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I feel that the best recourse we do have is fighting every ticket in court. Make Ken explain every ticket to the judge & prosecuting attorney (the judge was not impressed by the citation for the rocks).

When you just act like sheeple & roll over & pay it erodes accountablility & makes it far too easy to write bogus tickets.

Unfortunately most folks weigh the cost of the ticket to time lost at work, travel etc & just pay. Apathy at its finest.

FYI -Officer Marcus gets overtime pay if he has to appear in court to explain himself. You may get out of a ticket now and then, but he gets OT pay regardless and that right there is part of the incentive to write tickets. I am sure Officer Marcus won't mind appearing in court ~ I sure wouldn't mind if I were in his shoes.

The only way this could fall back on Officer Marcus is that his superiors catch on and see he is getting heaps of OT pay (because of court appearances) while tickets are being excused. I seriously doubt they have him under such a microscope. That could take years for them to figure out that he's making money off his overzealous signature.
 

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Well i stated late on this thread and have been scanning for the last hour.
Now this mud flap issue? R they expecting us to run them from the 2nd damn to the old gate keeper? Or the whole trail?
 

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To expand on what resqme said . . .

Marcus does, in fact, work directly for a Special Agent in Charge or an Assistant SAIC who works for the LE&I Director who works for the USFS Chief. Even though the Regional Foresters and Forest Supervisors are not in Marcus' chain of command, they wield considerable clout and influence with the SAIC's.

Now, I'm sure that word of Marcus' extreme diligence in the performance of his duties has reached both the Forest Supervisor and the SAIC. Who knows, maybe even the Regional Forester has heard about this guy. In any event, given Marcus' place in the food chain, we can only conclude that he is doing what he does by direction of his SAIC and with the blessing of the Forest Supervisor.

Sadly, us forest users have absolutely zero recourse to what is going on. Forest Service law enforcement has a less than stellar reputation when it comes to interacting with the public. I hope we don't end up in another Jarbidge or Gila NF type situation. I especially hope we don't end up with another disappearing cop. Things can get harsh on the divide.
Awesome post.

No one is untouchable and all have a chain of command. Letters, calls, and the facts are what will get SAIC's paying attention. It is after all, the "Supervisors Forest", and he ultimately has control over what happens on his Forest.

Like my mom always said, "everything comes out in the wash, just don't forget to put it in the machine".

:)
 

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n6boa-

It would make ken think twice before writing a ticket that previously did not hold up in court (like vehicle violations on the trailer).

Ken also does not like to be wrong. I have talked with a good number of folks who have been threatened to be hauled to jail when they ask questions. It would resonate with him when his citation does not hold up in court.

Further, the federal judge who oversees these matters will not take kindly to plugging up his court with mudflap/ cracked lenses and other nit picky tickets. He certianly was not amused the day I was there.
 

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n6boa-

It would make ken think twice before writing a ticket that previously did not hold up in court (like vehicle violations on the trailer).

Ken also does not like to be wrong. I have talked with a good number of folks who have been threatened to be hauled to jail when they ask questions. It would resonate with him when his citation does not hold up in court.

Further, the federal judge who oversees these matters will not take kindly to plugging up his court with mudflap/ cracked lenses and other nit picky tickets. He certianly was not amused the day I was there.
Agreed BUT it will take a long time for all of that to catch up. These people have bigger fish to fry than to care that Marcus is writing tickets and explaining them in court. And, most of the tickets he writes are legit.

Bebe said it best - the plan should be a united front whereby Marcus' superiors are constantly barraged by letters explaining facts and details centering around the behavior of their subordinate. Fighting tickets in court is a personal battle and with little positive outcome for the masses for months, or years, to come. If the ticket is not legit, then I would fight it, but the reality is, he is writing legit tickets, even if they are primarily petty infractions.
 

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No one I know is going to stop using the trail. I didn't invest thousands of dollars to make my rig capable and legal only to stop using the trail. If anything, the only ones who may stop using the trail are those folks that are constantly being ticketed for expensive infractions. As for most of us that are law-abiding and good to the trail - we don't plan to stop using it.
Personally, I plan on using the trail more.

The Cheesy items this Leo is writing up are easy to deal with.
Just make sure your rig is up to spec weather it's a Green Sticker Vehicle or a Street Registered Trail Rig.

