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Drivers Union

10K views 125 replies 64 participants last post by  Kunker 
#1 ·
So the newest Ultra 4 letter has encouraged us to start a drivers union. This is the only form of Motorsports I have ever been a part of but I know that other forms have these unions set up.

What do we need to do to set this up?

How does it work?

Pirate 4x4 Mods, could we clean out the competitor only forum, or start a new Ultra 4 competitor only forum that you would only gain access to with membership to the Ultra 4 union?

Looking forward to this, and seeing how we can make our sport that much better.
 
#2 ·
Pirate 4x4 Mods, could we clean out the competitor only forum, or start a new Ultra 4 competitor only forum that you would only gain access to with membership to the Ultra 4 union?

The people that can make that decision are on the Rubicon this week. I've alerted them, for when they get back.
 
#4 ·
I'm unclear on the value that a union will provide. I've re-read Dave's email.

I've been involved in U4 as a co-driver for awhile and just recently as a driver.

My experience with unions has been to help groups from being treated unfairly. Most have union fees. What's the value here to the teams?

Thanks...
 
#5 · (Edited)
Here is what Dave said, just so it is here. There needs to be a way to for drivers to express their concerns in private, not on social media that makes everyone involved look bad.

Pick a few racers from each class to represent their class for people to come too, especially new racers that may be intimidated. People who can communicate well with Ultra 4. Maybe even a few non racers, John Goodby came to my mind.

There has been a couple issues this year at races that it would have been good to be able to discuss with racers only on how to change them from happening again.


"As with everything else in life, growth comes with growing pains. I completely botched the competition yellow at Stampede. Scoring races across multiple heats has proved to be a challenge. We reached for the stars with our National Championship Race in Vegas and lost the land again. But perhaps the biggest adjustment has been in regards to my personal interaction with the teams. At the OG race, I obviously knew every competitor. That didn't change much for the first few years and even when we had 100 cars at KOH, I felt comfortable that I knew most every team personally. It was easy to communicate. If there was a problem, I could walk to your pit, we would sit down and talk about it. Even if it got rough, it was still 'among family.' The unprecedented growth of our family has caused a fairly significant communication gap. To put it bluntly, my style, or lack thereof is more effective if I've known you for 10 years, competed against you, built this family with you. It doesn't translate to the new guy who is wondering why I am yelling at them at their first race.



There are two opportunities for change. First, I will continue to work harder to be more patient (stop laughing). I have tried to facilitate that with hiring more top notch staff to carry the workload. Second, and perhaps even more difficult, is the formation of a Drivers Union or Advisory Board. I was a staunch supporter of this concept eight years ago when we tried it in Rock Crawling. I support it completely now. Here is my challenge to you as a collective. Don't use this opportunity for political infighting and a formal complaint process. Use it to truly change and grow. Let's work together on how to grow our sport, engage spectators, service partners. Let's develop a plan to merchandise your likenesses and YOUR brand. Let's take the next step of making you the heroes you are. My only concern with a union is actually losing your voice. Any one of you can pick up the phone and call me 24 hours a day. I don't want to lose that. It will help to have a buffer , but I don't want to lose contact with 'the family'.



You all need to drive this evolution. I will support you unconditionally, but it needs be your creation. I look forward to the changes to come."
 
#8 ·
I attend more than my fair share of Meetings and this is what works for most.

Election of the board
Working Committee formation
Schedule Meetings (During each Race would probably be the easiest)

Meetings (recommend Robert’s Rules of Order)
Board defines Committees goals

Committees would hash our details and bring to Board
Committees could be base geographically to insure they can meet
Board would present to Ultra4

Lessons Learned (is alway interesting)
Vendors Presentation - 2 Max per meeting 30 minutes (we let them pay for meetings food and drink for the chance to present to us)

Open Discussions for all
This is where issues and ideas are brought to the Organization


There is a lot more than above. This is only what I took from the top of my head.
 
