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Discussion Starter #1
Found this on RDC
http://www.race-dezert.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15921

Anyone else hear of this BS. Makes me think twice before getting a 40' GN to tow the truck around in....


Found this post on anotehr website,,,found it interesting....Thought I would pass it along as I havent heard of this....


Quote:
I spent the better half of my day off, sitting down with both State & U.S. DOT officials, reviewing what the current and future laws,restrictions fall under a ATV racer who transports a race quad from state to state by means of a motor vehicle towing a trailer.

The term "Sponsorship" defined by DOT officials, rule it as to sponsor something is to support an event, activity, person or organization by providing money or other resources in exchange for something, usually advertising or publicity, and always access to an audience that earns popularity and relies on income from sponsorship advertising.

So what's this mean? technically your vehicle,ATV and or trailer displaying sponsor graphics is a commercial operation. Requiring you to obtain a " B Class CDL" not based off the weight classification over 26,000 LBS or a trailer that weighs over 10,000 LBS. They view as if your a traveling bil board.

This brings up a loophole that's gonna get closed real soon, toter homes, they are big, carry lots of weight, have huge gvw's and are registered as motor homes, and revc vehicles and towing all over the country, in huge trailers.

They are currently exempt from weigh stations, and cdl's and logs, but not for long, the DOT is getting their stuff together, and they will be stopped and cited soon! Time is coming..............soon!

Until recentely I've started to see more and more race transporters displaying sponsor graphics being pulled over and cited

Failure to have a Log book and follow the hours of service laws. No USDOT Numbers on the vehicle. No commercial insurance policy and commercial registraion.

Just FYI, if you have RV insurance you better read your policy. If there is even the smell of commercial activity, any sponsor graphics on the side, they will pay NOTHING! You should also be stopping at all the scales. Then you need to get IFTA stickers and pay fuel taxes. And don't forget about your Med Card you need to renew every 2 years because you cross state lines. Oh yeah, and the drug testing!

Don't get pissed off with the and start bashing Police or State trooper over this issue, we inforce what is written by your peers you voted for. Will I enforce this? by law I am required too. But.....I did not see you.

More to follow. I have a second set of meetings today with the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration to start federal appeals.



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Discussion Starter #2
Are your Haulers legal - part 2

And some more ........

Now the DOT is messing with racers

7/8/05

had a different article ready to send to Jeff for this month but I deleted it after I made about 7 phone calls that pertained to a situation that a friend of mine went through. What I am about to write about could possibly affect EVERY RACER who races for a cash purse or deducts the expenses and show the incomes they get from racing.

I will start by telling you a short story that involves a good friend and a guy who wouldn’t have the “attitude” that might cause a Department of Transportation enforcement officer to be an ***. If anything, I would say this racer would probably accommodate the officer and ask what he needed to be doing differently. The next series of events came about as close to leaving me speechless as the “contingency thing."

Here is this racer towing down the highway minding his own business with his standard cab Dodge dually and 30’ fifth-wheel enclosed trailer with a dragster inside. The lights come on behind him and he pulls over. Not sure why he is pulled over he just sits and waits, as an excuse isn’t needed. The DOT Enforcement Officer is polite enough and asks for his driver’s license and registration. No big deal so far. A few minutes later he asks for the trailer registration (no problem, got that), a driver’s logbook (uh-oh!), a medical card and the commercial registration for the truck (double uh-oh!). About now he asks why all that stuff is needed. The response is the part that scares me and should scare you as well.

Before I go into some more details…check this part out. Since this racer had no logbook (do any of us?) the DOT Officer informs him he had to park the trailer for 10 hours since there is no way he can be sure this racer has driven more than the allowed 14 hours that day. ADVERTISEMENT


He told the racer to follow him to the DOT scale area and that he had to park the trailer, unhook and leave the area!!! Let’s see, no insurance on the racecar and parts, no security to keep an eye on it and the DOT told him they are not responsible. You cannot stay there to protect it. How often would you leave your race trailer, race car and tools sitting at a weigh station for 10 hours and you not be there? That bothers me more than meeting the requirements. What do you think?

