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Discussion Starter #161
Ya, there is a couple little things, but that about covers it. The front end is back taken apart and getting prepped for axle placement and engine install. I'm going to have a little work-day on the racer with a couple of the RMB boys to stab the motor in, other than that we're finishing up the track bar & mounts, then the steering box. We'll need to get the engine in place before we mount the front shocks.

And yes, the rear axle should be at or higher at full stuff than a stock frame is normally.
 

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Discussion Starter #162
This was a mock-up shot of about where we think the IH Only North anti-sway bar (rear) will be mounted.
Yes, I don't like the swaybar going anywhere but down low. The problem is that we didn't expect such a big (dimensionally) gas tank. We may have covered this here, but ~ Paul, my helper, is a TIG welder and had permission to use the school's shop to build a custom cell that would fit in the lower area of the cage work. It would have held about 25ish gallons IIRC.

The only problem ~ it wouldn't meet racing requirements since it wouldn't have had a blatter. After some consideration to size, we ended up with this unit. To fit it as low as we could, we cut into some of the tube work and built a tray for it. As you can see ~ its a little higher than originally planned.

There is two ways to do this. We can simply weld the mount tube to the bottom of the chassis, or use a hole-saw and 'french' it into the lower fuel cell mount tubes. I'm definately not excited to do that, but it may give a cleaner look ~ besides not creating something that can get caught on high-points on the ground. But then again, it'll be above axle centerline, and this isn't a rock crawler....so....


Those are 16" Sway Away remote reservoirs, in a 2.5" diameter. Still needs the 3" extended lower eye installed and the coil-carrier equipment, which will take up some of the exposed shock shaft and put us at/near full bump.. with 16" of droop available, which translates to 20+" at the axle.
Tom hasn't decided to run the shocks in the front or rear mount holes yet. At full stuff, both locations have the same distance between the axle mounts and the cage mounts ~ so quite literally Tom could go with a forward mounted C/O and then go with a longer shock in the rear to help with the dampening duties.
Damian also sent one wide-angle shot.
cell tray a little more visable.
 

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Tom- you might want to look into www.securitylocknut.com . I build vibrating heavy equipment for rock quarries etc and its the only hardware that hold up. www.actionconveyors.com

I'm sure the hardware isn't cheap but if you just buy it for the problem areas, it might not be bad.
Thanks, Dan.

I've filled out their forms n' such and we'll see what they send back to me.

Looks like their fancy nuts work with standard bolts, too, so I won't even have to really change up my stocking methodology (if I have one).

Just need to standardize on some sizes and go from there if the pricing isn't too bad.

For now, I buy a lot of the "top-lock" nuts in 3/8" and 1/2" - and Red Loctite in the big jugs. :D
 

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Discussion Starter #164
Alright, just got done with some foot work. As you can see, we're putting 3" extended lower shock mounts on the C/Os. This will give use some lower-coil-trap to lower-swing-arm clearance and why we built the extra length between the mounts.

That brings me to the rear mounts ~ obviously they are the same collapsed distance apart as the front mounts. Turns out that the 18" threaded shocks (or 18" bypass shocks for that matter) are exactly 2" longer than the 16" c/o are collapsed.

This means, that if the coil-overs are mounted in the front hole, you can put 18" shocks (bypass or just normal shocks) in the second hole for additional dampening in the future. Plus, when you consider that the shocks are mounted closer to the pivot point, there could be a nice gain in total rear wheel travel.
 

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The only problem ~ it wouldn't meet racing requirements since it wouldn't have had a blatter.
I still need to add foam to the bladder, and all of the anti-roll vent hose routing n' such to be 100% legal.

Tom hasn't decided to run the shocks in the front or rear mount holes yet. At full stuff, both locations have the same distance between the axle mounts and the cage mounts ~ so quite literally Tom could go with a forward mounted C/O and then go with a longer shock in the rear to help with the dampening duties.
I haven't looked at my math figures yet, but I think the 16" c/o shocks go to the rear, and it was either 12" or 14" bypasses that could then go in the front (or another set of 2 or 2.5 non-bypass shocks just for extra damping).

I think the driveshaft is my problem, and putting the 16s in the forward holes (allowing an 18" bypass) would allow more down travel than the driveshaft (Hmmm.. Hi9?) would take, so it'd be sitting on the limit straps before the shock ran out anyhow. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #167
I think the driveshaft is my problem, and putting the 16s in the forward holes (allowing an 18" bypass) would allow more down travel than the driveshaft (Hmmm.. Hi9?) would take, so it'd be sitting on the limit straps before the shock ran out anyhow. ;)
I think it'd give the bypass more leverage as well. But my thoughts is get a better drive shaft! :p
 

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Discussion Starter #168
Official updates.

