD he was looking at a new truck also.
He ended up with a 97 PSD...:)

He did every possible calculation on gas vs. diesel costs.

I don't have his figures.....:confused:
But, if you include the increased resale value of a diesel....
The break even point of the extra $$$$$$ to get the diesl option is about cut by 60% time wise.


So, yes a diesel costs more...
But, it will pay for it's self in less miles than most people think.


However.......
If you are a MOSTLY city/short hop/stop and go driver...
A gasser is a better choice for you as diesels really need to warm up and run.


Rant mode off :D

Just for giggles, here is my DD and Tow rig
 

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I also ran the numbers....and ignored them....because a after you tow with a oil burner there is no substitute.

02 F250 PSD
 

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I ran the numbers too when I looked for a truck:

dollar for dollar, gas is CHEAPER than Diesel following the recommended oil changes, etc. I figured I could replace the 360 motor every 100-150,000 miles and still be money ahead.

Now... catch.. diesel has its place. the V10 is a piece of shit from everything I have heard about it. (When a lightly modified 360 can pull righ along side it, something ain't right) So.. that leaves Diesel. If I go to a camper, and plan on hauling the jeep. Diesel is my next engine. If only they made an auto that can survive the cummins.
 

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ha

twaldher said:


The V10 is a piece of shit from everything I have heard about it. (When a lightly modified 360 can pull righ along side it, something ain't right) So.. that leaves Diesel. If I go to a camper, and plan on hauling the jeep. Diesel is my next engine. If only they made an auto that can survive the cummins.
What the fuck ever! I am not going to waste my time on this........
 

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I am an anal engineer spreadsheet geek too. I did the numbers over a 350,000 expected life of a powerstroke and it was cheaper than a gasser. I ass-u-me-d (and you know what they say about that word :D) that you would need to replace a gasser once during that time ($$$), diesel is cheaper than gas at the pumps ($$$), and the psd gets better mileage than a big-block ($$$). The initial cost and maintenance costs were negatives of course. But with those assumptions, I went with the diesel. If you throw in the benefits of flying up the Tehatchepi's at 70 mph pulling 17,000 lbs on your way to Johnson Valley, you have the most important element in the economic decision making process.... The diesel has huge gonads :smokin:
 

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Tusker said:
diesel is cheaper than gas at the pumps ($$$),

Not necessarily - here in TN it is not un common to find diesel $.10 HIGHER than low grade gas.
 

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twaldher said:
the V10 is a piece of shit from everything I have heard about it.
If I had a dime for every person who ran off at the mouth without having a real clue about the Ford V10 - I would be a very rich man :rolleyes:
 

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I ran the numbers - ALL OF THEM.


We are talking about $30-40k trucks, right?

So when ou figure in that $5k PSD option vs. the $800 V10 option, did you figure in INTEREST?

That's right, unless you are paying CASH for that $35k PSD truck, you are gonna pay interest in that extra $4200 purchase price... Did you figure that in too?


And for the person who based their numbers on the expected life of a PSD at 350k miles, you can't do that unless you actually will own it that long, or your calculations are flawed.


Like I said - I ran ALL of the numbers, and the numbers still came out that $ for $ - the V10 was cheaper UNLESS:

1. You drive 40,000 miles per year or more
2. You need to pull 12,000 lbs or more on a regular basis (I have yet to ever pull that much, and have no intentions of doing so)


A buddy has the identical truck to mine - except mine is a V10 short bed, his is a PSD long bed. He averages 16 mpg normal driving, I average 12... not the huge difference people like to claim there is...

I could go on, but I have found that diesel owners generally ignore facts, and will claim diesels are perfect in *every* instance... pretty much a waste of time to try to get them to see anything else :p
 

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DRM said:
I ran the numbers - ALL OF THEM.


We are talking about $30-40k trucks, right?

So when ou figure in that $5k PSD option vs. the $800 V10 option, did you figure in INTEREST?

That's right, unless you are paying CASH for that $35k PSD truck, you are gonna pay interest in that extra $4200 purchase price... Did you figure that in too?


And for the person who based their numbers on the expected life of a PSD at 350k miles, you can't do that unless you actually will own it that long, or your calculations are flawed.


Like I said - I ran ALL of the numbers, and the numbers still came out that $ for $ - the V10 was cheaper UNLESS:

1. You drive 40,000 miles per year or more
2. You need to pull 12,000 lbs or more on a regular basis (I have yet to ever pull that much, and have no intentions of doing so)


A buddy has the identical truck to mine - except mine is a V10 short bed, his is a PSD long bed. He averages 16 mpg normal driving, I average 12... not the huge difference people like to claim there is...

I could go on, but I have found that diesel owners generally ignore facts, and will claim diesels are perfect in *every* instance... pretty much a waste of time to try to get them to see anything else :p
identical truck not even close that is like telling your boss your comply done with the job but i still nave to finnish one think. ive pulled with many gas trucks i dont care what a diesel cost i will never buy a gas tow rig ever again!!!!!
 

