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I am running a sagnaw pump for an eighty five CJ 7 with the west texas upgrade for flow. 44 inch tires with a 2 inch ram.I have 2 coolers on the steering 1 on the radiator and 1 remote with a fan also a heat shiled between the engine and orbital. my hydro assist brakes are off a 1 ton truck. in the last year i have went through about 6 power steering pumps. thankfully they are warrantied but i am getting tired of changing them. does anyone else run full hydraulic with hydro assist brakes and if so are you having this problem. I spoke to Matt H(west Texas Off road) a few weekends ago at katemcy he is running the straight hydro assist and has had his pump on for 2 years. so is the pump not strong enough. is it still egtting too hot ????


Thanks Mike


http://www.blacksheep4x4.com
 

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You've probably been through this, but the mountings are definitly straight and true?

Any chance the belt was over tightened?

Merv
 

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I personally would not be routing the power steering fluid through th eradiator to keep it cool. With this, you power steering fluid is going to be 180 degrees when it comes OUT of the radiatior. I bet you would find that the fluid is not that hot going into the rad. I have hydroboost brakes and hydro steering, but I have not run it long enough to find out how long the pump lasts.
 

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I have a lot of trouble turning when aired down, stopped, and twisted up with the ARG setup and HydroBoost. And sometimes need to go to neutral and increase RPMs to help the pump do it's job so I can turn. And this is with 35's.

You are way over taxing that pump trying to turn 44's and expecting it to stop them at the same time... and they are telling you so ...
You'd be MUCH better off running two seperate pumps...
One for the steering and another system for the HydroBoost.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Madmarx
sorry bad explination. i have a 20000bs tranny cooler on the radiator then a 50000lbs tranny cooler with fan mounted remote both for cooling the steering and braking sysytem. no fluid going into the radiator for steering.
Merv
i have a dddressed it a couple times but will look at it again. maybe i running it too tight.....
Jaffer
you could be right i am taxing the system. the pump goes out real fast. thankfully i can still steer and brake. but when it is working i have no problem steering and moving rocks or the rig which ever is lighter and braking at the same time.....i have seen the hydro assist on friends do what you are speaking of...i have a second steering pump mounting place already hooked up. i was using it for my forced articulation suspension. i tried to contact a guy who rebuilt my hydro boost but he is at jury duty today. the hydro boost has a pressure line in and out plus a return. i am wondering if i can just cap the the pressure out and use the return for the resevoir ???

Mike
 

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Hey Mike, I have a similar setup on my Cruiser. Hydroboost, ******* Ram setup, and 42s. I haven't yet added the hydro assist ram. Currently the brakes are good but the steering needs a little help in hard spots when it's aired down. Not horrible overall though. It makes a lot of noise when I'm turning and when the brakes are applied past the first level (if that makes sense). When I hold the brakes to the floor, they're loud. When I back off to the first "click", then it goes away. The fluid is full though. It's really strange. So here are some questions...

1. Do I, or will I need some type of remote reservoir setup to hold more fliud?
2. If so, do you have any pics of your setup?
3. Any ideas on the noise?
4. Any other updates or recommendations?

Thanks again. ~dso
 

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hydro

FWIW I have been running my hydro assit/steering and brakes for about 2 years with no pump problems. Mine all is homebrew though, I put the factory pump and resevoir on off the 1 ton chev(3 line pump, 1 press 2 return) that the hydroboost came off of. For the steering I have a 1.5" ram and no coolers(stupid) on either . The whole system gets too hot but no failers yet.