Originally, the plan was to build the fuel cell into the rear area we created like so (gray shaded area). This would have held about 30+ gallons and we even got Pauls welding teacher to give us permission to TIG it with the schools machines.

But the problem is ~ as with any racing org ~ you normally need a dual wall cell. In SCORE and related org's that Tom races in, having a rigid cell with an internal blatter is required, so this idea of an ultra cool alum. TIG cell was out since we couldn't find a good enough universal blatter for it.

That said, Tom and I talked and decided on this 32-gallon RCI cell. It has a blatter..and therefore will work.





Even got things labeled so even I can't screw it up! :laughing:


The cell is 18" x 25" and is 18" high. Massive yes, but it has capacity and even better ~ weight to the rear end.
 

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Discussion Starter #169
With the fuel cell issue settled and delivered, we needed to 'modify' our rear chage plans to fit the new cell. To do this we wanted to build a shelf for the new cell. Sure this isn't required, but having two layers of steel between it and the fast-moving ground makes me a little more at ease. So Paul started one out of 14-gauge steel.


The full lip will help keep things in place.


Installed. These boxes are misc parts Tom sent to finish up the interior and front axle (will be covered later).


Cell installed on shelf.

I don't have pictures of it, but to protect the cell from the ground, there is some more 2" tube that goes around the rear perimeter of the cell. This was do give plenty of support/protection.

Next we finished up some frame work. Before we didn't box in the stock frame to the tube work ~ so we took some plate and did just that.



This helped keep the rear tube work and frame rigid. What's interesting is without a motor ~ the chassis is now perfectly balanced between the front and back. Seriously, if you sat on the fuel cell, the chassis would do a wheelie on the rear jackstands (under the rear links).

Although Tom covered it in his catch-up post ~ which I think was more of a cow-prod to me to post pictures than anything (ZAP!) :eek: ~ We had to decide between two mounting locations for the IHOnlyNorth sway bar kit. At first, I wanted to and planned to mount it above the fuel cell, but with the fuel cell change, so did the plans for it.

As seen in this picture...

We could still mount the swaybar above the fuel cell. Paul is holding the arm so far above as if its in its compressed location ~ since the axle is also fully compressed. But that would mean the link between the sway bar and the axle would be way to long.

So we decided to put the mounts below the cell ~ in or around this location.

Normally this is NOT the place for a swaybar ~ since it can get banged on every rock and small car you happen to be driving over. But with a racer, things changed a bit. Tom shouldn't be driving over small cars, and this is no rockcrawler. Since this location is still at axle hieght, chances of it getting hit by something will be slim.
 

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Discussion Starter #170
After a brief conversation with Tom, the location of the sway bar was confirmed, and we built the mounts.

The kit did not come with the proper mounting tube for these bushings ~ Probably because we are using a bigger size swaybar for the racer than a normal Scout would need (The racer will need a higher strength torsion bar for the extremely high speeds and cornering it will see). Jeff cautioned us to make sure that we use a tube that the bushings aren't 'too loose' ~ as that would cause some slop, and premature/repeated/often failure of the bushings. So we took the bushings to my metal supplier and started playing with dail-calipers and different size tube. Turns out that the bushing has a 1 5/8" diameter (which means the tube we select will need that same size I.D.). We decided on 2" x 3/16" wall DOM tube.

The bushings for the sway-bar were pressed into the mounting tube.


Speaking of which. Here is the sway-bar kits Jeff sent us. A SPECIAL thanks to Jeff @ IHOnlyNorth for his support of this project. These kits are not cheap, and he's the only shop to support Tom's racer build with a full sponsership of his product. If you are having problems with too much body roll, give him a call at 916-652-4706 or stop by his website at: http://www.ihonlynorth.com. Jeff's swaybar kits will certainly help keep Tom's Scout sturdy around those high-speed turns.


With that, here's the other side w/ bushing pressed in.

Turns out that the DOM was just the ticket. The bushings needed to be tapped in with a rubber mallet and fit snug.

Jeff doesn't recommend trapping the sway bar's torsion bar in a tube as you see here.

The reason is that as it twists it'll distort and a tube that 'traps' it can interfere with its natural distortion. However, I mounted the tube like shown to make sure both ends of the tube were true with each other. Now that its securely in place, the middle of the tube can be cut out...if Tom sees the need to do that.

