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Discussion Starter #81
We last saw our hero rescueing a damsel in distress...

Oh ~ sorry, wrong alter-ego:shaking:

Well it was time to center the axle under the frame and install the rear upper links. Normally they are tapped 1.75 x .281" DOM ~ this time they're 1.75" DOM with weld-in bungs to save weight.


Couple more vies.



Then we were robbed.

(no rear frame)

After confirming the truss was centered and such, we gusseted it back to the housing. The nice thing about Ford 9-inch axles is that they're steel, so you can weld to any part of them.


Gussets from the truss to the top of the tube via bumper drops.


Top trussing done.
 

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Discussion Starter #82
A bit ago, Tom told me a story about a string ~ push the string, pull the string ~ Something about a string. We started the conversation with trussing and how he wanted the bottom of the axle trussed so I figured the string was a medifor (sp) for life and family.

With that, we put the axle on its lid


Broke out some long cardboard.


Made pictures with chalk ~ (Ahem...soapstone)

The metal used was 2x3 box (3/16" thick) what we use for our Signature Sliders. It seemed to be in supply, and more importantly fit the contour we were trying to gusset.

So with a little bit of cutting with the plasma, some grinding with a well-used flapper wheel, and a whole lot of dust and patience.


Then more of the same...

I'm telling you folks. With all the consumables I've been using on this beast, I wouldn't be surprised at all if I used well over $100 in JUST consumables ~ you know, cut-off wheels, plasma tips/electrodes, welding tips, grinding wheels, flapper wheels, and sanding wheels. Luckily, the wire brush seems to be holding up like a champ. Its almost like they're made of metal! :confused:

Then after what seemed to be an eternity of welding, then letting it cool, then welding, the letting it cool, then....well, you get the picture. The axle assembly wieghed in at close to a billion pounds, but was ready to be put back into the chassis.

From the back


Side(ish)


Back on the jackstands.


Ok Tom. We need a few things here. I need some measurements. I want to know how much room (in inches please) between your current frame rail (bottom of) and the axle (top of). Since we are going with 35s on this beast, and you currently run 31s, lets figure out how much room you want. Please, include what you currently have, and what you want.

Second, I'm going to need to mock up the steering so I need knuckles, spindles (have them), wheelbearings and hubs (if possible) so I can put this thing together. I want to set up the trackbar up front AND the HySteer ~ getting that finalized.

I'd also like to get some 35s (most likely from a local guy) so that I can put the front fenders/clip on and mock up the engine cage and fender mounts/tabs as well ~ wouldn't want to trim the fenders wrong or put a piece of tube where the tires are going to be.

I will also be needing some quarterpanels to mock up the rear tube work. As you can see, the rear frame is gone. I may be loosing more of it, but I didn't want to cut before the crossmember until I made another to make sure nothing moves.

Sidenotes:
1) Cutting the rear frame off was great, lots of room to move in the shop (spelled 'g-a-r-a-g-e') now.

2) Please also note that while I was working on the rear axle, Tom was out having fun 'racing' (you have to picture me making quotation marks with my fingers while you say 'racing' ~ it adds an element of sarcasm that wouldn't be there otherwise ~ of course, I'm just poking fun at Tom ~ but still, get the full effect and imagine it). :laughing:

3) Also notice that the garage was open with daylight making pictures hard at first, and now the door is closed, its snowing and there is no sign of daylight outside the garage-door windows. Just another Saturday at the Grihalva home.
 

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Great picture. Nothing like beating a rig and capuring it on video/camera. You seem to have a knack of capturing that angle makes me think ~ 'we'll need more tubing'. Can't amagine what got you in that position, but link me the video when you get the chance ~ I wanna see!
There was supposed to be an S turn at that point in the course, but they didn't mark it as such, it was marked "wide" - so you could zig zag around a large berm/hill/ride or you could just pin it and go straight up n' over, which was the faster line. :D

That picture was taken from a higher vantage point, looking down a bit onto the Scout, to give you a better idea of how leaned-to-the-driver's-side it was. Good thing I had poor Steve in the #2 seat for ballast. :D

Your up against a 460 with an IH304? Holy crap man, time to get that 392 built! It may not rev as high as the 304 but it'll build power sooner.
I do OK in the obstacle race. IIRC I was 48sec, and the 460 Class 8 was a little under that.

But when you talk about a 20 minute event and a chance to really feel out the course, it's hard to keep up.

