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Look at these guys:

https://www.dorken.com/media/docs/products/Brochure_DELTA-MS.pdf

https://www.dorken.com/en/our-products/products/residential/delta-ms.php

The Foundation Protection System that Keeps Basements Dry
Protecting your foundations from water and moisture is critical. DELTA®-MS is a dimpled membrane that uses our exclusive Air-gap Technology to ensure your basements stay dry and last longer.

Watch our webinar and see why DELTA®-MS is the solution.


Long-lasting Moisture Protection, Long-lasting Satisfaction
The vacuum-formed dimpled pattern creates an air gap between the membrane and the foundation, allowing water to drain. By keeping water away from the foundation wall, DELTA®-MS is able to keep basements permanently dry and protected. Unlike sprays, which crack when concrete walls crack, it bridges cracks so no water intrusions can occur. This dampproofing helps ensure more comfortable and healthier living spaces for your homeowners; better efficiency and durability for your buildings; and fewer warranty claims and call-backs for you.
I've only used their slab underlayment product for keeping a wood floor on a slab from getting funky (different, lighter weight system). Very good product that seals as well as provides an airspace, or, in your case, a drainage plane.

I've seen several articles in the Journal of Fine Home Building, etc., along with enuf building science to think this would be a good solution.

It's something I'm considering for a client that has a similar problem.

In my mind, it provides a "safe space" of about 1" between soil/gravel and foundation wall. The inevitable moisture, drips, etc. hae a place to go and drain to with this system, and it provides a means for the concrete foundation wall to dry quickly, should it get damp.
 

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Discussion Starter #23 (Edited)
Look at these guys:

https://www.dorken.com/media/docs/products/Brochure_DELTA-MS.pdf

https://www.dorken.com/en/our-products/products/residential/delta-ms.php



I've only used their slab underlayment product for keeping a wood floor on a slab from getting funky (different, lighter weight system). Very good product that seals as well as provides an airspace, or, in your case, a drainage plane.

I've seen several articles in the Journal of Fine Home Building, etc., along with enuf building science to think this would be a good solution.

It's something I'm considering for a client that has a similar problem.

In my mind, it provides a "safe space" of about 1" between soil/gravel and foundation wall. The inevitable moisture, drips, etc. hae a place to go and drain to with this system, and it provides a means for the concrete foundation wall to dry quickly, should it get damp.


I’ve seen that, like the concept, but it’s not what I need/am looking for. I need waterproof, not dampproof. I know I could use this around the insulation that’s being adhered to the block foundation but I’m not sure how that helps over plain 30-80 mil rubber sheet. I assume there’s a large price difference.
 

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Discussion Starter #24
Excavate, clean, spray waterproofing. Then install drainboard to wall. Put in two footing drains, one below footing height and one sitting on footing. Cover in stone and cover with filter fabric. Then backfill with more stone agaisnt wall. A curtain drain further from the house will make a huge difference by catching that water before it geta to the house.



This is what i did to stop a major groundwater issue with clay soil in my house. Was put in when i did foundation though, so it was easy. 8-10k would be paying someone to do all the work. I think ive got mine done under 5k.


Revisiting this: would you still spray the concrete in waterproofing and put the insulation board over that and then wrap the insulation board with some type of waterproof membrane?

Or not spray the waterproofing on the concrete, just install the insulation board and wrap in membrane?

I’m thinking that you don’t want the insulation board sandwiched between two waterproofed items.
 

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Grind ditches in basement near wall that drain to a sump. Invest in good sump pump and generator. That's SOP up here for the spring thaw in old houses. I used to live in a house that would get 5000+GPH of water in it for a few weeks. I had a 1hp wayne sump pump than ran constantly and a 1/2hp no-name pump that cycled. Jets of water would shoot in from the block. We lost power for about 1 hour one spring had had 2 feet of water down there.

So glad to be in the house I'm in now. SCREW wet basements.
 

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Discussion Starter #26
Grind ditches in basement near wall that drain to a sump. Invest in good sump pump and generator. That's SOP up here for the spring thaw in old houses. I used to live in a house that would get 5000+GPH of water in it for a few weeks. I had a 1hp wayne sump pump than ran constantly and a 1/2hp no-name pump that cycled. Jets of water would shoot in from the block. We lost power for about 1 hour one spring had had 2 feet of water down there.

So glad to be in the house I'm in now. SCREW wet basements.


I’d rather not depend on a sump pump to not flood my basement seeing as how I’ll be finishing it this winter. I’d rather excavate and run drain tile 200’ away from the house, waterproof, and insulate the foundation walls.
 

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I’d rather not depend on a sump pump to not flood my basement seeing as how I’ll be finishing it this winter. I’d rather excavate and run drain tile 200’ away from the house, waterproof, and insulate the foundation walls.
That's the right way, not the yooper way.

I would still try to keep a sump and pump down there just in case. Be very careful to set up your drain field system so that it doesn't freeze up. It was standard practice around here to run the perimeter drain into the septic tank which stays thawed. Since it's clear water it just goes right out the existing laterals. deq doesn't like that but it works well. Draining to daylight has a good chance of freezing up or back flowing.
 

