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Discussion Starter #1
Basically, we are getting forced with a sticker program to go off road. Currently there is no fee except for some land. I do not support the sticker program but since it is being forced on us there are some things that need to be in the bill. Please email or send this guy a letter.

Email: [email protected]

Address:
OHV Comments
c/o Joe Sacco
Arizona Game and Fish Department
2221 W. Greenway Road
Phoenix, AZ 85023-4399


Here's the cut and paste letter:


Dear Mr. Sacco:

As an outdoorsman and OHV enthusiast I appreciate the preservation of and access to our nation's vast resources. These areas should be preserved so that they can be used and enjoyed by all. The Copper Sticker program is one way to support this goal. If this program is not used to retain open access for all to these areas, then the Copper Sticker program will not receive my support.

However, I am concerned about several aspects of the bill in its current form. I cannot support it unless the following changes are made. The administration should not be changing the details of this bill flying in the face of the wishes of the users supporting this bill. That is not the democratic way.

These are the points required in the Copper Sticker bill for my support of it.

1. The bill must be user driven bill as it was intended. As you are well aware, the support of this bill, at least by the OHV community, has always been predicated on that point. I am sure the public forums bore this out as well.

2. With the sole exception of the two public at large positions, the program advisory group positions need to be filled by representatives of the OHV community. This is a user driven bill. The users are OHV enthusiasts. This is the demographic that must be represented on the advisory board. The public at large positions need to be filled by members who understand and support OHV needs. Without this the Copper Sticker program becomes nothing like what it was intended and cannot be supported by the OHV community.

3. The 60% cap on the individual categories from the 50% OHV dollars must have a time limit. The cap cannot be used in the same disbursement category two or more consecutive years. It has been suggested that certain non-OHV interests have been promised portion of the Copper Sticker program funds indefinitely. This is clearly not in the best interests of the program. We must ensure that funds are properly dispersed for purposes of the Copper Sticker OHV program and not redirected inappropriately. Oversight is mandatory. Other interests already receive funds for their own purposes. These funds must be applied in part for the ongoing maintenance of access to our outdoor resources, and for the expansion or changes to areas as the needs of the OHV community and the shift.

4. All motorized vehicles that travel off a highway or maintained road must require a Copper Sticker. It is unthinkable in my mind to make it any other way. Hunters pay for the right to take game; fishermen to take fish; licenses issued for motor vehicles pays for the State highways. All users of OHV routes should pay for that privilege, or none should. Very simple and quite fair. The Copper Sticker funds are for maintaining these areas. As a taxpayer I do not see this in any way as a double tax. I already pay for access to State Trust land and my vehicle is licensed by the State. I would happily pay the Copper State fee providing that it maintains access to these OHV areas. I also support exceptions for ranchers, miners and other specific official uses such as law enforcement or sanctioned maintenance efforts.

5. The Copper Sticker fee must be set by the advisory board. While the G&F Commission may have some advisory capacity in recommending the fee setting, the users must set the fee.

6. The State Land Department must allow the Copper Sticker program to replace the State Land Permit. This is actually in the best interest of the State Land department as it will afford more funds than are currently collected. Doing so will also reduce what may be perceived as double dipping by the user community.

7. Search and Rescue must be allocated some portion of funds as per the advisory board recommendation. This often under-funded service is critical for the safety of all off-road users, OHV or otherwise.

8. Allow automobile and recreational vehicle dealers to sell permits. It makes sense to put this program front and center to afford optimal and voluntary compliance. Among other benefits, this will heighten awareness, encourage voluntary compliance, reduce burden on law enforcement and reduce the administrative load on the program. There is precedent for other agencies for example, dealerships issuing temporary permits for new vehicles on behalf of the DMV.


Sincerely,
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Here is some background on the issue. I am just cut and pasting it from another guy.


I lifted this vernbatim from AzVJC as posted by SAndee McCullen.