Dude I hate that. When I borrow stuff, if it breaks, I take care of it. People who don't make me mad. My buddy barrowed my trailer once and brought it back with no wiring ~ turns out he didn't make sure the wirirng wasn't rubbing the ground while in motion and the whole thing got trashed. I made him replace it ~ never was 100% after that.
One equalizer was destroyed.. and while I was in there, found the spring bushings were overdue for replacement all around.. still need to do two bushings before I'm done.

Then some planned upgrades start next week with a stronger tongue, break-away kit, finally hard-wiring the winch, and a receiver hitch on the back of the trailer along with a rewire to 7-pin connectors.

Moving the motor back as much as we are should push allot of wieght to what is currently looking like a weight-free rear end. Not sure how much to put back there but I'm thinking the front should be a little heavier but not much.
The extra WB should allow the fuel cell to be put between the axles, too.

I believe the technical term we're talking around is polar-moment-of-inertia.

There are actually a few desert guys that prefer to push the weight out to the edges. It's a preference thing, I think. Some prefer the center-mass, some prefer the ends.

Where would you put the transfercase and how would you deal with the short rear driveshaft?
Speaking of.. got that engine mocked up yet? What do the driveshaft lengths look like? :D
 

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A bit ago, Tom told me a story about a string ~ push the string, pull the string ~ Something about a string.
Point of that discussion, for those following along at home, was that an under-axle truss can be both stronger and lighter than ANY over-the-axle truss, because when you try to bend the axle, you're trying to stretch the "string" (steel truss) lengthwise, and it doesn't really want to do that (note how there used to be kits for a "cable truss" that was under-the-axle on a SII and others).

When you put the same design on top, you MUST affix the truss at many locations to the axle tube, because when the axle wants to bend, the "string" will just buckle / push outward and provides little to no strength.

You can fix that by using a stronger 'string' and putting in more stand-offs, but you're adding weight at the same time.

Then after what seemed to be an eternity of welding, then letting it cool, then welding, the letting it cool, then....well, you get the picture. The axle assembly wieghed in at close to a billion pounds, but was ready to be put back into the chassis.

From the back
Any thought on a rear-truss to keep it from bending when I hit a tree-stump? Or do you think we don't need to add any more weight to the boat-anchor? :D

Ok Tom. We need a few things here. I need some measurements. I want to know how much room (in inches please) between your current frame rail (bottom of) and the axle (top of). Since we are going with 35s on this beast, and you currently run 31s, lets figure out how much room you want. Please, include what you currently have, and what you want.
I'm not as concerned about belly-clearance or axle-to-frame clearance as I am about travel ratios ( whaddyall think, 60% up, 40% down, or 40/60?) and even more importantly how that relates to the driveshaft.

We should aim for a ~15deg driveshaft angle at ride height, to maximize U-joint longevity, and 25-30deg at full droop. With driveshaft lengths in hand, I can work the trig backward to get where we should be and then massage it a little.

I suspect it'll have a little stink-bug look to it, with the nose a little higher than the rear, but maybe not.

Also a factor is what the squat/anti-squat figures are at various ride-heights with your link setups.

I'll see about some measurements off the current car, tho'.

Second, I'm going to need to mock up the steering so I need knuckles, spindles (have them), wheelbearings and hubs (if possible) so I can put this
Knuckles shipped on Friday.

I may be loosing more of it, but I didn't want to cut before the crossmember until I made another to make sure nothing moves.
Definitely a good plan. No need to remove it until we're sure everything is triangulated up and square.

2) Please also note that while I was working on the rear axle, Tom was out having fun 'racing' (you have to picture me making quotation marks with my fingers while you say 'racing' ~ it adds an element of sarcasm that wouldn't be there otherwise ~ of course, I'm just poking fun at Tom ~ but still, get the full effect and imagine it). :laughing:
Hey now, let's also note how little I slept the last week or three getting the old car put back together so I could keep campaigning.

Blair came up and gave me a hand Friday night.. we hit the sack around 1am, then up before 7 to finish loading up, eat, and take off for the race.

I'm still a bit stiff n' sore today from all of the "fun" :D

3) Also notice that the garage was open with daylight making pictures hard at first, and now the door is closed, its snowing and there is no sign of daylight outside the garage-door windows. Just another Saturday at the Grihalva home.
When it started snowing yesterday, I decided to skip washing the Scout and save that for another day..
 