The DOT officer then goes into the whole deal about commercial businesses and what determines them from a hobby, etc, etc. Bottom line, towing your race car to the races where you race for cash is now determined to be a commercial enterprise. This occurred in Wisconsin and I thought it might be a strange law there. I called the Iowa DOT and they explained it the same way. If you weigh over 10,000 pounds (truck, trailer and cargo) you are determined to be a commercial enterprise if you race for money and or deduct your racing expenses from your IRS taxes and show the winnings on a an IRS #1099.

You can call it a hobby and probably lie to the DOT officer about it being a hobby, but if he makes the right calls you'd better not tell him you race for trophies when he finds out where you are going or coming from. The officer I talked to also said if they run into a hassle they have the authority to make arrests, have trailers and trucks towed, etc, etc. In other words, these guys have all the power they need to enforce the law, as they or their superiors understand it.

I also asked this officer if putting on labels such as “Not For Hire” or “Recreational Vehicle” made vehicles exempt. His answer was short, “No." A vehicle is either going to be considered a commercial vehicle or it isn’t.

I am pretty sure most states will be following these same guidelines and at the very least you need to check them out. Each state DOT should have a website or be listed in the State Government Offices in your phone book.

Breaking it down: I received a 65-page document via email from the Iowa DOT that outlined this whole scenario. These are the basics as close as I can get to understanding it all. I do feel it is important for each of you to look into this in your state and be prepared. You may never be checked but then again, YOU MAY BE NEXT!

BASIC REQUIREMENTS AND SOME Q & A:

Who must comply? For-hire motor carrier – A person or business that provides transportations of persons or property in exchange for any form of compensation or payment. When I quizzed them about what that meant they responded with this response. If you have decals or sponsor names on the car or trailer and you race with the chance or plan to win money it is commercial. If you deduct the racing expenses and show race income on your taxes it is commercial.

What is a commercial vehicle? Any self-propelled or towed vehicle used on a highway in intrastate and interstate commerce to transport passengers or property when the vehicle:
- has a gross vehicle weight rating, gross combined weight rating. Gross weight or gross combined weight greater than 10,000 pounds; or
- is designed to transport more than eight passengers for compensation; or
- is designed or used to transport more than 15 passengers and is not used to transport passengers for compensation; or
- is used to transport hazardous materials in quantities requiring placards.

Logbooks/Hours of Service Drivers of commercial vehicles are subject to driving time limits as set forth in Part 395 of the Federal Motor Carriers Safety Regulations. The federal rules provide for three driving time rules that are in effect simultaneously.
- After a 100-hour break, a driver shall not drive more than 11 hours.
- After a 10-hour break, a driver shall not drive after 14 consecutive hours.
A driver shall not drive after completing 60 hours on duty in seven days, or 70 hours on duty in 8 days, unless the 34-consecutive-hour-restart provisions have been met.

Unless excepted, drivers must have a logbook which is current to the last change in status in their possession when on-duty. When on-duty, a driver must make the logbook available for inspection by any law enforcement officer.

There is an exception for local travel, it is called the 100-mile-radius Exemption. As the name indicates it is for traveling within a 100-mile radius of the driver or owners base of operation.

Fire extinguishers, triangle reflectors, fuses, inspections Each vehicle must have a minimum of a 5 lb. B-C fire extinguisher in an area clearly marked, three triangular reflectors that can be set up behind vehicle in the event of a breakdown are required. Spare fuses that match each circuit are required. Pre-Trip Inspection sheet should ALWAYS be filled out and kept in the logbook. Just a simple listing of what was checked will do; lights, turn signals, tire pressures, brake pedal and steering feel, hitch and safety chains, break-away battery and switch and trailer tires and lights.

Driver Qualifications/Medical Card There were forms on each state’s websites for Medical Card qualifications and forms for the physicals. Drivers must have a valid driver’s license for class of vehicle being operated, medical examiner’s certificate and skill performance evaluation (waiver if required).

There is a lot more to this, and there are a lot of opinions on this as well. All I can say for now is I was very surprised by the firm responses I got from the DOT Officers and their resolve that they know most racing operations are rated as commercial enterprises. I would have to agree they are commercial in nature because we can go to races that pay from $500 to $50,000 to win an event. With the tow rigs and trailers getting larger and larger and more valuable, it is very common for racers to take advantage of certain IRS rules and depreciate these big-ticket items on the annual IRS filings.