Mike
 

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had same problem!

i had almost the same situation. i went through about 5 pumps before making changes. first of all, i abandoned the hydroboost fast. i found it to rob more power from the pump than many "experts" claim. my conclusion came from: why when i'm on the brakes HARD, do i not have steering? look at many comp buggies. they run the Wilwood system that doesn't even have a booster. the hydroboost just complicates your system, is heavy, and really doesn't work that well. it was used on diesel trucks because they have very little vacuum for a traditional booster, not because it gave you more braking power. if any body wants to try it though i have one i will sell CHEAP. only a few hours on it with chevy front/rear disc master cylinder (paid $250).

my current position on this situation is that i have switched to a KRC 9000 pump. i had modified the relief valve in the saginaw pump by drilling it out a "little" bit and also machining a few thousands off of the end and taking all the shims out to increase flow and pressure (never check pressure, but my guess would be 1500-1600). my conclusion (with a new saginaw pump the steering was like butter) was my relief pressure was just too high for what the pump could handle. i seemed to blow the pump when the steering would "take a hit", by hitting a medium size rock with a little speed, or maybe one of those trees in that tight section in Rubicon Springs (lost a pump there once).

currently i have the KRC pump on but the relief pressure on it comes at 1200psi (i checked it with a gauge). i have found my steering to now be "heavier" than i like and am waiting on parts to upgrade to a larger double ended ram. my current 2" ram is mounted from the housing to the inside of the tie rod. i figured by placing a 2-1/2" ram in-line with the tie rod (increasing the moment arm) i will get about 30-40% more power even with 1200psi.

Call KRC! i think it was Matt or Greg or something (i know that really helps), but those guys KNOW THERE STUFF. unlike HOWE and others, KRC actually designs and MANUFACTURES their own pumps. very high quality stuff. their 9000 aluminum pump works great to over-drive because it can handle 9000RPM. cost with bracket and over-drive pulley was about $275 though. the cool thing is they have about 10 different flow valves ($12 each) to fine tune your system.
 

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You probably didn't need the extra power in the first place. But if you want to stop a heavy rig with big meats nothing compares with a "properly" designed hydroboost system. For the DIY guys its a hit or a miss and that's what's enjoyable for many of us wanabe 4x4 mechanics. However, I wimped out and sought out an authority on the subject and Paul Clark is very willing to share. Some only care to guard their Knowledge and are content with making sure you know that they are the final authority. I have no patience for those people, that's why I'm sharing my experience.
 

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I know that Tom at psc www.pscpowersteer.com has been working with vanco on hydroboost and they explained the setup to me and how they got it to work killer but I am no expert at it and recommend you get ahold of tom and he can tell you what they did to make the setup work correctly.

if you get ahold of vanco tell him to hurry up with the tech artical he is working on for pirate4x4.com so we will all know the real answer :D
 

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camo said:
I know that Tom at psc www.pscpowersteer.com has been working with vanco on hydroboost and they explained the setup to me and how they got it to work killer but I am no expert at it and recommend you get ahold of tom and he can tell you what they did to make the setup work correctly.

if you get ahold of vanco tell him to hurry up with the tech artical he is working on for pirate4x4.com so we will all know the real answer :D
Efont10 got all of his stuff from tom at PSC, and we will be hooking it up next week. The question we have is where the high pressure return off of the hydroboost master cylinder is supposed to go. Tom said run it into the low pressure return off of the orbital valve using a T, but we are not sure if that will be to much pressure for that part of the system to work with.
 

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The problem the guys running hydroboost and ram system together is the fault of the hydroboost in most circumstances. The hydroboost was never made with the intention of allowing enough fluid to operate a ram system. Whereas a box takes a lot of pressure it takes little flow, add ram and all the flow it needs the hydroboost will starve the ram. For years I would never sell my system with a ram setup.

However, that has all changed. We now hi-flow out our hydroboost when we're told the vehicle has or will have ram. Basically allowing 3x the amount of fluid to move through the hydroboost. Now the ram systems don't even "see" the hydroboost. You must tell us you have ram, we always try to ask. There is no longer any need to use 2 pumps. We've been problem free with every rock ram set up for 2 years now.

Routing is simple. High pressure from the pump to the engine side of the hydroboost. Wheel well side of the hydroboost to the high pressure side of the gear box. I reccomend using a Power steering pump with 2 return lines (Tom at PSC sells a remote pump with 2 return lines and can also supply resevoirs with an additional port). If you're running any filter or cooler run it off the gear box return. There can be NO restrictions on the hydroboost return at all. It must be hooked straight up to the resevoir return.