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Originally posted by 85 rocrnr
identical truck not even close that is like telling your boss your comply done with the job but i still nave to finnish one think.


Both are Lariat packages, 4x4, Crew Cab, auto and even the same color :p... But I guess they are tons different :rolleyes:



ive pulled with many gas trucks i dont care what a diesel cost i will never buy a gas tow rig ever again!!!!!

Proves my point above exactly :laughing:
 

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DRM said:


If I had a dime for every person who ran off at the mouth without having a real clue about the Ford V10 - I would be a very rich man :rolleyes:
I think he was talking about the Dodge since the only other engines he mentioned were the 360 & Cummins :flipoff2:

BTW, diesel is more expensive than gas here too.

I've run the numbers too. And yes, the diesel will bring more resale, but it'll also cost you more not only in price, but also INTEREST if you finance the truck. So, don't leave that out ;) BTW, what I've found is that if you're driving your truck every day, you still can't financially justify the diesel. Unless you're driving it WITH A LOAD every day, you'd be better off financially getting a gas truck, PARKING it until you need it, and use the $5,000 you saved to buy a cheap, used, 4-cylinder car to drive around every day. That's the route I went & it's why it has taken me 8 months to put 4,500 miles on my new truck, despite the fact that I've driven the truck more than necessary just 'cause it's new & I'm testing it out (at that rate, tell me how soon that diesel is gonna pay for itself :D).

For $300, I can put a set of tires on my car that will last 100,000 miles.

For $30, I can buy enough fuel to run 500 miles.

In 110,000 miles, the car has depreciated about $4,000 - try that with a $40,000 brand-new truck.

And the extra insurance is about $200 a year.

So, the bottom line is, all you guys driving around in 3/4 or 1-ton trucks as daily-driver, financially speaking, you ALL made the wrong choice :flipoff2:

TEX

PS, as for "never looking back" once you've owned a diesel, I don't even have a BIG gas engine, and I wouldn't trade it for my father-in-law's PSD. I'd need to get a much, much larger trailer, and probably move to 8,000 feet of elevation before I'd consider the diesel. It would be overkill for my (and most people's) application.
 

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Went on over to www.ford.com and priced out IDENTICAL trucks, except for the V10 and PSD engine options.

Both were 2002 Lariat, Crew Cab, 4x4, Off Road package, short bed, 6 speed.

PSD = $39,705.00
V10 = $35,465.00

At 5% for 5 years, the monthly note would be:

PSD = $749.28
V10 = $669.27

That comes out to an $80.01 a month difference, or $960.18 per year of ownership.


Assuming you own the truck for 3 years (about average), The PSD cost you $2,880.36 more than the .

Now, head over to www.kbb.com to get used truck values. Punching in the same options as above except for a 2000 truck (simulating a 3 year old truck) and using 20k miles per year as for a total of 60,000 miles for both trucks over the 3 years, you get the following trade in values:

PSD = $21,655
V10 = $17,930

Which gets you are re-sale trade in difference of $3,725.

Now subtract the higher payment cost from that, for an ACTUAL difference in re-sale over the 3 year ownership of the truck of $844.64

Now, take that ACTUAL re-sale sifference of $844.64 and figure in the higher maintenance cost of the PSD over those 3 years /60,000 miles and tell me which one comes out ahead ;)
 

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TEX said:
So, the bottom line is, all you guys driving around in 3/4 or 1-ton trucks as daily-driver, financially speaking, you ALL made the wrong choice :flipoff2:
Wife drives ours daily... but when she is a stay at home mom, "daiy driver" may not get drive at all some days :p

We have put less than 6k miles on ours in the last 4 months, and that includes several trips out of state :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Most of the points brought up are OK...

And it just shows that all people don't have the same "right" decision when it comes to what they are going to drive.

That's OK..... That is why there are more than one company still in bussiness making trucks:D

Of course the Ford is the best truck:flipoff2:

Just my opinion based on facts that work for me:p

The interest is a very good point (paid cash for mine).

For milage comparissons...

ALLWAYS compare like trucks if the figures are going to be worth anything.
Same gears?
Same tires (inflation pressures) ?
Same driving style?
AC on/off Windows open/closed ?
etc. etc. etc.

This all makes a difference.

I average 14.??? MPG overall with a low of approx. 12 and a high of about 18 mpg. 15-16 MPG daily
I have 4:10 gears....
So, my milage hurts a little, but, I can tow in OD.

I love my truck.
I have also owned a lot of gassers and they worked for me too.
For most people a diesel is a waste of $$$$$.
For me it was/is the perfect decision.


Run what ya brung boys:D

Cory
 

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Lord Baskerville said:
For milage comparissons...