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I didn't know that Tom was using me as ballast but now that I think about it, all the puzzle pieces are coming together...
Exhibit A: Tom has a forced air helmet with tear offs on the visor and I get the helmet that the visor doesn't even close. Proof that he does not care if I am able to see the race and am therefore ballast.
Exhibit B: The drivers seat is mounted higher than the passenger allowing for better visibility. Proof once again that the passenger is not there for watching the race, but for providing low center of gravity weight.
Exhibit C: The battery is mounted directly under one of the feet of the passenger causing the passenger to be more concerned with putting the 3" of protruding bolt through his or her calf than with the race going on. Proof that he has little to no concern of the safety of the ballast...er...passenger as long as the weight stays the same.

Seriously though it is a blast to ride in the current scout and I can't wait to ride in the new race scout.
 

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I didn't know that Tom was using me as ballast but now that I think about it, all the puzzle pieces are coming together...
Exhibit A: Tom has a forced air helmet with tear offs on the visor and I get the helmet that the visor doesn't even close. Proof that he does not care if I am able to see the race and am therefore ballast.
Exhibit B: The drivers seat is mounted higher than the passenger allowing for better visibility. Proof once again that the passenger is not there for watching the race, but for providing low center of gravity weight.
Exhibit C: The battery is mounted directly under one of the feet of the passenger causing the passenger to be more concerned with putting the 3" of protruding bolt through his or her calf than with the race going on. Proof that he has little to no concern of the safety of the ballast...er...passenger as long as the weight stays the same.

Seriously though it is a blast to ride in the current scout and I can't wait to ride in the new race scout.
Try and get him into desert racing. Then your a needed asset. Nothing like barking out turn directions, MPH readings, gauge status, and general comments. Then when something goes wrong its your fault too. See, he would really need you then.:p
 

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Try and get him into desert racing. Then your a needed asset. Nothing like barking out turn directions, MPH readings, gauge status, and general comments. Then when something goes wrong its your fault too. See, he would really need you then.:p
Tom may or may not have some difficulty distinguishing between the red, yellow and green flags they use to control the race, so even in the small course in Cascade a co-pilot can be helpful. I think that the new truck will have gauges centrally mounted so that the passenger can monitor the truck as well, and there is talk of in helmet radios as well.

I believe that most of the desert trucks give the driver a tach and the co-pilot is responsible for the rest of the gauges, but I don't think that Tom will always have ballast (co-pilots) to get in the truck with him.
 

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Discussion Starter #91
Point of that discussion, ...."string"...."string"....stronger 'string'....
See, something about a string ;)

Any thought on a rear-truss to keep it from bending when I hit a tree-stump? Or do you think we don't need to add any more weight to the boat-anchor? :D
Its a boat anchor because I was lifting it, attached to the links, with one hand as I slid the jackstand underneath. As of now, I'm thinking about a rear truss. I'd like to ~ but I'm not going to lie, building that axle Friday afternoon, and was the only thing I did on Saturday ~ so it wasn't going to happen then :crybaby:

I'm not as concerned about belly-clearance or axle-to-frame clearance as I am about travel ratios ( whaddyall think, 60% up, 40% down, or 40/60?) and even more importantly how that relates to the driveshaft.
I think you are right about the trans clearance. Don't want uptravel where we can't use it.

I suspect it'll have a little stink-bug look to it, with the nose a little higher than the rear, but maybe not.
I hear its all the rage.

Also a factor is what the squat/anti-squat figures are at various ride-heights with your link setups.
You're going to kill me, but I didn't run them. Last time I ran them ~ was on Rusty. Had over 100% antisquat all the time, but it varied depending on how high I actually made it. I think I ended up with somewhere in the 117% anti-squat ~ its somewhere in Rusty's build. Anyway, it was near identicle to a comp buggy I found here so I was satified.

The following will probably piss a few people off, but hey, until I'm proved otherwise, its my thoughts on the matter.

I designed the 4-link before all the AS/IC crap was a big deal. I remember a conversation between Led and a fellow XJ buggy at the Best-of-the-West outing in AZ in Feb 2005. The guy just went through his 4-link design siting numbers and why his hole placements (what hole he used in the pre-fab 3-hole wonder-brackets) was the best setup with numbers rattling off. He then looked at me and Led and asked ~ what do your numbers look like ~ the answer came from Led. "Numbers?" he said with a surprise, "Those are only important on Pirate."

I'm well aware that AS and IC have been around long before I've been doing these 4-links ~ but at the time I designed my system, they were not house-hold names as they are now ~ most people were happy just to see that 4-link done. Now my customers and I have done some rude calculations with various downloadable programs and such here that put our systems REALLY close to what people on this board have said was ideal, but at the same time I'm fully aware that the calculations vary a bit if you load up your scout, or lift it more than whatever scout was measured in the first place.

