Frame Notching...

1507 Views 45 Replies 9 Participants Last post by Big Rich, Jan 9, 2008

TJMagoo

Discussion Starter · Nov 29, 2007

Yay - my first issue to tackle

I received an email from a fellow stock modified competitor about notching his frame. Here is the email:

I posted up on the WE-ROCK forum back in October regarding notching the frame in order to clear my rear shocks and Big replied that it is allowed much to his dismay and listed some other changes. Dustin then responded not to take this to heart until the Advisory Board made a decision. I notched my frame based on what I saw at Jellico back in June. I remember seeing a couple of Stock Mod rigs with the frames notched one in particular was Eric Miller's. What is the rule on this?

As far as I know and have ever read in the rules frame notching for the stock rigs was not allowed. But for some reason, I think toward the end of this year, it was allowed to allow for coil overs. Is this correct?

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21 - 40 of 46 Posts

SuperRanger

· #21 · Dec 4, 2007

I also don't think stock frames should be allowed to be notched. It is only allowed in the pro-mod class under specific circumstances.

Jeepspeed has found a way to make this work, maybe look at how they wrote thier rule... Of course that doesn't help if the problem is already occuring. Will hte teams outside this rule fix thier vehicles or fight?

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TJMagoo

Discussion Starter · #22 · Dec 4, 2007

That's what I am wondering too. What about the existing stock mod rigs who already have this done. I think they'll try and fight it.

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Lil' Rich

· #23 · Dec 5, 2007

Another question would be, "Is there a point in time where Class Integrity is damaged and needs to be fixed, even though few might be upset?"

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TJMagoo

Discussion Starter · #24 · Dec 19, 2007

Ok this topic officially sucks.

I posted this to the other competitors and the responses are all over the board. I have new competitors saying they did this to their rig already because they saw it in the rules it was allowed. Then I have past competitors that are stating this is not allowed and should not be allowed.

So now should I handle this?

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Big Rich

· #25 · Dec 19, 2007

TJMagoo said:
Ok this topic officially sucks.

I posted this to the other competitors and the responses are all over the board. I have new competitors saying they did this to their rig already because they saw it in the rules it was allowed. Then I have past competitors that are stating this is not allowed and should not be allowed.

So now should I handle this?

So far there is only one rig from last year that was set up with this in question, and it was with the clayton off road kit.

We have re-wrote the rule to fit what we would like to do, I will post as an example shortly...

Big

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RedBullJeep

· #26 · Dec 19, 2007

Big Rich said:
We have re-wrote the rule to fit what we would like to do,

A clarification...not what we would LIKE to do, but instead, "a possible solution if it turns out that we all agree a form of notching needs to now be allowed."

Plain and simple, this is a group decision and what we wrote yesterday and are fine tuning now, is just a solution put together in advance, should this panel decide we need to allow a form of notching for off-the-shelf kits.

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TJMagoo

Discussion Starter · #27 · Dec 26, 2007

Basically a summary - everyone who competed this year is saying it should be kept no frame notching to keep the class as close to a stock mod vehicle. Why this is now 3 pages deep is the potential new competitors arguing why we should allow it - because they came to a few events this year and saw some rigs that their frame was notched.

I am going to make a post of some quotes from that thread so you guys can see the debate. I personally think frame notching should not be allowed. If we want to keep this class as a stock modified with the goal keeping the rigs as close to the stock, factory specs, then notching the frame should not be allowed.

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TJMagoo

Discussion Starter · #28 · Dec 26, 2007

Below are some direct quotes from the thread I have going on about the stock mods and frame notching. All names have been left off - I hope this is ok.

I think the STOCK-mods should keep as many stock parts/dimensions as possible. It makes it more of a driver class.

As far as the rules go you can not notch or modify the frame rails in any way. But you can modify the cross members. So 45in the frame rail is not supposed to be legal either. I no there are rigs out there that have done both and Weroc won't do anything about it until someone protests. If we want to professonalize this sport we should have to stick to the rules and a Tech inspection should be a tech inspection. So if they let others get away with breaking rules they should just delete that rule.

While I was judging at Jellico in June I saw at least 2 Mod Stock rigs with the rear frames notched to clear the shocks. I then looked at the rules and didn't see anything stating you couldn't notch the frame so when I built my Mod Stock rig for next season I notched it. I will await the decision of the Advisory Council and then decide what direction to go after that. If it isn't allowed, my options are to redo my rig for Pro Mod or run XRRA.