#36 ·
That's a good start.
I have been both an Advisory Board member and a Management Union negotiator and a union member.
Unions have a negative connotation and this would not really be a union, but a Divers Association with elected or appointed Representstives, to meet, talk, call with Dave.
There is a need for a mechanism to address certain issues, some can be easily handled prior to events, some come up during an event, some immediately afterwards because the situation has never happenned before.
I think Dave is being gracious to put this out for discussion, it sounds like a proper thing to do...something someone old like Gerald would be good at... ;)
 
#9 · (Edited)
  • call it an advisory board as it's meant to advise u4 a union just sounds like a bitch fest and let's keep it positive. (not a union fan)
  • have multiple representatives from each class (if there are enough to warrant it)
  • make sure to represent each region in your advisory board
  • make sure the representatives have access to U4 staff (this will obviously take cooperation from U4)
  • make sure whomever is elected to represent will be at each race (possibly for just their specific region?)
 
#10 ·
Is there going to be beer served at these meetings? I'm in!

Idea;
Try to get someone from every state or designated area to sit on the board. I know in AZ, we all know each other, we recreate together and share similar businesses. It would be easy to have one rep as the voice for AZ racers. I know Cali will need more then one and I'm sure there are states that will be combined with others but you get the idea, Drivers in close proximity can unite for one voice.

I like meetings with orsdevours too!
 
#11 ·
Union, board or whatever, I think it's just semantics. This group would also deal with racing issues like course cutting and other rule violations. It takes it out of Dave's hands which is good for him and us. It would also give us a chance to educate our new drivers on course etiquette and give them somewhere to ask questions about the inner workings of Ultra 4. Done correctly, a lot of good for everyone could come from this.
 
#12 ·
I think course cutting, etc. would still be on Dave. He's the race promoter and he's in charge of keeping the racing legit.


Is there going to be beer served at these meetings? I'm in!

Idea;
Try to get someone from every state or designated area to sit on the board. I know in AZ, we all know each other, we recreate together and share similar businesses. It would be easy to have one rep as the voice for AZ racers. I know Cali will need more then one and I'm sure there are states that will be combined with others but you get the idea, Drivers in close proximity can unite for one voice.

I like meetings with orsdevours too!
I'm thinking the board would need to be much smaller than that. 5-7 people max in the end. Otherwise, nothing will ever get accomplished. In the grand scheme of things we're talking about a few hundred drivers total, a large advisory board would be pointless.
 
#18 ·
I think course cutting, etc. would still be on Dave. He's the race promoter and he's in charge of keeping the racing legit.
Yeah but it would be good to have this elected group available like a CRB when course cutting, timing infractions, etc happen.

I can volunteer for that part at least. I'm pretty well out of U4 racing for the time being otherwise.
That would be awesome, and I agree would be a great place to start so we could nominate people to put on this board.

A union is usually a separate entity.
Gotcha, I was just using the wording that the Ultra 4 letter sent out.:)
 
#13 ·
NASCAR doesnt have a drivers union, I think that says something.....

My thought would be an as needed AdHoc stroll through the paddock (actual or online) or drivers meeting to voice concern would be better served.


Competitor forum here needs a revamped with a Moderator that would actively keep the membership list reasonablely up to date. Thats still a problem because issues tend to leak to the promoter before the issue has been fully vetted and options laid out. Then said promoter flys off handle.
 
#14 ·
Competitor forum here needs a revamped with a Moderator that would actively keep the membership list reasonablely up to date. Thats still a problem because issues tend to leak to the promoter before the issue has been fully vetted and options laid out. Then said promoter flys off handle.
I can volunteer for that part at least. I'm pretty well out of U4 racing for the time being otherwise.
 
#16 ·
I like the idea, as a 1st year Ultra 4 team but long time off road competitor I have seen a few things that would rub some newcomers the wrong way. In for updates.

Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App
 
#17 ·
I think a private online forum is a good place to start. The drivers' union, advisory board, council, etc, sounds like a good idea, but to be objective the members need to be elected by fellow drivers, otherwise it will be dominated by the "Golden Rule" (whoever has the gold makes the rules). Even then it will be difficult for driver representatives to be 100% objective since each driver will naturally be biased towards their region (East vs West), sponsors, and rules to fit their car (for limited classes).
 
#20 ·
We already have a competitors only forum, and no one ever uses it. Honestly, Dave has always done a good job, IMO, at listening to concerns/complaints, and giving reasoning for backing his decision, so the private forum isn't always needed, but.... I feel if there is a concern/complaint, it should not be done in a public forum/area. It should be done in private to keep a professional image.
 