Although I'll post more pictures of the actual installation of the swaybars later, I plan on mounting them to the axle with these shock tabs.


It mounts to the axle tube as shown.


This is not the way Jeff normally mounts the bottoms. The reason I'm doing it this way is that it'll provide a double-sheer on the bolt that'll hold them in. Although a single sheer will be fine for a normal scout, for the racer, I want to make sure we're covered...and then some.

The rod ends that were sent have studs pressed/screwed in them, so I'm going to ask Jeff to send me a part number ~ or just different ones without this stud.


On the sway bar side, we'll mount them single sheer. The reason is that the steel arms are about 3/4" thick and so they are plenty strong enough to use the stud.


Last picture in this post is a little unrelated to the swaybar setup. Here's the bottom of the fuel cell's tray. As you can see, there is 2" tube protecting it in case it has a run-in with a rock....or three.

You can even see the sway bar mounts underneath the tube work.
 

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Discussion Starter #171
Next is the rear bumps. Tom has found the air bumps work extremely so the call was made that they are also going onto the new racer. Bump cans are thinner metal 'cans' that wrap the bump stops (also called air bumps) and uses 'squish' to hold them. Here is one can and air bump.


The air was then taken out of the bumpstop (being careful to make sure no air got INTO the bump), and with the axle at full compression, we mocked up the bumpstop where we'd want it.

Note: the air bump is about 1/2-3/4" from full bump, the reason is that we will be welding on a 'landing pad' of sorth to the axle to give the bumpstop a nice level/flat pad to push against. Should make for longer life of the urethane ends. We also wanted the bump stops to mount at least as far out as the rear links. This will insure that if Tom lands on one tire, the axle can't compress on that side enough to bottom out the shocks.

With the bump stop's location set, we built a tube to come off the main tube and hole-sawed each end.


Welding the bumps in. Pauls one happy guy.


We also welded a support tube that gives upward bracing to the bumpstop. This is needed as this racer will see some REALLY strong hits, and we wanted to make sure the bumpstops are up to the task ahead of them.

Tom, if there is any more bracing you want in the bump can mounts, please let me know.

Next is the upper shock mounts for the rear. We used 3/16" thick, 2" wide plate for these. Everything on the shock is in double sheer, and we used spacers to get the correct width. After everything is final, we'll add another plate making the mounts 3/8" thick where the bolts go through.


Shocks mounted up.


Currently the coil-over is int he back. The axle is still at full stuff/compression. As seen, there is 3" still left in the shock before full compression is reached. We have 3" extended lower mounts to take up this slack.

Here's an interesting thought.

The distance from the shock's top mounting holes and the bottom mounting holes is the same when compressed. However, when fully drooped out, the rear hole is longer. This way Tom can use a by-pass shock ~ or just another coil-over shock in its place.

With the 16" coilover in the rear hole (as shown) ~ the rear will have over 20" of wheel travel ~ quite a bit of travel! A shorter shock can be used up front to help with dampening duties. However, my personal preference, is moving the 16" coil-0ver to the front hole and using an 18" 'helper shock' in back. This would give more travel as well as give the helper shock more advantage than it being in the front hole.

Although we still have some work to do on the shock mounts before they're complete, that wraps up the rear end of the racer. At least.... my part of it.
 

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Discussion Starter #172
Next big obstacle was to mount the motor. To do this, we needed one. Luckily the RMB group is a really nice and helpful group of guys. So with a call out on the email list, I had one old 304 and two guys at my disposal! ;)

The day started off with driving up to Monument/Palmer lake to pick up Jacob and his motor. This is his spare 304.


We bolted a gutted out TF727 to it. This will allow us to make a good trans mount at the same time.


Jeremy (another RMB guy) showed up and was ready to lend a hand...so he and Jacob started measureing the firewall to get a good place to start cutting!


Here's Jeremy getting and double checking the center line.



The motor/trans was then lifted into the engine area.


As you can see, the front jack stand was lowered all the way to allow the motor to be lifted into place without lifting it to the moon!


EWwww... old engine puke.:barf:
 

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Discussion Starter #173
Obviously we want to keep the new racer as balanced as we can. Most of you know that IH made the Scout similar to all their other equipment ~ that means a big HEAVY powerplant. One guy (Mech here on POR) stated that 'IH' didn't stand for "International Harvester" ~ rather "ITS HEAVY" ~ and friends, that aint no lie.