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Discussion Starter #28
That's the right way, not the yooper way.



I would still try to keep a sump and pump down there just in case. Be very careful to set up your drain field system so that it doesn't freeze up. It was standard practice around here to run the perimeter drain into the septic tank which stays thawed. Since it's clear water it just goes right out the existing laterals. deq doesn't like that but it works well. Draining to daylight has a good chance of freezing up or back flowing.


The drain field will be 200’ away and 10’ underground feeding into a pond, so I’m not worried about it freezing.

I have a sump already but there’s so much clay in the soil and under the slab it doesn’t drain into the sump from 3/4’s of the house. Hell, there’s a 2’ square hole through the slab with bone dry dirt at the bottom 1’ off the foundation where literal streams of water run when it rains. So the sump pump is more just for show....
 

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I’ve seen that, like the concept, but it’s not what I need/am looking for. I need waterproof, not dampproof. I know I could use this around the insulation that’s being adhered to the block foundation but I’m not sure how that helps over plain 30-80 mil rubber sheet. I assume there’s a large price difference.
In my mind, you'd use both. Search YouTube for "Matt Risinger" and check out some of his foundation videos. He's got a lot of good building science behind him.

What I was thinking for your project was a ~30 Mil Bitchathane sheet, and/or a fluid applied coating to seal the wall. The dimple matts purpose is to provide a drainage plane to the French Drain so you aren't relying on the Bituthene alone to hold back the water pressure.

The idea is to relieve the pressure by draining water away, vs. creating a dam where water backs up accumulating and saturating the soil at the "dam" we'll call your foundation.

You already realize there's water pressure. Water is getting though your concrete wall. That doesn't happen by capillary action alone. :smokin:
 

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Do some reading on https://buildingscience.com/ these guys are the leaders in the industry for a number of wall, roof and foundation assemblies. Dr. Joe Lstiburek is brilliant and brings real word experience to his solutions.
This. :smokin:

The dimple matt I posted is one version of drainboard. Not sure if it's the best or cheapest.

I have a project upcoming this spring, where we just may use some of that.

That reminds me: I need to go by the house and see where its coming in exactly, it's been raining like a mofo for a bit over a week.
 

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Discussion Starter #31 (Edited)
In my mind, you'd use both. Search YouTube for "Matt Risinger" and check out some of his foundation videos. He's got a lot of good building science behind him.



What I was thinking for your project was a ~30 Mil Bitchathane sheet, and/or a fluid applied coating to seal the wall. The dimple matts purpose is to provide a drainage plane to the French Drain so you aren't relying on the Bituthene alone to hold back the water pressure.



The idea is to relieve the pressure by draining water away, vs. creating a dam where water backs up accumulating and saturating the soil at the "dam" we'll call your foundation.



You already realize there's water pressure. Water is getting though your concrete wall. That doesn't happen by capillary action alone. :smokin:

I’ll check out those videos after the kiddos go to bed tonight, but I have a strong preference to forums. I can skim while reading, can’t do that with videos easily :D

What I’ve found for the waterproofing agent is this: https://webbsonline.com/Item/22602

I’d need $3600 worth of it to just get the bare minimum 2 coats on, which blows my budget. I was expecting/hoping for half of that. I’m sure there are other products with better coverage for less but I’m just not finding it. I had looked into the bithuthene sheets, but with the primer, tape, etc to install it there isn’t much of a savings there. I’d also much rather have a liquid to apply as I feel the end result is more reliable.

My current plan then is after excavation and pressure washing, is to apply 2 coats of that liquid rubber, insulation, dimpled membrane, socked drain tails 6” below the footing sill, clearstone up 2’, another run of socked drain tile, and clear stone the rest of the way to 6” below the wood sill (top of insulation). The clearstone will be 18-24” wide with filter fabric between the clearstone and ground.


@wallysheata, I poked around there and am not finding a whole lot of what I’m looking for specifically and a whole lot of smoke rolling out the ears information for literally everything :laughing: I’ll have to dig around that website when it’s slow at work for future projects.


Can anyone verify that the current plan makes sense? Cheaper products? Better products? Cut back on the width of clearstone?
 

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What you need is a rich neighbor. When I built my house the water table was at 3 1/2’ Rich dude bought the farm next door and wanted 10’ deep foundation walls on his McMansion. I talked to him about the water table and he just shrugged his shoulders and said, I’ll fix that.
I thought, how the hell is gonna do that? He brought in a big ass excavator and dug down 14’ and put in a 10” drain line. Ran it to a hollow. My god the water poured out of that thing. Dropped the ground water level in the whole neighborhood. I wouldn’t have believed it if I hadn’t seen it.
 

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Discussion Starter #34
At least its block. That's surprising if it really is a 100+ year old house. Everything that old here has minerock foundations.