The only reason I can see that would allow notching of the frame would be for a readily available bolt on suspension. I'm not 100% sure, but doesn't the Clayton kit call for that to relocate the shocks? It might be only for the stretch kit, I'm not sure.

According to a post on the WEROCK Forum air shocks and coilover shocks are ok by themselves as long as you don't cut through the tub per Big and Lil' Rich.

I think that should be perfectly fine sence a normal shock doesnt suspend the vehical. Same thing with cutting the tub in the back to put coilovers but without the springs. So that should all be under the same rule.

I think the rule should be modified to read just like the coil/supporting weight/body rule(which itself needs clarified). Any weight support suspension component(leaf spring, coils, air shock, coil over, etc) cannot be mounted in a way that requires frame or body modifications. Any non weight supporting suspension component(shocks) may pass threw the body and also threw the frame. Frame modifications cannot effect the overall length of the frame and must retain at a minimum the original width of the modified area.

Don't make this too difficult, use an oem frame, do good fabrication on it and you will be fine. Frame notching can weeken the frame if not done proberly (none of what I have seen above looks to be a strength problem but I don't make the call) and allows suspension systems that would not be possible with a stock frame. Remember "STOCK MOD". IF you can find a creative way to work within the rules go ahead, and while building talk to the Riches A LOT. It will help you not have to do a bunch of rework. Big spent an hour with me one night going over my rig and figuring out what I needed to do to be legal.

Allowing notches opens up a real gray area that is hard to police. If one person makes a notch that is only 2" long to go around a shock what if another uses a notch running from the firewall forward to the bumper saying it is to clear the motor? It could be that the 'notch' was really intended to lighten the rig up and it may even be stronger than the factory frame, but you see where this is going. You need to keep the rules as black and white as possible.

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RedBullJeep

· #29 · Dec 26, 2007

Kelly, how many frames are notched right now, and why did they notch? Not as in WHY (because others did it), but as in, "I notched my frame because I have a Clayton kit.", or, "I notched my frame to clear a non-supporting shock." or, "I notched my frame to clear my track-bar."

Can you ask this question on the forum please?

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Jason Paule

· #30 · Dec 27, 2007

Without being in this class Ive probably missed some of the inner workings of issues that have came up. I think the words (intent of the class) are going to have to be used alot! Ive been thinking of this rule for a while and its a hard one. "stock length frames" does this mean no bobbed Toys? Does notching frame have to do with shackles through it? This rule might be the hardest one to write!!! My first comp jeep fits the "intent of the class" except my rear leafs were frenched into the frame. But should be allowed way before a fully linked coil kit on a CJ. My opinion on "INTENT". Reason being -using stock style suspension, just modified!

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RedBullJeep

· #31 · Dec 27, 2007

Let's face it, the TJ that you guys built for Brian and Joachem was perfectly to the rules and really, fit the goals of the class perfectly.

4.14: Frame
W.E.Rock considers the frame of a vehicle to be the two rails supporting the mounting of the body
and drive train as the main frame, and connecting cross members as the sub frame.
The following are frame guidelines for competition:
4.14.1: All OEM Frames are approved. All frames must meet OEM configuration.
4.14.2: Frame reinforcement is approved.
4.14.3: Replacement frames built by commercial manufacturers and available on the market as
W.E.Rock must approve a promoted product.
4.14.5: The mainframe must be made of boxed or semi-boxed magnetic steel.
4.14.6: No full or partial round tube mainframe rails.

Hey Rich, No where in the rules does it say you can cut the frame. Are the rules up now, the same rules as last year??? Those framerails that were notched this year were illegal if you read the second sentance of this: 4.14.1: All OEM Frames are approved. All frames must meet OEM configuration.

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Big Rich

· #32 · Dec 27, 2007

RedBullJeep said:
Let's face it, the TJ that you guys built for Brian and Joachem was perfectly to the rules and really, fit the goals of the class perfectly.

4.14: Frame
W.E.Rock considers the frame of a vehicle to be the two rails supporting the mounting of the body
and drive train as the main frame, and connecting cross members as the sub frame.
The following are frame guidelines for competition:
4.14.1: All OEM Frames are approved. All frames must meet OEM configuration.
4.14.2: Frame reinforcement is approved.
4.14.3: Replacement frames built by commercial manufacturers and available on the market as
W.E.Rock must approve a promoted product.
4.14.5: The mainframe must be made of boxed or semi-boxed magnetic steel.
4.14.6: No full or partial round tube mainframe rails.

Hey Rich, No where in the rules does it say you can cut the frame. Are the rules up now, the same rules as last year??? Those framerails that were notched this year were illegal if you read the second sentance of this: 4.14.1: All OEM Frames are approved. All frames must meet OEM configuration.