ALLWAYS compare like trucks if the figures are going to be worth anything.
Same gears?
Same tires (inflation pressures) ?
Same driving style?
AC on/off Windows open/closed ?
etc. etc. etc.

This all makes a difference.
Exactly.... and there are MORE factors that make a difference to:

*just driver, or normally 2-4 passengers?
*topper?
*bed cover?
*tailgate down?
*lifted?
*tire tread design?
*driving style (hammer down, or easy going)?
*altitude?
*engine modifications (factor in both performance and cost changes)?
*auto or manual?
*city driving or interstate?
*empty bed, or partially loaded at all times?


I could go on, but you are right - there are a LOT of factors to compare vehicles.

In the comparison I made above with the long bed PSD vs. my short bed V10 - the trucks are driven about the same (I know his driving style), same regional driving conditions, same average of interstate to ity miles, etc...
 

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If ya wanna go penny for penny on truck prices, I have the solution. DONT GET INTO OFFROADING!:D:D:D

For those who wanna finish going overboard on a sport that is really overboard....

GOT DEISEL?:D
 

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while i was shopping for mine (f250 V10) i was actually planning to get a PSD, looked at seeral places and none wanted to budge on the price, all were 38-40k for a short bed x-cab XLT well teh V10 lariet i ended up buying they went down the invoice on, (i saw it) $29,400 9k less than the PSD had 3 different dealer's do almost the same thing, i'm extremly happy with my V10 and it doesn't get but 3-4 worse than friends with PSD's and it pulls right along side of them towing equal or greater weights.

i even got 8mpg weighing over 17k and towing over a mountain pass... passing PSD's towing less... and i've only got 3.73 gears and 315/75 tires...
 

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DRM said:
.....did you figure in INTEREST?....
....And for the person who based their numbers on the expected life of a PSD at 350k miles, you can't do that unless you actually will own it that long, or your calculations are flawed.....
If you are going to get that technical (and you are right, you really should to be that technical to be accurate about it), you need to take the interest and subtract the inflation rate to get the true net present value of the difference between the two. So interest does take away, but not as much as it would outwardly appear.

As for the 350,000 miles, I do plan on owning it that long. I have 140,000 on it so far :D. If you sell it before the end of its "life", you need to figure in the added resale value of the diesel (salvage value) to make things fair.

As for the "you don't need a diesel unless you use it regularly to tow 12,000 lbs". That is true, but if I used that as my measure I would have bought a two-wheel drive, 4-cyl. Toyota, saved lots of dough, and fealt :( for 10 years driving it.

In your cost comparison on the 36 month life, you made some errors. The psd actually COSTS you $980 more than the V-10 rather than "saving" you $844.64. The simple ownership calcs actually go something like this (cost to finance of 36 payments less resale plus outstanding loan balance):

PSD cost to own = $26,974 (36 pmts @ $749.28) - $21,655 (resale) + $17,079 (oustanding loan balance) = $22,398

V-10 cost to own = $24,093 - $17,930 + $15,255 = $21,418

In the area of operating costs, things are a little different however. Using you figures and my local fuel prices.... The PSD over 60,000 miles @16 mpg would use 3,750 gallons of fuel. At $1.50 per gallon (local prices), the fuel would cost $5,625 over the three years. For the V-10, it would use 5,000 gallons (12 mpg avg??) over the same 60,000 miles. At a cost of $1.60 (same local prices), the fuel would cost $8,000.

Soooo, the psd cost is $22,398 + $5,625 = $28,023
and the V-10 cost is $21,418 + $8,000 = $29,418

PSD savings = $1,395 $$$$$$$

The psd would use around 100 more quarts of oil @ $1.50 each (assuming 5,000 mile oil changes) and about an extra $50 in oil filters. Throw in the marginal "extra" cost of 3 fuel filters and 3 air filters at $10 each for another $60, and the total is:

$1,395 - $150 - $50 - $60 = $1,135 cheaper for the Powerstroke . When you compare that to an overall cost of $30,000+ over the three year term, it isn't enough to get excited about though.

I manage a large fleet of equipment. I actually buy a mix in the pickups and SUV's. I buy v-10's for the start and stop around-town stuff, and I buy diesels for the heavy duty work. Thay are both great.

Anyway guys, you cannot make this an "objective, right/wrong" decision. What is right for you depends on what YOU are going to do with it and what you want to pay to get it done.
 

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Some interesting numbers there :)

I only see 2 issues.

1. Here *locally* diesel is quite often higher - so that changes the numbers a bit.

2. Those numbers figure in re-sale value like it is a hard and fast number, whish it is not.

I prefer to work the numbers not figuring in an estimated re-cale value specifically, since that is a true estimated value and can vary widely...


But you are correct - there are so many variables that makes each one have benefits for each person.

And generally, you find that gas users see this, but most diesel-heads are blind to it ;)
 
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