And with physical size of a chevy big block 454 with a meger displacement of 304 ~ the IH motor tips the scale about about 750 pounds, which is a good few hundred over the nearest auto maker. However, with all that weight up front Scouts normally are pretty good climbers.

But racing? There are two philosophys. Some say that having a heavy front makes you fly straighter ~ like a dart, if you get the heavy front flying in the right direction, the back will follow. However, I've seen Tom lawn-dart his current racer at least once ~ With any luck, maybe Tom will post a link to the video that shows what I'm talking about. I think he'll admit to lawn-darting 2-3 times ~ and when I say lawn-dart ~ I MEAN those 5# childhood toys that you'd throw up in the air, and it'd come back down with a quick and abrupt stop, stuck into the ground (they don't make toys like the used to :shaking:). Picture that with a Scout. Tom throws it into the air....and....well, you'll have to see the video.

The other philosophy is having a more balanced rig ~ and is the generally accepted one. The new racer we hope to have this characteristic. We want this scout to fly a little straighter ~ land a little ... softer ~ and if at all possible, not be so prone to pulling a 'lawn dart' on the track.

So we marked the firewall and started cutting.


Here's Jeremy starting the trans tunnel area.



....and up the passenger side....


..mating the cut with the cuts I made with a cut-off wheel from inside the engine bay...


Jacob taking care of the driver side...
 

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Discussion Starter #174
Why cut the poor trans tunnel out? Well to get the 'balance' in the racer, we want to move the engine back. How far back? About this far back.


Gee did we move it at all? How about this angle.


You know we moved it a TON when if you count the exhause ports...

...it looks like we installed a BIG V6! Yup, that's a full 12" back from its stock location!



Yes, it isnt' recommended to move an engine back that far normally. I mean, now we have to relocate the gas pedal since the original spot...well, its gone. But we're confident Toms new racer will be a bit more stable at high speed, around corners, and flying through the air!...so its worth it.




With the engine centered and the back trans output mostly centered, we started making adjustments to the pitch of the drivetrain. Normally, IH set 2-3 degrees down to help with rear driveshaft angles ~ I've got to confirm with Tom if he wants to keep that, but everything is tacked in with a degree and a half for good measure.


With the engine mounts HEAVILY tacked in (more like a short weld than a tack) weight was completely put on the new mounts, and angles/measurements double checked for good 'measure'.

That wrapped up the RMB 'Help with the racer' work day. Here's the crew.

Starting from the top ~ going clockwise. Jacob, Jeremy, myself at the bottom and of course, Paul with his signature pose on the left.
 

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Official updates.

But the problem is ~ as with any racing org ~ you normally need a dual wall cell. In SCORE and related org's that Tom races in, having a rigid cell with an internal blatter is required, so this idea of an ultra cool alum. TIG cell was out since we couldn't find a good enough universal blatter for it.
I think I still need to get foam for the inside of the tank, too - but then there's also the remote filler, roll-over venting routing, blah blah.

Tom, if there is any more bracing you want in the bump can mounts, please let me know.
Y'know, they're probably just fine like that. The one thing I would've done a little differently would've been to tie the diagonal in a little higher up on the can, or at least in the actual corner, but it'll probably be just fine as-is. I've seen a lot of desert trucks with the air bump sorta hangin' out there and they hold up fine.. but there IS a lot of force in 'em.

I read somewhere that the last inch of compression is anywhere from 1200lbs/inch to 2400lbs/inch.

I guess, at this point, I might be inclined to just add some gussets to fill in the "V" of the can mount.

Picture that with a Scout. Tom throws it into the air....and....well, you'll have to see the video.
You must mean this video..
Lawn Dart

No, wait.. that's not it.. it's THIS one..

Full Race
Just the highlight





There are others, of course. Last year I ran a run in Billings and I started the main race without rear shocks (ripped the mounts off during the heat). I was driving easy, but at one point thought I'd see what would happen if I "went big" over the big jump.. with no rear shocks, the rear end REALLY kicks when you launch it, and it tried hard to have the rear pass the front when I landed - and then bottomed out the rear suspension immediately, with no rear shocks.

Looks like you had a crew out there - thanks, guys! I haven't seen Jacob / SupremeBeholder in a few years.

Here's where my engine sits in the current chassis.




For those that haven't figured it out yet, the gas pedal will be re-installed, but shifted over, which means the brake pedal has to be moved over since the gas pedal is taking up it's spot.. which means it's a really good thing that I run an automatic in this Scout, since it'd be hard to cram a clutch pedal in there, too!