I'm NOT saying that AS and all that crap is not important ~ nor am I saying it should be ignored. But frankly, I've done several 4-links on several makes and models being used as 100% crawlers and street driven weekend warriors ~ and frankly despite the lack of exact numbers backing my design, the system has never failed to give PERFORMANCE where it was needed.

Tom will be one of the first actual RACE applications where hard acceleration will be a common occurance. Am I worried? Not in the slightest. After driving P3, Rusty, and more recently Evo ~ I know that the system works in a WIDE variety of situations, and I look forward to seeing it prove itself once again.

Knuckles shipped on Friday.
Cool.

Definitely a good plan. No need to remove it until we're sure everything is triangulated up and square.
Exactly.
 

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See, something about a string ;)



I designed the 4-link before all the AS/IC crap was a big deal. "Those are only important on Pirate."
Being from the "let's try this" school, I worked with the calculator on my rear 4-link and ended up with a lot of number I certanily didn't understand. If I think back, I got a lot of different definitions on AS/IC etc here and on other boards as well.

That being said, I have have 3 adjustable positions on my upper link frame mounts, and there is a significant change between the preformance in the 3 link positions.

I would absolutely include this adjustment on my next set up, then I can set the AS just where I like it, regardless what the numbers say.
 

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So I guess Tom wants me to mount the driver seat higher than the passenger seat ~ Thats helpful seeing that the seat mounts are next on the cage. :D :D
For the record, the passenger seat sits lower because it can - passenger doesn't *really* need to see, and it's that much extra room between their noggin' and the ground when it goes over. For that matter, the passenger seat was a long-after-thought.. long after the battery was mounted, too. :)

And Steve did help me out last year.. "Why are you stopped?" "The spotter is waving a red flag" "No, that's GREEN for GO!" "D'oh!!"

I think you are right about the trans clearance. Don't want uptravel where we can't use it.
Hmm.. anyone here want to tell me how great and/or how expensive it's going to be to run a 2-piece front shaft? Run a straight shot forward from the Dana 20 to just in front of the 727, then a carrier bearing and a CV joint?

Still need to jack the engine up a little (or at least, not lower it) so that the carrier bearing is near where the front output is supposed to be, relative to the radius arms up front.

The following will probably piss a few people off, but hey, until I'm proved otherwise, its my thoughts on the matter.

Tom will be one of the first actual RACE applications where hard acceleration will be a common occurance. Am I worried? Not in the slightest. After driving P3, Rusty, and more recently Evo ~ I know that the system works in a WIDE variety of situations, and I look forward to seeing it prove itself once again.
I don't believe the "numbers" are the be-all/end-all, but I do believe they can help us make decisions, and to quantify changes to the geometry. You can use the numbers to explain WHY, if you move the upper mount point to the second set of holes, you get THIS result, and maybe it'll clue you in that another inch of change will move things further in the intended direction to get some desired result.

I also know the desert guys scoff at the "crawler" folks with the "throw it together, run it, and see what ya think" suspensions - and that for the high-dollar crowd, these suspension numbers ARE important and DO mean stuff to 'em. I'm not competing at the level where a few % of AS will mean the difference between winning and losing, but there are folks out there that it would mean the difference.

CORR or WSORR's Pro-2/Pro-4 classes would be a good example where being off a few points could very well mean a loss. Not unlike NASCAR in that regard.

Fortunately, I'm putting a Scout up against Early Broncos, late TTB Broncos, solid axle big-broncos, short-box pickups, Blazers, CJs, XJs, Dodge pickups, Subaru wagons... at least, when I don't wander too far from home.
 

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Subaru wagons...
For real? I've seen those things go forever and make it through some pretty gnarly stuff, but I hope your scout is coming out on top when you are racing the suby's!

As far as numbers go, I will admit I don't know squat :flipoff2: But I think Tom raises a good point, it gives you a reference point and insight into where you need to go, and how to adjust.
Maybe this is the next step in refining the D&C 4-link. Sure it has worked so far, but building in some adjustment, particularly on a race car, seems appropriate. Again, I'm just a casual observer, but if I ever make it to a race, and Tom needs some ballast, I want the ride to be from the front of the pack, so anything that will help get him there should be considered.
 

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For real? I've seen those things go forever and make it through some pretty gnarly stuff, but I hope your scout is coming out on top when you are racing the suby's!