I will look further into this but in this first installment I just wanted to make sure as many of you as possible are alerted to what is going on.

Personally, I am going to get the DOT reflective triangles, another fire extinguisher, a DOT physical and definitely start keeping a logbook, so I don’t get pulled over for 10 hours and possibly lose my “day job” because I can’t be there Monday morning. Quite a bit to consider, that’s for sure. I invite your comments and any experiences you may have had with these matters. Just consider one thing, the next guy they pull over and tell them to leave their trailer at the weigh station MIGHT BE YOU.

I have to admit I hate the thought of more government invasions into my life but it goes hand in hand with how things are headed, I guess. At least we still have the freedom to go racing and burn up $7 per gallon race fuel…
 

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boy there in for a treat when that law passes. how easy is it going to be pulling over everybody towing a car, anybody with a load of sand, gravel, cynder blocks in the back of there pickup, moving themselves, and at the rate the boating world is progressing, anybody towing a boat. you can't even go to f-ing lake anymore with your boat, well you can as long as you tow it with your ford fiesta. How are they going to be able to determine if my truck and trailer weigh over 10,000lbs on the side of the road in the middle of nowhere??? And what about U-Hauls, they going to be stopping those know. i can't go one day without seeing there sponsorships posted on the side of a truck driving down the road. jesus i'm glad i didn't vote for these morons, all these idiots are making it illegal to go anywhere to have fun nowadays.
 

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All the officer has to do is look at the VIN sticker on the trailer. If it says the GVWR (gross vehicle weight rating) in greater than 10,000 lbs., he's got you. Here in California, it would require the driver to have a Class A lic. And yes, if you are hauling something in the trailer or on the truck that makes you money, then you are hauling for hire and must have DOT numbers displayed on the vehicle and carry all the safety equipment. Also in California, if they find that you are hauling for hire and are longer than 40' combined (truck and trailer) then you have to be part of the BIT program and are subject to random drug testing and your vehicles must be inspected by a DOT officer once a year. The laws have been in California for years, but states like California need more money, so this is a way to make it. So they just tell the officers to start looking for certain things and write the tickets, what a great way to boost their income. It is only going to get worse, and guys like me that sell the trailers are going to slowly go belly up because no one is going to want to buy a trailer.
 

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I would not be too worried about this... If enough people start getting pulled over for this - calls will be made to state and federal reps, the AARP will get involved if they think it will affect retired RV'ers, and the laws will be corrected to adjust for this obvious loophole.
 

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This writing has been on the wall for a while- I've heard stories- usually 5th or 6th hand by the time I get them.

For those reasons, I have nothing on the rigs that say race trailer or team number etc. I limit my "enthusiast" stickers to the tailgate (mostly) so I'm pretty much all white whan I pass someone from the side. If I'm ever asked, I am going trail riding with friends in MOAB etc. etc.

Plenty of rednecks (Umm....Nascar enthusiasts) running around with number 3 on their truck and a bunch of enthusiast stickers- are they under scrutiny too?

If they ever get to the point they can access my tax returns for the roadside, I'm probably toast. Then again, who is to say I'm not off that week and on vacation going to my favorite trail.

A toter is simply a safer way to tow an enthusiast trailer vs an RV with a huge overhang and a tag trailer.

Towing with an open trailer with a clearly visible rig saying team number and racing might be a bit more inviting for closer scrutiny.

A lot of people are not towing further than 10 hrs from home, so one might play that card. Maybe I was just visiting Grandma in Amarillo and now I 'm going to Farmington to see some friends???
 

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DRM said:
I would not be too worried about this... If enough people start getting pulled over for this - calls will be made to state and federal reps, the AARP will get involved if they think it will affect retired RV'ers, and the laws will be corrected to adjust for this obvious loophole.

Yep.
 

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Yea right once you let them take a freedom they will not give back you will have to take it back.
 

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I`ve heard of construction company owners having "magnetic" ads on their trucks instead of stickers so when/if they get in an accident they can remove them. (Personal trucks).