Yes the rules up now are the same as all of 2007 as posted for the entire 2007 season, Little can give us a date when they were posted.....

Big

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TJMagoo

Discussion Starter · #33 · Dec 27, 2007

I asked the question about how many were notched now and why etc and below are 2 answers I received back about it:

Two people said this:

I'm not notched yet but would like to. I want to notch to clear my shocks in the rear. I can run a longer travel shock and get away from the stock mount which I have a habit of ripping out. I still run coils in the stock buckets.

We could notch a piece of our frame to clear our front links. It would save us from building a whole new front axle to make it work which we are in the process of doing.I agree the overall length of the frame should remain unchanged though.

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Lil' Rich

· #34 · Dec 27, 2007

Here are some of the rules on the website, 12/27/2007 is the date last modified...

I brought several rules up here to answer some other questions like Jason's

4.6.9 is in regards to bobbing vehicles

W.E.ROCK Rulebook said:
4.6: Tub/Cab
4.6.9: The back of the tub/cab may be trimmed horizontally to match the rocker height. A
minimum distance of 24” from the center of the axle to the back of the body must be maintained
on bobbed vehicles. Trucks with non-convertible tops must retain the OEM appearance of having
a roof.

4.14: Frame
W.E.Rock considers the frame of a vehicle to be the two rails supporting the mounting of the body
and drive train as the main frame, and connecting cross members as the sub frame.
The following are frame guidelines for competition:
4.14.1: All OEM Frames are approved. All frames must meet OEM configuration.
4.14.2: Frame reinforcement is approved.
4.14.3: Replacement frames built by commercial manufacturers and available on the market as
W.E.Rock must approve a promoted product.
4.14.5: The mainframe must be made of boxed or semi-boxed magnetic steel.
4.14.6: No full or partial round tube mainframe rails.

4.20: Suspension
The following are suspension guidelines for competition:
4.20.1: Reactive suspension systems are approved.
4.20.2: Manual suspension controls are not approved in this class, except for he use of a front or
rear winch.
4.20.3: Suspension pivot points, connecting points must be free of cracks and in good physical
condition as determined by a W.E.Rock official.
4.20.4: OEM wheelbase measurements may be altered plus or minus 3”. Wheelbase may not be
changed during or between obstacles.
4.20.5: Coils independent of another suspension items (including shocks), must be able to
maintain the vehicle ride height.

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TJMagoo

Discussion Starter · #35 · Dec 28, 2007

I have received a few more replies about this:

Mine is notched using the Poly Performance rear shock mounts running Walker Evans Air Shocks.

Mine is notched for my rear shocks to mount to since we run a speed series also much safer and stronger no chance of ripping out shocks from stock tub mounting location. coils in stock location and no frame length added or shortend in our rig.

My frame is not notched, i dont see a need to notch a jeep frame unless you want to run air shocks which i think should not be allowed in the mod-stock class. If you want to run taller shocks then cut the tub. If you tear off stock shock mounts which i have done, then build a stronger shock mount.

- 3 replies after this was said agree with it.

Thoughts? I think we really need to come up with an answer here and resolve this debate.

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Big Rich

· #36 · Dec 28, 2007

I suggest we vote on this subject....

I vote we do not allow notching in the modified stock class

Big

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RedBullJeep

· #37 · Dec 28, 2007

Panel members, you can see that thread...we cannot. I'd like to hear your overall opinion on this. Personally, I'd rather see the rule without notches to keep people from pushing further and further and us having to constantly re-define the rules. Also, this will create a mess for our feeder series events who are wanting to be closer to our rules, but have many street stock vehicles competing, and getting this far out of whack will put a bigger seperation between us and them. Finally, if people want to begin tearing into frames and bodies and really going for it, then there is always Pro Mod. We need to keep this entry level. That's my opinion but really, if the panel puts together one that differes, I'll stand behind you.

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Lil' Rich

· #38 · Dec 28, 2007

I am in agreement that No notching should be allowed for the same reason that Dustin stated. Let's keep the stock class STOCK. Also, think about this, teams are not allowed to even notch their frame in the Pro Modified Class... Why let it fly in a class that is built to be the ultimate entry level division...

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TJMagoo

Discussion Starter · #39 · Dec 28, 2007

I also agree - no frame notching in the stock modified class.

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TJMagoo

Discussion Starter · #40 · Jan 2, 2008

So what is the final word on this matter? I have competitors beating down my door waiting for this answer. Is there anything more I need to do on this from my end?

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