Then again, maybe we just mount an electric solenoid on the carb and the gas pedal becomes an on/off kinda thing. ;)

Looking at this picture


The big hole to the right of the new doghouse/tunnel area is where the steering column is supposed to be, with the other good sized hole being the brake master cylinder mount.

The brake pedal assembly and steering column supports are an integrated unit - but the brake pedal needs to move over (maybe a heat n' bend would do the job?) while the column probably *can't* move, since it'd end up putting my elbow outside the chassis when driving. I can adjust to using my left foot for the brake, right for gas (heck, I already do most of the time) but having the column offset (and we know the seat can't move over, it's a tight fit as it is) would really mess with things.

Might be that the brake pedal gets shifted over, and the column just gets mounted to the dash bar with a couple of tabs that replicate the stock setup.
 

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Great build you guys have going on here, racing scouts thats something different, much better than most of the new stuff here on pirate, and better than reading the same (good) stuff over and over again.
 

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Most of the big travel trucks use a 2 piece rear drive shaft. The first, short section is angled down about 10* to a carrier bearing, then the second shaft has the slip and CV. I guess by adding the first 10* drop it lets you get away with that much more travel out of the second one. I know you know this already but to help with your weight dist put as much stuff as you can around or behind that cell. Coolers(oil/trans, not coleman), batterys, etc...

Looks good so far. Long ways to go but I cant wait to see it finished:evil:
 

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Most of the big travel trucks use a 2 piece rear drive shaft. The first, short section is angled down about 10* to a carrier bearing, then the second shaft has the slip and CV. I guess by adding the first 10* drop it lets you get away with that much more travel out of the second one.
The big desert trucks are all 2wd, too, of course, and I think their wheelbase (and driveshaft length) dictates a 2-piece shaft, along with how the rear suspension wants to pivot around a certain point.

I've heard a driveshaft shouldn't be over 6 or 7' without a carrier - the long tube tends to bow/bend at speed.

My rear shaft should be around 40" long, with the front coming in around 38" given that the rear links were moved back 12", and so was the engine, it should maintain close to stock Scout length in the back.

By cutting the frame, we can get the rear axle / rear shaft to come up past horizontal, which is how we'll pull ~20" without binding the driveshaft.

The still relatively short wheelbase (114 total?) and the 4x4 limits what we can do tho'.

I know you know this already but to help with your weight dist put as much stuff as you can around or behind that cell. Coolers(oil/trans, not coleman), batterys, etc...
My current plan is to put the engine radiator up front, roughly "stock" relative to the engine (so about 12" back from stock). It'll be pretty safe there and I can run stock rad hoses, etc.

The area that's boxed in in front of the rear axle, but behind the cab, where the coil-over mounts are roughly, I intend to use for the transmission cooler with a fan on it. The transmission will be sitting near there already, so why run trans line all the way forward? ;) Plus, the trans coolers will have fresh air instead of either having heat added by the engine, or adding heat to the engine radiator. Might still opt for a front cooler before I'm done, but the intention is one trans cooler behind the cab, one engine radiator in front.

Helmet pumper will mount above the trans cooler - hope to make sure it gets cool air into the pumper, instead of hot trans cooler air. ;)

Also planning a bulkhead behind the cab, so the trans cooler will need to be towards the rear a bit to make sure there's room enough for some air flow.


Reminds me.. on the rear link geometry / coil-over mounts.



You'll notice that, in addition to working out with a 14/16 or 16/18 combo, the shocks are both at or about 90-deg to the trailing arm at full bump.

This has the effect of giving the shocks a "rising rate" as you get closer to full-bump. At full droop the shock travel to wheel travel is less (1" of shock = 2" of axle perhaps) reducing the effectiveness of the shock, but as you get to full bump, the motion ratio approaches 1:1 so the shocks become more effective.

It's something of a poor-man's bypass arrangement, making the shocks a little position sensitive.
 

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Discussion Starter #179
Yes, things are rolling along. Currently I have the front axle out and the knuckles are cut and prepped for turning. I've also started the front truss system (going on the bottom of the axle as Tom wanted) and then its all about putting everything back in and finishing up the front suspension junk. That reminds me that I need to install the D20 and build a trans crossmemeber.
 

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Yes, things are rolling along. Currently I have the front axle out and the knuckles are cut and prepped for turning. I've also started the front truss system (going on the bottom of the axle as Tom wanted) and then its all about putting everything back in and finishing up the front suspension junk. That reminds me that I need to install the D20 and build a trans crossmemeber.

You should take it to the RMIHR and show it off. Looks like it will be a two tons of fun when done. :D
 
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