I am not trying to be alaramist, but I firmly believe this is really important to us all. We will lose eventually our rights to wheel if we do not follow through. It only takes a few minutes from your busy day.

I am going to post my response in a reply to this thread. You can take whatever you want from these and make them yours or whatever, please just take a few minutes and follow up.

Note that the online submission for used by G&F is freaking brain dead and does not appear to work correctly. I am concerned it will lose rersponses, so I urge the snail mail or emailsubmission.


Thanks,

Barry


URGENT.... Copper Sticker RESPONSES
Copper Sticker proposal

OHV Enthusiasts,

I know this is lengthy but it is the background info regarding the proposed Copper Sticker (OHV Use Permit) proposed for legislation submission on Dec. 8, 2006. The "draft" as posted on the Game & Fish WEB site is NOT what the OHV community or workgroup supports. It's CLOSE but if left "open ended" OHV LOSE and the Enviros WIN. PLEASE take a few minutes and read this and then cut and paste the 5 issues and any of the suggested issues into your personal mail and send to Game & Fish immediately. OUR FUTURE depends on ALL OHV sending in their comments. You can be assured the radical environmentalists are doing just that!!!!!

Please forward this to your club/group, friends, fellow OHV'ers, family, or neighbors. Out of state groups can also be a help.
You can download the draft legislation and get additional information at the department's Web site at azgfd.gov/coppersticker. You can submit your opinion in two simple ways: through that Game and Fish Web site or by U.S. mail to OHV Comments, c/o Joe Sacco, Arizona Game and Fish Department, 2221 W. Greenway Road, Phoenix, AZ 85023-4399. [email protected]

History:
The planning on this started behind closed doors with Game & Fish and Law Enforcement approximately 5-6 years ago. There were rumors Game & Fish were looking at all the dollars being dedicated to Law Enforcement. Two years ago there were “select” persons from the OHV community invited to join this work group. This group met monthly or nearly monthly working through OHV laws and how to fund. Again, the original percentages dedicated the larger portion to Game & Fish. This was an intense process as each time the group, as a whole, agreed on a supporting issue when it came back to the table it had been changed. This went on for months. We were told the draft proposal would go to the public and the legislators prior to submission. Then suddenly a bill appeared within the House that no one knew about. This bill was killed, and revived in the Senate with Senator Flake supporting it. This bill was close to what the workgroup had agreed but it was missing several important issues that had again been deleted or changed. This was never resolved by the time the bill started through the committees. The committees tore the proposal apart. This was from pulling all OHV laws; deleting the Copper Sticker funding; pulling the OHV funding from State Parks and directing to G&F to the OHV laws back in but with no penalties allowed. This was also killed only to be revived again through a Striker Bill. This was left to die a natural death at the end of legislative session. We were always told this was intended to be a User Driven Bill.

Back to the table. Game & Fish requested the OHV partners draft a proposal to present to the group. This was done. The following meeting all issues were agreed to except the seats on the Arizona State Parks OHV Advisory Group. The Arizona Off Highway Vehicle Coalition met and agreed on a compromise to present. This compromise was submitted to Game & Fish at the next meeting of the work group. There was no discussion and no consideration. It was then announced this was not a User Driven Bill, it was now to be presented as a “Cooperative Bill”. Game & Fish had already made plans to go forth to the public WITHOUT a presentation the group had agreed to.

G&F seem to believe this money is THEIRS……………….. To do with as they and/or the G&F Commission wish. IT IS NOT THEIRS. G&F are simply WELL PAID "ADMINISTORS". The recommendations of how and where the 50% OHV dollars go is up to the OHV Advisory Group. It is OUR money. "USER PAY, USER RECEIVE"

At this time G&F have just finished ten public meetings across the state.......... Almost no ASA4WDC clubs were represented at any of them. It may be that many of you don't want a Use Sticker but at this time THERE WILL BE ONE WHETHER WE LIKE IT OR NOT. The problem is:

*** The "draft" as it is right now is NOT what the workgroup or the OHV group agreed to. It is CLOSE. The OHV laws are good and the basic concept is good. But no matter what the workgroup agreed to It was always turned to what G&F and the ENVIROS want. IF OHV do not get the issues listed below into this draft, the dollars WE will be REQUIRED to pay will go to G&F and the ENVIROS.