As far as that article goes. I'll get back to it. I ran into a problem with the article. Basically people where prepared to argue over certain sections I had already written and I got tired of guys who's only experiance with brakes was their own vehicles arguing brake facts with me. I was worried I'd post it and get bombarded with arguements. In the end I decided I didn't care and will finish it.
 

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VancoPBS said:
The problem the guys running hydroboost and ram system together is the fault of the hydroboost in most circumstances. The hydroboost was never made with the intention of allowing enough fluid to operate a ram system. Whereas a box takes a lot of pressure it takes little flow, add ram and all the flow it needs the hydroboost will starve the ram. For years I would never sell my system with a ram setup.

However, that has all changed. We now hi-flow out our hydroboost when we're told the vehicle has or will have ram. Basically allowing 3x the amount of fluid to move through the hydroboost. Now the ram systems don't even "see" the hydroboost. You must tell us you have ram, we always try to ask. There is no longer any need to use 2 pumps. We've been problem free with every rock ram set up for 2 years now.

Routing is simple. High pressure from the pump to the engine side of the hydroboost. Wheel well side of the hydroboost to the high pressure side of the gear box. I reccomend using a Power steering pump with 2 return lines (Tom at PSC sells a remote pump with 2 return lines and can also supply resevoirs with an additional port). If you're running any filter or cooler run it off the gear box return. There can be NO restrictions on the hydroboost return at all. It must be hooked straight up to the resevoir return.

As far as that article goes. I'll get back to it. I ran into a problem with the article. Basically people where prepared to argue over certain sections I had already written and I got tired of guys who's only experiance with brakes was their own vehicles arguing brake facts with me. I was worried I'd post it and get bombarded with arguements. In the end I decided I didn't care and will finish it.
Van, does your hydroboost system work with a full-hydro steering system? I have a PSC pump and 2.5 in diameter double ended ram. I am concerned that if I switch to a hydroboost system, I will not be able to turn the wheels when on the brakes hard. The stock CJ vacuum booster and corvette master cylinder aren't always enough.

Thanks.
 

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Well, I've done about 50 Ram assist and 2 full hydraulic. No problems at all. I talked to Tom and a couple other steering guys and it was thier opinion that Full hydraulic ram would work better then ram assist because there's no linkage. It's proven true so far, but only 2 isn't exactly a huge test base.
 

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Has anyone else on this board tried this set-up and had complete success with it? I know Billavista tried it and it did not work for him. I think he ended up eliminating the hydroboost after switching to full-hydro.

Any other input? Stay with vacuum assist and go to a double diaphragm booster? I need to do something to improve my braking performance in the not to distant future. Thanks.
 

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I doubt anyone here has tried it with a hydrboost modified for ram. That's the problem your all running into. The hydroboost was not built to allow the fluid travel for ram brakes. It has to be machined and ported for this. That is the reason I wasn't selling the hydroboost for rams tilla year ago.

I'd really like to speak to the guy who had the hydroboost and it didn't work. It be an easy job to take his old hydro, port it out and see.

Mmack, who's hydroboost are you using?
 

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madmarx said:
I personally would not be routing the power steering fluid through th eradiator to keep it cool. With this, you power steering fluid is going to be 180 degrees when it comes OUT of the radiatior. I bet you would find that the fluid is not that hot going into the rad. I have hydroboost brakes and hydro steering, but I have not run it long enough to find out how long the pump lasts.
if the water in the radiator is 180degrees, he has other problems than hot p/s fluid.
I continually see people associate engine temp with radiator temp.
they are nowhere close tothe same.
Ever notice how the coolant loop for the tranny is in the cold side tank of the radiator? there is a damn reason for that.
radiator temps on that side of the tank should be able to be 40-50 degrees cooler than engine temp, more so on a well designed and functioning system.
brian.]
 
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