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Discussion Starter #1
Hi all,

I know this topic is not dear to your hearts, but I do want to get some opinions on this.



Now: I got a cross series 40 pump running on a dog clutch on the back of the transfer case. (same place as puff's super slow poser colored hunk of crawler box). Works unreal, and means that the super slow milemarker can now keep up with, and beat most electric winches. However, to do this high speed winching, I gotta run the gearbox in 4th gear, which means I cannot drive the wheels and winch at the same time. If I put it in 1st gear, the winch is running way too slow.

Future:
I want to run my pump from the engine. It's taking about 10 HP to run this pump at full pull, which is too much for a single V belt.

Option 1: I'm looking at mouting the pump in line with the crank shaft, and putting using the dog clutch to on-off it. I'm thinking of fabbing a mounting bracket to hold the pump/clutch in line with the crank, and having a drive shaft that I can bold to the front of the engine pully.

Option 2: I get a new engine pully custom made with extra twin V pully's on it. Then I mount the pump much as an alternator or whatever and get a twin pully machined up for it. twin V's should cater for 10 hp (or damn nearly!).

Thoughts?

Anyone done this before?
 

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From a Fab standpoint, I'd think the belt method would be simpler. Alignment, engagement/disengagement, bracketry, etc.

As for the pump pulley, I think I'd look for something off-the-shelf versus fabbing a pulley.

Peace,
Paul
 

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With a diesel, why would one want to run something electric when the engine requires either no electricity, or very little? Isn't that one of the advantages of the diesel?

Also, if Merv expects to need ten horsepower to drive his pump, that would be one big motor to drive the pump-in that case, an electric winch would begin to be more attractive.

Didn't mean to flame you Mike.
Peace,
Paul
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Paul's got it.

Mike: Good in theory, but so far I've kept everything electric free. I've even eliminated the electric solenoids on the winch plumbing, and have a mechanical blow off valve on the air compressor. No f'kn electics. But I digress.

Paul, The on-off bit is easy, as I'd use the dog clutch I have now. I'ts the alignment that's a pig.
 

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Merv,

Couldn't you use a larger pump 40 series pump that delivers enough flow to run the winch? I am thing that this probably the cheapest and most cost effective way to upgrade your setup.
 

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for pulley sources, I believe that the older (70's/60's) dodges ran dual v pulleys 318's, as well as some of the ford crown vic/ltd 351/302's.

You might look there.

j
 

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Paul,

It'll take a lot more than that from you to piss me off.

I was actually saying that somewhat tongue in cheek, but then actually remembered that there is a similar application.

I read somwhere (probably here) about an air compressor that runs off of a winch motor. I was thinking that it might work out for a hydraulic pump, but then there's the whole loss of efficiency thing and he might as well have been using an electric winch from the start.

Personally I like the idea of the no electrics. Look at the gyrations I'm going through just to find the correct cut-off switch for the winch.

Now, where's my F-n seat!

:flipoff2:

This thread is actually educational for me. I know nothing about hydraulics, so keep up the good tech, and I'll shuddup for now.
 

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If I can get out of meetings and dealing with regulatory agencies (the city was in today to inspect wastewater), I might actually have a chance to work on your seat! Fortunately, the injury rate is far lower than in years past!

With respect to the multi-groove pulleys, the easy route (albeit potentially more expensive) is to visit one's industrial power transmission shop. They can find the shaft diameter, offset, number of grooves, depth/contour of the grooves, etc. much more easily than we can use the Hollander interchange manuals to find what we are looking for.

As my "Professional" involvement in such engineering feats grows, the time I have to paw around boneyards has become non-existent (I have a Rangie being delivered this evening with electrical problems and oil leaks-can you say retirement!). Given the premium being placed on my time due to competing interests, it is more important to remember we are trying to drain a swamp, not conduct meaningless engineering exercises.

The days of my being able to cobble things together and then fine tune later are gone. It has to be either right the first time, or darned close.