Towing a tube buggy w/no panels looks a lot more like a project in tow than a vehicle going to competition... just use some moroso quick fasteners for the panels and take them off if you are that worried.
 

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Last time I checked, federal law was 26,001 lbs and up needs a CDL, but I have always thought that those big ass motorhome drivers needed a CDL.
 

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Urban Wheeler said:
Last time I checked, federal law was 26,001 lbs and up needs a CDL, but I have always thought that those big ass motorhome drivers needed a CDL.
In Kalifornia they have a non-CDL Class A for those big ass motorhome haulers.
 

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Todd W said:
I`ve heard of construction company owners having "magnetic" ads on their trucks instead of stickers so when/if they get in an accident they can remove them. (Personal trucks).
I don't know of a single construction company owner that uses a "personal truck", they are all run through the company. Not sure what removing the magnetic signs are gonna help...
 

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Trailer Guy said:
All the officer has to do is look at the VIN sticker on the trailer. If it says the GVWR (gross vehicle weight rating) in greater than 10,000 lbs., he's got you. Here in California, it would require the driver to have a Class A lic. And yes, if you are hauling something in the trailer or on the truck that makes you money, then you are hauling for hire and must have DOT numbers displayed on the vehicle and carry all the safety equipment. Also in California, if they find that you are hauling for hire and are longer than 40' combined (truck and trailer) then you have to be part of the BIT program and are subject to random drug testing and your vehicles must be inspected by a DOT officer once a year. The laws have been in California for years, but states like California need more money, so this is a way to make it. So they just tell the officers to start looking for certain things and write the tickets, what a great way to boost their income. It is only going to get worse, and guys like me that sell the trailers are going to slowly go belly up because no one is going to want to buy a trailer.


Some clarification to that post. You DO NOT need a "Class A" license on "ALL"
trailers of 10,000 GVWR, just bumper pulls. A GN or 5th Wheel under 15,000 GVWR
is legal with a "Class C" license.

Here's a quick chart showing the current Cali license requirements.

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/cdl_htm/lic_chart.htm
 

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also in california if your running a stock truck with a modified bed your to scale out a modified bed is defined as any bed other than stock, so utility bed and flat beds are to scale. even you yota guys with flat beds are suppose to scale out. bitch is if you do stop they piss and moan that your not "commercial" and if you don't you can get a ticket. and no i can't find the penal code number but i was informed this from a family friend who has been a chp truck cop for the last 10 years. the aarp will help for toter/trailers/motor homes but there will be a commercial sub section that will affect the sport. and as mention taking off the panels may help but many shops/teams have trailer graphics as well. and thats the point, to have a "billboard" for people to see who may or may not be involved in the sport.
 

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SanDiegoCJ said:
Some clarification to that post. You DO NOT need a "Class A" license on "ALL"
trailers of 10,000 GVWR, just bumper pulls. A GN or 5th Wheel under 15,000 GVWR
is legal with a "Class C" license.

Here's a quick chart showing the current Cali license requirements.

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/cdl_htm/lic_chart.htm
WRONG!!! Gooseneck and 5th Wheel "RV" trailers are good with a class C up to 15,000 lbs., but gooseneck and 5th wheel trailers, and bumper pull trailers, equipment, enclosed, horse/stock, etc. trailers do require a class A lic. Trust me, I've been selling trailers for years, and before I sold them, my father sold them. It doesn't matter if it is a bumper pull or gooseneck, the only type of trailer that is legal over 10,001 lbs. gvwr with a class C is an RV trailer.
 

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Trailer Guy said:
WRONG!!! Gooseneck and 5th Wheel "RV" trailers are good with a class C up to 15,000 lbs., but gooseneck and 5th wheel trailers, and bumper pull trailers, equipment, enclosed, horse/stock, etc. trailers do require a class A lic. Trust me, I've been selling trailers for years, and before I sold them, my father sold them. It doesn't matter if it is a bumper pull or gooseneck, the only type of trailer that is legal over 10,001 lbs. gvwr with a class C is an RV trailer.

You DID NOT specify in your post what type of trailers you were talking about.
You stated that ..............................................................................

