Pirate 4x4 banner

41 - 60 of 86 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,140 Posts

·
Moderator
Joined
·
16,231 Posts
The argument as to the NEED for expansion has been addressed many times here on Pirate..

I don't feel like typing it all out AGAIN, but here are some highlights to keep in mind:

The idea to expand 29 came out in the early 2,000's when the Marines were being used as a SECOND LAND ARMY...outside of their traditional role. When they were being used that way in Iraq, they needed to change how they trained. (Hence the need to expand 29)

But now, With the USMC Force Structure review, the Marines are getting back to their original role as a middle-weight force. (Also add in that they are cutting back big-time on their numbers)

Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates is quoted saying, “The nation does not need a second land army, but rather forces that can deploy quickly and sustain themselves for a short period of time.”

The Marines do not want to be seen as a 2nd Army...they would end up losing funding becuase congress and the like would be saying, "why do we need 2 land Armies?"

The Marines have a "lane," a role... as middle weight force that reacts quickly and holds until the Army shows up. This is the role they want to get back to. The Commandant has made that VERY clear several times over.

If 29 were to expand...it would be bigger than Irwin. Why would our middle weight force need MORE room than our Army to train?

So the focus has changed, and so has the world Sit-rep. This is a DIRECT quote from the Commandant:

"But we see that’s probably what the world is going to look like for the next two decades. A lot more information there, but we think that’s going to be our backyard because this is primarily the littorals, because these are kind of the nasty missions and things that, quite honestly, don’t require 20,000 Marines on the ground. They may only require a Marine rifle company; they may require a training team to go in and help train border police of some of the nations that we want to help gird up and secure their borders."

We don't expect major actions. The arc of instability is in the Asia region in the littorals. Thats where we will have problems. And do you think the American public can really stomach another drawn out land-war where we go back to using the Marines as a second army?

You also have to remember that throughout most of the latter half of the 20th century, MEBs activated, deployed, and deactivated as needed. Standing MEBs were the exception rather than the rule.

AND:

The Marine Corps experimented with permanent MEB headquarters from 1985 to 1992. When downsizing and budget reductions required force
restructuring (same thing that is happening NOW!), the Marine Corps eliminated the standing MEB HQs and discontinued use of the MEB as a distinct Marine Air-Ground Task Force.




Bottomline: The expansion of 29 is based on an outdated training model from 2004-6 that does not take into account the new (actually OLD) focus of the Marines, the current political climate, and the current budget cutbacks.


Don't get me wrong, I support our troops and have nothing but respect for them, (Don't take my disagreement with the Marine Corps as something anti-military) but this expansion is not needed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
491 Posts
Discussion Starter #43
Kurt... would you please dig up the quote about the role changing to that of a more water based effort that lands on beaches and moves forward?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
514 Posts
The really sad part of this is the fact that military brass believes that you can actually fight and win in this kind of terrain. So they will fight for and most likely get want they want and send thousands of people do die based on a "hunch".

Don't get me wrong, our military is badass. But when the time comes for our general military to fight a "guerilla" warfare, the general military is SEVERELY lacking.

Guess how a bunch of camel and horse riding no accounts handed the Russians their asses with beat up bolt action rifles?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
853 Posts
I train in 29 palms (aka hell hole) for 6 weeks every year in between my back-to-back deployments. I'm a Marine stationed on Camp Pendleton currently on deployment and have been in for a little over 7 years. The land use in 29 Palms is not managed correctly. The expansion is not needed. There is so much that is not occupied or has become bombing ranges. How many different bombing ranges do we need? How many of the Urban Enviornment training facilities have gotten used then left in the dust still taking up room? There are so many that are abondoned. We don't need more room, we need to clean up the room we have. BETTER MANAGEMENT!!!