Peace,
Paul
 

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hey Merv,

why not use the twin belts like the military FFR 2.25 series used to use?

shouldn't be a problem trying to cobble together the double lower pulley to run the twin belts, abd the mount the pump where the AC compressor would normally go (or in the case of the very few 200Tdi FFR vehicles (actually, only prototypes) fit the compressor on the top of the cam casting.

OR

use a crank driven like you said. there are plenty of crank driven winches, like the superwinch or the Fairey like the electricity baord usually use. get the crank pulley bolt with the twisty bit in the end (can't remember the proper name for it) but the one that you use for hand cranking (on a Tdi? EEK!) then get a piece of bar that fits into the niddle of said bolt, with a roll pin through it acting as a shear pin, and then make up some bearings to support it, or just get the pukka crank driven bit off of a winch.

actually, seen some of the airfield crash tenders based on old rangies that have the HUGE water pump mounted at the front of the vehicle running off of the crank. try and steal that idea?

Jamie
 

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hydro drive

Wouldn't a single inch wide gilmer (toothed belt) be easier to mount and source pulleys for than twin V's, would handle 10hp no drama.
 

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Deranged might have the ticket with the Gilmer belt, if you can stand the noise.

I was thinking about the sheave issue last evening. If Merv is only running ten horsepower, I wonder if an air conditioning compressor isn't about the same drag on the engine and there is little issue with belting there. Has a single Vee belt been tried?Also, if one were to employ an A/C clutch, you could control the engagement to the pump allowing for the horsepower to drive the wheels, rather than pump hydraulic fluid. Yes, this would require those electrons again, and we know how folks east of NYC and west of Paris feel about the existence of electrons:p

As for the mounting of the pump in-line with the engine, I suspect that Merv intends to use this truck in rugged conditions. Given this, I think it is advisable to mount a piece of recovery-related equipment where it is less likely to be fouled-and mounting should be far easier.

Great discussion!:flipoff2:

PEace,
Paul
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Good Thinking guys. I'll go and have another look at the cross manufacturing site as they may have a higher volume pump. Never thought of that.

On the direct drive, I've already got a got clutch (mechanical) that can engage or disengage drive to the pump, so I'm not worried about loosing the 10hp or so when regular driving. It's the one that GBR sells.

Would one of those funny crank bolts that takes the pin with a cross pin thingy's really be able for this much power?

Merv.
 

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Anyway to change the gearing on the pump?
Not really, Hydraulic motors are very compact for their power. But Cross pumps are generally inexpensive, and Merv will have to get a new (larger) pump anyway, even if he goes with an engine mount.
 

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Ok I guess I've been lurking out here long enough and here is something I have some experiance with... I've got a 110 "project" (at least that's what it has turned out to be) that has a Ramsey hydraulic winch and the pump is engine driven via double V belts through an electric clutch. The clutch looks like a clutch on the York air conditioning compressors and seems to work fairly well. At least the set-up has pulled the truck out of some tough spots on occasion without any problem. I've got a photo if it'll help.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Allow me the honors:

Welcome newbie :flipoff2:

Seriously, pictures would be super, especially of the pully. Was it a custom made, or is it a standard LR part?

Also, What GPM / PSI do you get?

Also, how fast is it? as compared to an 8274 for example, under "full" load?
 

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Thanks for the salute!

From what I believe the winch was a LR dealer option in ’85 but I don’t know for sure. I do know the pump is made by Saginaw and is rated around 15gpm @ 2000psi. Line speed increases with engine rpm and of course is not affected by the transmission clutch. Line speed does not slow down under load unless the engine starts to bog down. I would guess it is a little slower than an 8274 but not affected by load as much as an electric. Here’s a pic of the engine mounted pump.

http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrowse.asp?selected=194146

Mike
 

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Discussion Starter #19
WOW!

That's the muts nuts!

Any chance of a picture of the pully?

Merv.
 

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I'd go out in the parking lot and get a better picture but it's still raining here and has been for a couple of days...3.5+ inches so far. Should have plenty of mud to play in! If you go to

http://www.northerntool.com/catalog/?CMID=osclrp5126b

and look up the hydraulic clutch pumps there is a pretty good picture. Item# 1081 has the same specs as the one I'm using on my winch.

Mike
 
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