#25 · (Edited)
I've been a U4 driver for 5 years and never been accepted to the private forum for whatever reason, after asking several times.

That being said, I think a private format for race related discussion, with an agreed upon hierarchy, would be healthy for all involved before situations like the aforementioned de-evolve into a public morass. We can keep our grievances and concerns professionally, or at least have them hidden from the public to some extent, before an overly public release. The only real sticking point would be Dave's (or whoever is concerned and affected) acceptance and utilization of any issues addressed. Be it inter-driver issues, or organizational, I think it would be a healthier format to resolve issues. Honestly, it need not be U4 specific, it could also include werock, BITD, rallyventure etc. Just so we as racers can have a collective voice to ourselves individually, and across the other organizations, in order to keep some consensus of intent, as well as overall organization or events.

just my $0.02 thus far.

~Greg Lundeen
 
#27 ·
I agree, but the hierarchy should include a way to disseminate non-inflammatory information to the fans.

I didn't know there was a problem until it was put up on the internet, which, caused a lot of confusion with very little information. Too much he said, she said, with no explanation as to what was making some people pissed at Dave and some supporting Dave.

~Steve
 
#26 ·
Every sport I have competed in has a representative to the organization.
Surfing we had a Surfers Rep
Baseball we had a team captain
Soccer we had a team captain

I think more effective would be a class Rep in each region. That way your not dealing with meetings, dues & being on the East coast not having a real voice if things are going down (meeting) on the West coast.
 
#29 ·
Call it what you will I'm just getting into the u4 scene and a buffer is always a good idea. Most pro sports have some sort of union. I know there are a lot of union haters out there but I also know a lot of weekend racers that are union workers in their regular jobs myself included also there seems to be a large out cry for American made parts in this industry that's what unions are founded on and built this country with. I don't believe that a "closed" forum will ever work it's too easy to screen shot stuff and it quickly spreads like wild fire and words always get twisted. A committee of some sort should be in place.
 
#32 ·
I don't believe that a "closed" forum will ever work it's too easy to screen shot stuff and it quickly spreads like wild fire and words always get twisted. A committee of some sort should be in place.
Both of these. I'm just a fan, but I've been a competitor and a cone dodger judge in the past. If you guys go underground/private/hidden and spring "comp" yellows on we the fans it's going to hurt the sport. Tell us how to get the most out of your event as a fan with no surprise ruined races and you'll continue to grow.
Frankly, and this might be an unpopular opinion, these comments are WHY it needs to be private. Let the driver's air their grievances, away from the promoters, and let an elected advisory board take those grievances to the promoter.

The "comp yellow," was a promoter decision, not the competitors. This forum will be specifically for the competitors.
 
#35 ·
Elect two drivers reps. Two people that really want to serve. Guys or Girls that want to make a serious effort and don't mind getting calls and holding firm to what the drivers want regardless of the promoters wishes. Someone's that have the respect of all the drivers.
 
#39 ·
I think you need more than two, purely to get opinions from multiple regions. One or two from each class would be good as well. Thinking 5 would be a good start (I'm not a fan of even numbers for something like this).

2 - 4400 (1 east, 1 west)
2 - 4500/4600 (1 east, 1 west)
1 - UTV (although I could see UTV growing larger than the other two classes combined in the semi-near future)
 
#43 ·
4400: Rotating Committee of past 2 years of Kings + previous season points champion
If any of those 4 is the same person, then go back 3 years King, or #2 in season point previous year.

4500/4600/4700:
Rotating committee of previous season point champions of each class.
If any of these spots are somehow also already a representative then #2 is season points previous year.

That gets you 6 people.

Small committee. Half to 4400/half to the balance of NON-Golfcart Classes.


Thoughts? Then its no longer a popularity contest for that committee, none are in-bedded unless they continue to win and win and win, but that still only allows them the single spot on committee.
 
#46 ·
I like this a lot. My only concerns will be the fact that just because you win doesn't make you a good representative and the regional dilemma. It might make sense to increase the size of the committee (say two per region) so that we have a better chance of a solid rep in each region.


It would really suck to have an incredible driver as a rep for your region and have none of your voice heard because they aren't good in that position. I know it would be a tough position for myself, i'm just not built that way.