*** The other side of this issue is if G&F go ahead and submit to legislation the draft as it exists right now without support of the OHV community we can kill the bill like last year BUT if we kill it this year, and I'm certain we can, the counties are now waiting in the sidelines to implement their own permits for each county and ALL these dollars go to the specific county.............. NOTHING to OHV or our issues. OR, the feds will simply implement numerous OHV FEE AREAS that will be much more than $10.00 - $15.00 per year. OHV MUST step up to the plate and help "support their own". If land managers cannot MANAGE the lands as mandated, WE LOSE. They will close trails to meet what they determine they can "manage".


These are a MUST:
1. This "bill" MUST be submitted as a USER DRIVEN BILL.

(this has always been supported as a USER DRIVEN bill………… the first the workgroup heard of anything different was the LAST workgroup meeting prior to the public meetings.)

2. The Advisory Group MUST REMAIN as it is. ALL members must represent an OHV organization and the two public at large must represent casual recreation with knowledge and support of OHV.( This DEMAND from G&F to REQUIRE G&F be allowed THREE automatic appointments to the Advisory Group each year was first brought up at the LAST workgroup meeting before the public meetings. This demand came from the Environmental groups. Sierra Club and CBD are the two leaders. They DEMAND seats on the OHV board, the DEMAND "No dollars from this fund go to "opening new trails", They DEMAND 60% - 75% of the OHV 50% for law enforcement and an additional 20% of the 50% to Environmental rehab. No other Advisory Board in the state have OHV members………. The History; Archaeology; non-motorized trails (remember, we share the RTP dollars from Federal Highways 50/50 with non-motorized now); etc…………. If the environmentals get seats on OHVAG we'll end up like California within 3 years. NOTE #1: Also remember, this Advisory Group already oversees the OHV Gas Tax funds and the RTP funds. The enviros would also have a say in the disbursements of these dollars also!!!!!!!!!!
NOTE #2: The Coalition Resolution had originally offered a "compromise" regarding the "mandatory 3 seats for G&F on the Advisory Board". It was 2 seats with some parameters to keep the "die hard environmentalists at bay". G&F has refused to even consider this compromise so the OHV Coalition has pulled this offer and are supporting "Leave the OHVAG as is".)


3. The 60% cap on the individual catagories from the 50% OHV dollars MUST have a time limit. "The cap cannot be used in the same disbursement category two or more consecutive years".
(if no guidelines G&F will direct 60% of the OHV grants portion (50%) to law enforcement each year. G&F are already telling the enviros they can receive 60% of the 50% for law enforcement and/or enviromental rehab under a "Long term agreement". G&F have announced in the public meetings they plan on using this 50% of OHV funds to fund "long term funding". Remember, G&F already receive 7% for administering the fund; 15% for JUST G&F law enforcement; and an additional 15% for OHV education!!! They receive 30% of the Gas Tax dollars now ($800,000.00) for OHV law enforcement and education…….. When's the last time anyone within OHV see any of these funds used for them? The OHV Education trailer is now sitting at the Ben Avery Shooting Range being used as an office!!!!!