"If it says the GVWR (gross vehicle weight rating) in greater than 10,000 lbs., he's got you".

and that's incorrect.
 

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Trailer Guy said:
WRONG!!! Gooseneck and 5th Wheel "RV" trailers are good with a class C up to 15,000 lbs., but gooseneck and 5th wheel trailers, and bumper pull trailers, equipment, enclosed, horse/stock, etc. trailers do require a class A lic. Trust me, I've been selling trailers for years, and before I sold them, my father sold them. It doesn't matter if it is a bumper pull or gooseneck, the only type of trailer that is legal over 10,001 lbs. gvwr with a class C is an RV trailer.

you're WRONG a stock trailer is a class c, the rest is correct but heres another problem

IF DMV REQUIRES YOU TO HAVE A CLASS A LICENSE TO OPERATE YOUR SET UP THEN DMV MUST LET YOU TEST WITH SAID VEHICLE AND GETTING THEM TO DO SO IS A PITA.



my dad has a friend that has an f350 utility bed and trailer that he hauls a large bobcat on. was stopped by the chp and was informed that his set up REQUIRED ca numbers and dot numbers and his license was wrong, he had a class c and needs an a. well he takes truck and trailer to dmv and wants to test for the class a in his truck. he was told PER dmv that his truck required a class c license. he had to go next door to the chp office and get a truck cop to explain to the dmv lady his truck was indeed a class a vehicle. so it can be a real pain in the ass.
 

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SanDiegoCJ said:
You DID NOT specify in your post what type of trailers you were talking about.
You stated that ..............................................................................

"If it says the GVWR (gross vehicle weight rating) in greater than 10,000 lbs., he's got you".

and that's incorrect.
True that, true that, you are correct, I should have been more specific, but then again, we both should have. Anyhow, anyway you look at it, it's not right that RVers get away with it. The only reason they do is the politics. The politicians don't want to drive the retired money out of California, so they leave the RVers with Class C lic. I get the retired 70+ with the 36ft. 5th wheels in my shop all the time. Most of which have damage on the trailer from hitting something. And I always love the retired gentlemen that have never driven anything bigger than the Nissan 4 door and buy 40ft. motorhomes and a trailer to put their cars on, and think they are safe drivers. The license laws in California are a joke. You know how many sales I lose because of the 10,001 gvwr class A lic. law and the flatbed and service body go through the scales law. The laws have been there for a very long time, but recently, they have been enforcing them very strictly, at least up in my area. All the ranchers have said the hell with it, and quit buying these items or are moving out of California. California is stupid in this matter, every sale I lose in another 5.25% sales tax they lose. It is truly amazing how California will cut its own throat with the laws, when they could be making more money for themselves.
 

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ironpig70 said:
you're WRONG a stock trailer is a class c, the rest is correct but heres another problem

IF DMV REQUIRES YOU TO HAVE A CLASS A LICENSE TO OPERATE YOUR SET UP THEN DMV MUST LET YOU TEST WITH SAID VEHICLE AND GETTING THEM TO DO SO IS A PITA.



my dad has a friend that has an f350 utility bed and trailer that he hauls a large bobcat on. was stopped by the chp and was informed that his set up REQUIRED ca numbers and dot numbers and his license was wrong, he had a class c and needs an a. well he takes truck and trailer to dmv and wants to test for the class a in his truck. he was told PER dmv that his truck required a class c license. he had to go next door to the chp office and get a truck cop to explain to the dmv lady his truck was indeed a class a vehicle. so it can be a real pain in the ass.
No, stock/horse trailers fall under the same laws as equipment trailers. We actually had a DOT cop come to our business and give a 2hr. class to a local horse group in our area about the laws. The class A was the main focus for all 2 hrs. Many of the people that attended were very pissed at the end, and expressed it to the cop, and told him that the law was stupid and they would tow anyway. 2 of the people have come in since and told us that they have received tickets for not having the proper lic. This is slowly becoming more and more of an issue up in my area. I figure that sooner or later it will be an issue all over. With trucking taking a huge decline in this area, the DOT cops don't have much to do anymore, so they have to justify their jobs, and this is how they can do that.
 
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