I also think region specific reps should be a definite. I don't say that because i'm from the east coast, but I do have concerns that someone over on the west coast (who maybe hasn't raced in the location we are discussing at the time) may not understand fully. I took this year off from U4 to focus on growing our team efforts and it has been the best decision I have made to date. Next year i'll be back on the U4 circuit and I want it to continue to grow and evolve so we can continue to push the envelope. It is literally our life.
 
#67 ·
Appreciate the offer, however having experience with both labor negotiations and boards, face to face gets the best results.
Certainly other forms of communications can supplement that, but true decision making requires a face to face. There are just too many nuances lost when you can't hear the passion, facial expressions, and sincerity of a face to face meeting.
 
#49 ·
I also think that the purpose of this union / committee whatever should be to give the entire driver population a voice. Picking based on previous finishing positions will not give this. Most of the people finishing on the podium are not afraid to pick up the phone and call Dave and tell them what they think, or at least know Dave well enough that they can have that conversation. But for the other 140 people they are the ones who need to be represented on this. To me that's how the Union would deliver to the entire driver field. It's got to give balance between the big money teams trying to make a business out of it and the little guys competing for the fun of it (who in my opinion are still the huge majority in U4). To me the Union should not be in anyway responsible for the decision making on penalties - this is an event organiser thing and whilst I think a driver's rep should sit on the CRB, the CRB should be separate from this.

The Union should work with the entire driver field and the event organiser to:
1. Help feed back to the organiser the driver's views on the future and allow the organiser to understand where the drivers want to go with the series and how this could be incorporated into the organiser's vision, including timing of events, types of race courses and locations.

2. Be a reference point for future rule book changes including definitions of penalties, classes and safety rules

3. Be a mechanism for drivers to air grievances with the promoter in a professional manner.

I think at the end of the day we have to realise that each promoter controls their own decisions and the Union will never be able to tell them what to do, just advise.
 
#51 ·
Ben-
i think my selection process is the least biased and will accomplish what you want.

2 most recent Kings. They are likely pro's
1 last season points champ. Likely Pro so clearly has seen a lot of courses and race miles

3 last season points champs from the other Classes. I.E. Representing the littler guys.

So now the board is fairly balanced. 50% Pro 50% Non-pro

You want the most experienced people, no?
And they will have the ability as today to talk to peers, access to the forum, and be a Point of Contact for anyone who has sent a form to Shannon.

You certainly have tossed out a lot of "wants/needs" but no other alternative solution.

Ill add maybe since my proposal equaled a 50/50 split its possible if they ever voted a tie could happen.
Then at that point maybe the first OG13 that can be reached/contacted is the tiebreaker.....???
Or maybe random draw of most recent race entry list and call that person.

I think the key to any "board" is ensuring the board isnt corruptable, heavy handed, or biased. All kinda hard to accomplish. But if everyone can point to how those people made it to the table and that is wasnt by lobby or popularity people can be semi-comfortable that their interest are represented. And if you dont believe your interest are met you have the forum venue as well as calling and member of that board to voice. Additionally if you want a voice thats a vote at the table. GO WIN!!!!



Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App
 
#53 ·
One past king only races one race a year. Also the last two Kings are from the West. Not fair in my opinion. Not all of these people will want to take on the extra responsibility.

That is why you need an elected board so people that want to serve will put their hat into the ring and the membership will decide by vote.

Chairman decides tie votes. A Chairman is voted on by board members.
 
#56 ·
As a new guy to Ultra 4, albeit in the 4500 class, I see a drivers advisory board as a great way to make sure our needs as racers can be balanced with the needs of the promoter. I'm one of the guys that do it for fun as Ben said, which I also feel makes up a majority of Ultra 4 at this point.

One suggestion I have for the picking of members of the board is running a vote of the drivers where the members have to "sell" themselves to the drivers. Yes it sounds corny but you do need someone with some tact and personality to take our rough ideas and sell them to Dave. Also, there needs to be some sort of qualifications in order to be a member of the board. For one running either the East or West series and KOH needs to be one for sure, I wouldn't necessarily make it dependent on who is a leader in points or a race winner because that 10th place guy may be a hell of a lot better talker and leader than the race or points leader.

I'm excited to be apart of this sport and only want to see it grow, but don't want to see it become something like SCORE where only big money can get in and be competitive.
 
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