4. ALL motorized vehicles that travel off a highway or maintained road must require a Copper Sticker.
(The "workgroup" proposed EVERYONE be required a sticker but G&F have time and time again changed it back to THEIR WAY. They claim the legislators will "not approve a double tax on licensed vehicles". Duh!! The proposal as is written by G&F is: ALL licensed and unlicensed ATV's; ALL licensed and unlicensed dirt bikes & dual sport bikes; but ONLY UNLICENSED UTV's (rhinos, golf carts) and full sized vehicles. WHY would it not be a double tax on ATV's and bikes if this was the reason. The real reason is IF it affects ALL it means the Sierra Clubbers; CBD; mountain bikers; bird watchers; and equestrian that actually DRIVE OFF the maintained roads that their LICENSE PAYS TO MAINTAIN will have to have a Copper Sticker. It doesn't matter if their 1st choice of sport is 'motorized recreation', they need to help pay for the maintenance of the trails and the management and education of ethical use just the same. There are exemption allowances for ranchers, miners, and county/state maintenance)

5. The "fee" MUST BE SET BY THE ADVISORY BOARD, NOT the G&F Commission.
(there is no reason G&F Commission should have any say in this fund other than the mandated "yea or nay" approval/disapproval. The Advisory Group should make the recommendations. This issue was discussed at length in the workgroup. It was always agreed the fee would "NOT exceed $20.00". The recommended fee was $15.00. Not sure when G&F slipped this new "commission rules" phrase in but remember the enviros definitely are in bed with G&F. This fee was agreed to because it fits with the surrounding states and also allows for reciprocity.
NOTE: The workgroup also recommended there be a "family discount of 1/2 fee" for all vehicles titled to the same person. G&F have ignored this.


These are issues that are important but won't make or break the bill or specifically hurt OHV:
In view that G&F have refused to even look at the compromise from the OHV Coalition re the "seats on the OHV Advisory Board" the Coalition has pulled it's support of a compromise. We ask the Advisory group remain as is. (Remember, if G&F or the enviros have 3 of 7 seats their involvement (which you all know is not OHV positive) will also affect the OHV Gas Tax dollars and the RTP (Federal Hwy's Recreational Trails Program). We'd end up like California in 3 years where 9/10 of the OHV dollars go to the enviros.

A. To allow any event or action under a Special Permit or hunting fishing license, while actively hunting or fishing, shall be exempt from the CS requirement.

(this was an agreed on issue but we are hearing from the meetings many simply want the permit to be for EVERYONE. No exceptions. )

B. State Land Dept. MUST allow the Copper Sticker to replace the State Land Permit.
(as it is now is we can "cross" but not park, camp, stop, unload etc under the CS. The 10% of $4,000,000.00 would amount to $400,000.00 to use for law enforcement OR land mitigation or improvements. The State Trust Land permit at it's highest (9/10 OHV holders) brought in $125,000.00. I would think $400,000.00 should allow us some compensations)

C. Require 1% of the 18% to G&F Education OR the 15% G&F Law Enforcement, to be directed to Search & Rescue.

(this has been asked for and approved numerous times in the past by the workgroup but G&F say it cannot be done. SAR say YES it can)

D. Ask the dealers be allowed to sell permits.
(last week was the FIRST time they agreed to this. Don't let them back down)

E. Ask the permits be "Year to date" rather than a calendar year.
(a calendar year simply makes for a backlog at the beginning of the year and does not allow for pro-rated permits purchased later in the year)

Add any/all issues you believe need to be in the bill to "cover and safeguard against loop holes for OHV".
 

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Azrckcrawler said:
Letter sent.

Hypothetical: say you go out in a wash and set up some targets, do you need the sticker?
According to the current draft only atvs licenced or unlicenced motorcyles and any other unlicenced vehicles have to buy the sticker. Most people in the ohv community are trying to get them to change it to include everybody. If this occurs then yes the shooters that are trashing the desert would also have to have a sticker and hopefully some of their money will go to help clean up their mess.

Making everyone buy the sticker would also mean the bird watchers, hikers, and horse back riders would have to pay to drive out to those areas. Right now these groups want us to pay but they want to be on the board that decides what the money is used for so they can use our money to shut us down.
 

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bdozeraz said:
According to the current draft only atvs licenced or unlicenced motorcyles and any other unlicenced vehicles have to buy the sticker. Most people in the ohv community are trying to get them to change it to include everybody. If this occurs then yes the shooters that are trashing the desert would also have to have a sticker and hopefully some of their money will go to help clean up their mess.