The house was put on a block wall foundation in the 50’s. House uses all actual lumber and the deed states pre 1900, so I don’t actually have a clue how old the house is. My last house was built in 1932 and the only reason I know that is because when I gutted it I found the original recipe in the plaster when they put the walls up.
 

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Discussion Starter #35
What you need is a rich neighbor. When I built my house the water table was at 3 1/2’ Rich dude bought the farm next door and wanted 10’ deep foundation walls on his McMansion. I talked to him about the water table and he just shrugged his shoulders and said, I’ll fix that.
I thought, how the hell is gonna do that? He brought in a big ass excavator and dug down 14’ and put in a 10” drain line. Ran it to a hollow. My god the water poured out of that thing. Dropped the ground water level in the whole neighborhood. I wouldn’t have believed it if I hadn’t seen it.


I’m surrounded by 1500+ acres of field and my only neighbors are penny pinchers. Maybe when the old hag down the hill from me finally dies someone rich will move there (assuming I don’t buy her property).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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To save money on your plan, use a bitchithane membrane instead of fluid applied, except where needed at footing etc. most brands have a sheet and fluid applied variant that are comatoble
 

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Discussion Starter #37 (Edited)
To save money on your plan, use a bitchithane membrane instead of fluid applied, except where needed at footing etc. most brands have a sheet and fluid applied variant that are comatoble
I looked into that too, but after finding this: http://www.appliedtechnologies.com/home/diy_foundation_waterproofing.html I don't see saving much more money than just spraying this on ($793 versus $3600). However, I did put some emails out asking for quotes for https://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdfImages/bc/bccf4c6f-71e3-4dc8-bbfa-f6611ef76a8d.pdf.

I also talked to a few contactors that said 18-24" of clearstone is ridiculous and 12" is more than enough.

There's also mixed feelings on the dimpled membrane. There's been a few contractors saying it's not needed, but it won't hurt anything. The rigid insulation board with taped seams will do the job of keeping any water pressure off the sprayed membrane on the block foundation, so really all that's needed is something to protect the foam board. So I'm on the fence about that now, however I like the idea of the dimples allowing water to drain, but I'm not sure how that'll hold up to the weight of the clearstone and fille pushing against it. I don't see there being much of a standoff left.
 

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Discussion Starter #38 (Edited)
Just thought I'd update the thread a bit seeing as how I'm on the tail end of this project.

First things first, there weren't any footers so I didn't have a seam between that and the walls to seal.

IMG_2403.jpg

The foundation ended up being 2 rows of cinder block with a single row of cinder block stacked on top (this is what the house actually sits on) and the outer row of block was spackled over. Due to this I could not use a membrane wrap as that 4" ledge would have cut the membrane.

IMG_2402.jpg

What I did was cut the insulation board at the same height as the top of the double wall foundation.

IMG_2431.jpg

The plan is to clean off that failed mortar on the 4" ledge and bend up some flashings to go over the ledge and over the face of that below grade insulation. There will be insulation over that ledge (under the flashing) and insulation against the single wall foundation (over the face of the flashing. That should keep the water from getting in through that ledge. The exposed insulation will be spackled over within the next month as well.

We dug 6" below the level of the foundation walls and found 4" drain tile that was set on 2-3 of clear stone and back filled with solid clay. The drain tile made a complete circle around the house, no drain field.

What replaced that was 6" socked drain tile just below the foundation sitting on 6" of clear stone with a 1/2" drop every 10' making its way to a drain field that's just less than 300' away with a 1' drop every 12'. The drain field is 10' squared and also full of clear stone. By the drain tile, there's 2' square of clear stone, then 6" of clear against the wall until just a few feet below grade. The rest is all fill. That alone should alleviate any water concerns just having that additional space for water to congregate.

The "dirt" we were digging up was solid clay. This could have been tossed in an oven and turned to brick. There was zero drainage anywhere. We ended up getting 4" of rain in 2 days while the trenches were all open and the drain field filled up to 4' high and hasn't dropped at all in the 4 days since it rained last.

The last things left are to install the egress window

IMG_2432.jpg

And fill the drain field. I have a 12" diameter pipe going into the center of the drain field 2' above the bottom where a sump pump will be triggered to pump once the drain field hits 6' of water.

Just a quick update, but there's a few more "huh, WTF is that"'s to show.

Moral of the story: Don't trust inspectors (I paid 7 different inspectors in 7 different fields to verify the condition of the house), don't buy used/old houses if you give a shit what you live in, and build new at all costs being your own general contractor.
 

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Discussion Starter #40
Nice update. Was there any sealing of the wall before the insulation board?


Thanks.

Nope. The outer wall was already spackled and the water wasn’t coming through the wall itself so I didn’t waste my time or money on that. As I see it the only thing I could do is remove the ability for water to enter through that unprotected 4” ledge and remove the water from around the house as quickly as possible while also providing a large available space for water to congregate before flowing downhill.

I’m hoping to get the flashing done this weekend and we’re suppose to get hammered with rain Sunday so that should prove its effectiveness. Or lack thereof :D
 
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