As far as numbers go, I will admit I don't know squat :flipoff2: But I think Tom raises a good point, it gives you a reference point and insight into where you need to go, and how to adjust.
Maybe this is the next step in refining the D&C 4-link. Sure it has worked so far, but building in some adjustment, particularly on a race car, seems appropriate. Again, I'm just a casual observer, but if I ever make it to a race, and Tom needs some ballast, I want the ride to be from the front of the pack, so anything that will help get him there should be considered.
As long as you don't drive, Tom will make it fine. :flipoff2:
 

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Looking good!:smokin:

Any word on what swaybars you guys want to use?
We've been talking about 'em, but I'm still anti-sway-bar-dumb.

Hey, wasn't Dan going to share some wisdom on anti-swaybars?

In the mean time, I need to read-up some more on the subject.
 

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We've been talking about 'em, but I'm still anti-sway-bar-dumb.

Hey, wasn't Dan going to share some wisdom on anti-swaybars?

In the mean time, I need to read-up some more on the subject.
Yeah, I need to talk to Dan anyway. If anything we can start in the middle(rate wise) or do some experimenting and go with two significantly different rates and switch them around front to back but that requires some testing. I do have steel arms here for when your ready. They are for the larger 1 1/4" sway bars.
________
Wiki vaporizer
 

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We've been talking about 'em, but I'm still anti-sway-bar-dumb.

Hey, wasn't Dan going to share some wisdom on anti-swaybars?

In the mean time, I need to read-up some more on the subject.
Who? Me?

All I know about sway bars is the bigger they are the stiffer they are.:D Then it comes down to material. For what your doing Tom(length of race, weight of rig, type of racing) I think the off the shelf 1 1/4 ones will be fine for you. The stuff I mentioned earlier in the thread was more for 800 hp, 36" wheel travel, 100+ mph, and needs to survive an entire 1000 mile race. I think with this fancy new car, your gonna have to do a lot more prep. Inspecting a lot more of the moving parts more often. Just ad sway bar to the list. Just make sure the bar is a 'standard'(lenght/size) piece so if you do break one it doesnt take 6 weeks to get a new one.
 

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Discussion Starter #100
I would absolutely include this adjustment on my next set up, then I can set the AS just where I like it, regardless what the numbers say.
I hear that. I'm not trying to say that the # are not important, but I think too many people put too much emphasis on them ~ maybe I put too little emphasis on them.
I don't believe the "numbers" are the be-all/end-all, but I do believe they can help us make decisions, and to quantify changes to the geometry. ....move things further in the intended direction to get some desired result.
There ya go.

For the record, the passenger seat sits lower because it can - passenger doesn't *really* need to see, and it's that much extra room between their noggin' and the ground when it goes over. For that matter, the passenger seat was a long-after-thought.. long after the battery was mounted, too. :)
Speaking of which ~ Can you give me a measurement from the bottom of your seat to the floors? I need to start mocking up the seating.

Looking good!:smokin:
Any word on what swaybars you guys want to use? ~ If anything we can start in the middle(rate wise) or do some experimenting and go with two significantly different rates and switch them around front to back but that requires some testing. I do have steel arms here for when your ready. They are for the larger 1 1/4" sway bars.
I just sent an email to Tom regarding that. I'd be happy to take whatcha got now. The steel arms, 1 1/4" bars would do just fine to start with. IF they don't work, or Tom wants less/more, we can always swap them out later. I'm quickly getting to the point where I'll need to mock something up so I know where to put the rest of the tube/stuff. So something is better than me guessing where to put stuff.

Who? Me?

All I know about sway bars is the bigger they are the stiffer they are.:D Then it comes down to material. For what your doing Tom(length of race, weight of rig, type of racing) I think the off the shelf 1 1/4 ones will be fine for you.
There you have it ~ the expert has spoken ~ SHIP IT!

I think with this fancy new car, your gonna have to do a lot more prep. Inspecting a lot more of the moving parts more often. Just ad sway bar to the list. Just make sure the bar is a 'standard'(lenght/size) piece so if you do break one it doesnt take 6 weeks to get a new one.
He's got a great point. I think that the new racer will need quite a bit of tweeking and adjusting as things get wore in ~ or Tom gets more crazy :D. Tweeking is always a natural part of a racer's life ~ expecially with an all new rig to thrash on. I do believe leaving things 'off the shelf' lengths will be benificial to the 'maintainance' aspect down the road.
 
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