Making everyone buy the sticker would also mean the bird watchers, hikers, and horse back riders would have to pay to drive out to those areas. Right now these groups want us to pay but they want to be on the board that decides what the money is used for so they can use our money to shut us down.
Cool. I agree it should be a land use fee, not an OHV use fee.
 

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Azrckcrawler said:
Letter sent.

Hypothetical: say you go out in a wash and set up some targets, do you need the sticker?
ALL motorized vehicles that travel off a highway or maintained road must require a Copper Sticker.
(The "workgroup" proposed EVERYONE be required a sticker but G&F have time and time again changed it back to THEIR WAY. They claim the legislators will "not approve a double tax on licensed vehicles". Duh!! The proposal as is written by G&F is: ALL licensed and unlicensed ATV's; ALL licensed and unlicensed dirt bikes & dual sport bikes; but ONLY UNLICENSED UTV's (rhinos, golf carts) and full sized vehicles. WHY would it not be a double tax on ATV's and bikes if this was the reason. The real reason is IF it affects ALL it means the Sierra Clubbers; CBD; mountain bikers; bird watchers; and equestrian that actually DRIVE OFF the maintained roads that their LICENSE PAYS TO MAINTAIN will have to have a Copper Sticker.
A. To allow any event or action under a Special Permit or hunting fishing license, while actively hunting or fishing, shall be exempt from the CS requirement.

(this was an agreed on issue but we are hearing from the meetings many simply want the permit to be for EVERYONE. No exceptions. )
I guess it all depends on how this bill gets worded. This is what the copy and paste emails are asking for.

4. All motorized vehicles that travel off a highway or maintained road must require a Copper Sticker. It is unthinkable in my mind to make it any other way. Hunters pay for the right to take game; fishermen to take fish; licenses issued for motor vehicles pays for the State highways. All users of OHV routes should pay for that privilege, or none should. Very simple and quite fair. The Copper Sticker funds are for maintaining these areas. As a taxpayer I do not see this in any way as a double tax. I already pay for access to State Trust land and my vehicle is licensed by the State. I would happily pay the Copper State fee providing that it maintains access to these OHV areas. I also support exceptions for ranchers, miners and other specific official uses such as law enforcement or sanctioned maintenance efforts.
Chris,
I'm not trying to educate you by any means with this post because I'm sure you're aware of the issues and your hypothetical question is 1/2 sarcasm based on shooters that make ohv areas look like landfills. I just wanted to try to condense that particular part of the bill so others reading might pay attention to it instead of skipping by because it's too long. Basically, if I want to take my dog up to table mesa in my car to run around and chase a frisbee , I'll have to have a CS on it to park off the main road. So, if we get our way(or Sandee's way, or whatever) we will be buying stickers for our ohv's, motorhomes, trucks the wife drives up later, the kids ohv toys, and probably our trailers. I guess it's the lesser of two evils though. Maybe we'll get 1/2 off for additional stickers if these emails and letters are effective. I sent mine in, I'm supporting it but we're gonna get screwed either way.
 

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No sarcasm, I was curious if this could be an enforcement tool for that messy activity. You bring up a good point about motorhome/trailer/buggy. The way the bill reads I would only need it on my buggy. But if we get it changed to cover all vehicles then I can see needing 3, tow rig, motorhome and buggy. I don't see needing one for a trailer attached to a stickered vehicle.

valleycat said:
I guess it all depends on how this bill gets worded. This is what the copy and paste emails are asking for.