We need places to let loose and enjoy the freedom which not just myself and my brethren provide. Remember our families suffer too. Missed holidays, birthdays, graduations, births...I could go on. Respect the freedom you have, don't take it for granted. Pray for the families that made sacrifices for this country. Enjoy it while you have it. Quit bitching. What have you done for your country lately? This isn't directed toward any one person. Just getting sick of all of the ignorant, opinionated general populace that seems to want to open their mouth about shit they dare not make sacrifices for.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,554 Posts
We don't need more room, we need to clean up the room we have. BETTER MANAGEMENT!!!
Unfortunately remediation work is extremely slow, expensive and not much of a priority. If it was a chem site, then it can take well over 10 years. That is at least level 2 gear. Some remediation on UXO sites are going on over 10 years now. Some sites are still untouched from WWII. They have mustard and all sorts of other agents in them.
So, yes you are correct. We need better management and a redirection of priorities instead of looking for clean sites to contaminate with UXO.
Remember though, these sites to be remediated are controlled by the Army Corp of Engineers, so we know how fast they get around to cleaning up messes.

So what I say, MAKE THEM CLEAN UP THE OLD SITES and don't let them look for NEW clean sites to litter with ordinance. Then JV will NOT be an issue.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,559 Posts
range 220... that place its freakin stupid huge. massive city complete with about 1800 role players. i hate that place with a fiery fucking passion..
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,155 Posts
Thank you to the Marines that have replied in this thread for your dedication to serving our country. It is for you that I have dedicated so much time fighting this expansion. My father is a Marine, My Step father is a Marine, My grandfather is a Marine. They all told me when I was young they served so I would not have to. To this day I regret not serving my country.

In my eyes it is the greatest sign of respect I can give to the Marine Corps. Exercising the freedom to participate in government is something multiple generations of Marines have fought for. If I do anything less than exhaust every effort fighting base expansion all is for not.

We are taking the fight to the Marine Corps not as an enemy, but as a worthy opponent. Win Lose or draw, I know we gave them a hell of a fight, and anything less would lack the respect the greatest fighting force in the world deserves.

This is not over, we are still very much in the fight, and are starting to see some of our efforts come to fruition. With a wink at Sun Tzu "We have given them a golden bridge to retreat across".

I don't plan of stopping.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
147 Posts
I feel the same way Jeff but find it hard to put into words sometimes. Thanks for all of your hard work. btw I am sending in my final comments today, just putting on the final touches.

vinnie
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
698 Posts
Thank you to the Marines that have replied in this thread for your dedication to serving our country. It is for you that I have dedicated so much time fighting this expansion. My father is a Marine, My Step father is a Marine, My grandfather is a Marine.
Your the man Jeff. Thank you for all your hard work :mr-t:
 

·
Racing
Joined
·
837 Posts
Your the man Jeff. Thank you for all your hard work :mr-t:
^x1000!

Thank you to the Marines that have replied in this thread for your dedication to serving our country. It is for you that I have dedicated so much time fighting this expansion. My father is a Marine, My Step father is a Marine, My grandfather is a Marine. They all told me when I was young they served so I would not have to. To this day I regret not serving my country.

In my eyes it is the greatest sign of respect I can give to the Marine Corps. Exercising the freedom to participate in government is something multiple generations of Marines have fought for. If I do anything less than exhaust every effort fighting base expansion all is for not.

We are taking the fight to the Marine Corps not as an enemy, but as a worthy opponent. Win Lose or draw, I know we gave them a hell of a fight, and anything less would lack the respect the greatest fighting force in the world deserves.

This is not over, we are still very much in the fight, and are starting to see some of our efforts come to fruition. With a wink at Sun Tzu "We have given them a golden bridge to retreat across".

I don't plan of stopping.

Jeff, I think all Marines who enjoy Johnson Valley appreciate what you are doing, and I highly doubt that any take personal offense to your opposition of the Marine Corps.

After all, it would be unfortunate to return home from fighting for someone else’s freedom, only to have lost our own.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,364 Posts
^x1000!




Jeff, i think all marines who enjoy johnson valley appreciate what you are doing, and i highly doubt that any take personal offense to your opposition of the marine corps.