Chris,
I'm not trying to educate you by any means with this post because I'm sure you're aware of the issues and your hypothetical question is 1/2 sarcasm based on shooters that make ohv areas look like landfills. I just wanted to try to condense that particular part of the bill so others reading might pay attention to it instead of skipping by because it's too long. Basically, if I want to take my dog up to table mesa in my car to run around and chase a frisbee , I'll have to have a CS on it to park off the main road. So, if we get our way(or Sandee's way, or whatever) we will be buying stickers for our ohv's, motorhomes, trucks the wife drives up later, the kids ohv toys, and probably our trailers. I guess it's the lesser of two evils though. Maybe we'll get 1/2 off for additional stickers if these emails and letters are effective. I sent mine in, I'm supporting it but we're gonna get screwed either way.
 

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I honestly don't think enforcement is the issue. It's education. We, the ohv users, have been under attack for a long time. We police ourselves, each other, and pick up the slack for the abusers. We have been educated and continue to educate those coming into our sport about the consequenses of irrespnsibility. The target shooters have no idea of these consequenses. There was a guy at work(city boy) talking about going shooting at Table Mesa. I was interested in his conversation because I'm familiar with the area. I asked him if he cleaned up his targets and brass before he left and his answer floored me. He said "You don't have to up there, they have targets already set up. Appliances, boxes, cans, bottles, etc. These people don't know any better and they're not aware of the consequeses. I would bet if the NRA, Wal*Mart, Cabela's, K-Mart, gun shops, gun shows, etc. spent 1/2 the effort educating their customers as the offroad community has with ohv'ers, the problem would be solved. After reading some of the posts on the TOTR thread, this isn't just an issue here but all over North America. I know it was in the Pac. NW where I used to live.

The other problem is: If I see a kid out wheeling his mom's TJ and he throws a beer can and his McDonalds bag out on a trail, I'm going to stop him and tell him to pick his shit up. If I see a group of shooters with AK-47's leaving a mess, I'm going to let it ride. Maybe I'm a coward but land use is not as high on my priority list as staying alive.

And you're right, I may have embellished a little on the trailers to make my point. I did say probably though. I'm confident I will be buying stickers for everything else if the email I sent was successful.
 

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Azrckcrawler said:
Letter sent.

Hypothetical: say you go out in a wash and set up some targets, do you need the sticker?

I asked this exact question at the Glendale meeting a few weeks ago. I was told that only if the vehicles were not registered. It was explained that the board would not agree to charge everyone cause they feel legislature would throw the whole bill out. It also has to do with the interest groups involved ad Bdozer said. The Eqline have private ranches in the city, the shooters have ben avery, the hikers have north mountain, dreamy draw, south mountain, 3.14-estewa peak and others in the city. They already have options if these areas close. We don't. We are willing to pay to play, but want to make sure it isn't going to work against us.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I think i remember reading somewhere that the 1st sticker is full price at $10-15 and additional stickers are 1/2 price. Its BS that we should have to buy additional stickers for each vehicle but i think that's the only way to get every user to have a sticker. It would be too hard to enforce if there were many exceptions to the law.

The thing that ticked me off the other day was that one of my friends posted up on several shooting b-boards about the TM clean-up. Not one shooter showed up. The majority of clean-up involves the shooting areas. It would be good to require all vehicles on those OHV roads to pay because that will get the sierra clubbers and shooters to pay. Personally, i think all trails should use the gate-code feature like Bulldog Canyon. Its free to access, you just have to go to the forest service office to sign up. That keeps all the kids in their mom's TJ out. It has been reasonably effective in keeping the areas clean.
 

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Letter sent...

It would be really great If we could get some more help from people not living in az to send some letters too. When you make it out to AZ and use some of our trails you know we need to keep them open. I went out to TM this weekend and after the guys from BTG and others cleaned up on thxgiving weekend there was already trash everywhere.

The sticker plan should be for everyone to help keep our trails and other off highway areas open and clean.

as for you damn shooters take 5 min and clean up your spent shells and targets I love to shoot too but just clean up after yourselves
 

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E -mail Sent.

Thanks To All For The Research Required To Give Us One Up On The Haters.

It's Too Easy To Send An Email Or Letter When You Have All The Facts.

A+++++++++ Ladies & Gentlemen
 
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