After all, it would be unfortunate to return home from fighting for someone else’s freedom, only to have lost our own.
x2 :d
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,364 Posts
I didn't have any further question based on their replies. (Copy and Paste, Copy and Past):flipoff2: Basically from what I've read it's up to Congress to pass the proposal based on the information they have provided to them and none of the suggestion we made were viable. Oh and I like how they have thought of everything.... except for cleaning up the mess that they have created in their own backyard. So now it's up to the boneheads in congress to decide. Makes me wonder if all our letters should be sent to congress instead? 27,000 doesn't seem like alot of opposition when compaired to the population of the United States of America 311,591,917.
My fingers are crossed for the best outcome for all of us. :D
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,155 Posts
I didn't have any further question based on their replies. (Copy and Paste, Copy and Past):flipoff2: Basically from what I've read it's up to Congress to pass the proposal based on the information they have provided to them and none of the suggestion we made were viable. Oh and I like how they have thought of everything.... except for cleaning up the mess that they have created in their own backyard. So now it's up to the boneheads in congress to decide. Makes me wonder if all our letters should be sent to congress instead? 27,000 doesn't seem like alot of opposition when compaired to the population of the United States of America 311,591,917.
My fingers are crossed for the best outcome for all of us. :D
While the Marines focused on the FEIS we have been fast at work telling our story in Washington DC. This effort continues, but today far more Legislators understand the situation. There are no guarantees, but common sense is getting the message across. The Bartlett Amendment is breaking down the barrier we have been up against.

Congress will ultimately decide if the base expansion makes sense.

I am thankful because this lesson has taught us how to engage land closures in a new way. even if we are not 100% successful, we have learned so much that will help us in the future. The forward momentum we have made is opening new doors every week. Small victories, support here and there, friends in positions of power all start to add up.

The single most important thing I have learned, is that if you present a solution they have a hard time saying no.

I just want to remind everyone that the Draft EIS called for this process to be over at the beginning of September. We are 4 days from September, and we are still in the fight. :D I am proud to say that we are still kicking and screaming against the USMC. not many in this world can say that.:smokin:
 

·
Not a Wenzelite
Joined
·
36,550 Posts
If we did loose the Hammers it would obviously suck balls.
But if it saved one life it would be worth it. I have seen way too many young soldiers blown the fuck up and shot to fucking pieces leaking gravy in the desert. Trust me it’s not a pretty sight.

Are you all that fucking selfish that you would sacrifice the training and lives of our troops to satisfy your need to play around in the dessert? Are you really going to whine and sell your buggy because they took the Hammers to better train our war fighters?

Or better yet think of your young son’s or daughter’s fighting over seas would you not sacrifice everything you had if it added to their survivability..
There are many people in SoCal (and elsewhere) who have spent time in those God forsaken hell-holes you mentioned that appreciate Johnson Valley as a place they can use for recreation. For many, off-roading is a way better medicine than seeing the shrink to get their head straight after combat.
These two comments say it all, and I respect both of them equally.

Marines, this isn't personal. Thank you for your service. :usa:

I'm going to fight this proposal to the bitter end.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
975 Posts
You know... if we're successful.... maybe we should investigate ways to make JV an OHV National Park. No improvements needed or wnated.
The Marines would never dare to annex Yellowstone National Park.
Just like they won't try to annex the wilderness areas to the east.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,155 Posts
You know... if we're successful.... maybe we should investigate ways to make JV an OHV National Park. No improvements needed or wnated.
The Marines would never dare to annex Yellowstone National Park.
Just like they won't try to annex the wilderness areas to the east.
Senator Feinstein has been working on a bill that has language that gives congressional protection to 5 OHV areas in California. Johnson Valley is one of them. I think your idea has legs.:)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
491 Posts
Discussion Starter #59
The Bartlett Amendment is breaking down the barrier we have been up against.
With little time left in the legislative process, what is the status of the Amendment? How likely is it that the Senate will consider and vote?

What about the President?

I'm thinking the lobby firm can provide educated answers to the above from a much more "insider professional" perspective.

I am thankful because this lesson has taught us how to engage land closures in a new way. even if we are not 100% successful, we have learned so much that will help us in the future. The forward momentum we have made is opening new doors every week. Small victories, support here and there, friends in positions of power all start to add up.
Please help me understand the "new way" to deal with land closures. What was new and what did we learn?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,338 Posts
Please help me understand the "new way" to deal with land closures. What was new and what did we learn?
Money and politics. If we convince the politicians they will lose dollars (taxes and such) they tend to change their position. Overwhelming support and true grass routs scares the current congress, and not to get too political but the current congress doesn't know how deep the water is when it comes to the silent majority on anything.
 
41 - 60 of 86 Posts
Top