Keep it simple
1. Check All Lights (Make Sure they are working and not missing any lens pieces )
2. Mud Flaps (Remove once on trail) (Replace before going back on the road)
3. Registration and Insurance Card
4. Windshield Cracks
5. Front License Plate:shaking:
6. Head on down the Trail :grinpimp:
 

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This Officer has already made a name for himself with the El Dorado county court house and the Placerville CHP office I found that out on Tuesday, I guess writing tickets for going to fast in a chain control on highway 50 is the new hunting grounds!!!!!!:shaking:
 

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Barb and E have the right ideas:
When we realized what was happening, we got tighter, louder, and rather than become polarized, we became one collective mass. After some time this principal gave up... It didn't work.
I feel that the best recourse we do have is fighting every ticket in court. Make Ken explain every ticket to the judge & prosecuting attorney (the judge was not impressed by the citation for the rocks).
...string 'em together with communication, and we have a set of tickets that build documentation that either change enforcement through the chain of command, or establish a string of prosecutions (or attempts) that enact change through the judicial process.

This comes down to the same thing that was said earlier -- be as legal as you can, and accept the ticket safely with a smile. If the ticket is legit... then FIX it -- if it ain't legit, then FIGHT it and report the details here. If any officer fails to do his job fairly, then DOCUMENT that and escalate it (post here for help!)

...yeah, this may ultimately mean some of us lose time at work and have to pay some fines, but united we will eventually succeed. In the meantime, I'll take this issue to the Rubicon Oversight Committee (ROC) and make sure it has visibility. Rockcrusher did a good time detailing the chain of command, but we can certainly bring some political pressure to bear even outside that chain.

I hope Eldorado LEOs enforce appropriately... but if they don't, it is on *US* to document, follow-through, and appeal through court, management, and political channels.

Randii
 

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I will be figuring out a way to attach my plate to my front bumper with screws instead of zaip ties to accommodate the current situation and as far as flares I am square. I have questions on whether I need to get flaps or not as I run a jeep and it did not come with them stock and I have not seen to many with them so I am wondering if I need them. Please educate me on whether or not I should have them on a TJ on 37’s with 7” flares.


FWIW I obey the laws and other then the flaps which I am not sure on and the zip tied front plate I am legal I believe. I am so pissed off about all this I could spit nails. I have never had issues with the Sheriffs on the trail or the trail FSLEO folks but this guy and his take on spirit of the law has moved me to the point where I am very angry. I may never be pulled over by him but if I am this will be my action.[qoute]

I am trying to figure out what the flap laws are also, I did find this :

California Vehicle Code (CVC) 27600
No person shall operate any motor vehicle having three or more wheels, any trailer, or semitrailer unless equipped with fenders, covers, or devices, including flaps or splash aprons, or unless the body of the vehicle or attachments thereto afford adequate protection to effectively minimize the spray or splash of water or mud to the rear of the vehicle and all such equipment or such body or attachments thereto shall be AT LEAST AS WIDE AS THE TIRE TREAD. This section does not apply to those vehicles exempt from registration, trailers and semitrailers having an unladen weight of under 1,500 pounds, or any vehicles manufactured and first registered prior to January 1, 1971, having an unladen weight of under 1,500 pounds.

i think if the rear of the jeep is raised above a certain height so that the rear of the vehicle is more than 30 or 31" (not sure) then you need flaps?
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I am trying to figure out what the flap laws are also, I did find this :

California Vehicle Code (CVC) 27600
No person shall operate any motor vehicle having three or more wheels, any trailer, or semitrailer unless equipped with fenders, covers, or devices, including flaps or splash aprons, or unless the body of the vehicle or attachments thereto afford adequate protection to effectively minimize the spray or splash of water or mud to the rear of the vehicle and all such equipment or such body or attachments thereto shall be AT LEAST AS WIDE AS THE TIRE TREAD. This section does not apply to those vehicles exempt from registration, trailers and semitrailers having an unladen weight of under 1,500 pounds, or any vehicles manufactured and first registered prior to January 1, 1971, having an unladen weight of under 1,500 pounds.

i think if the rear of the jeep is raised above a certain height so that the rear of the vehicle is more than 30 or 31" (not sure) then you need flaps?
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The spirit of the flap law is to protect the vehicles behind you from flying debris. If your tires are likely to pick up gravel/mud/rocks/etc and fling them at the window of the car behind you - you need flaps.

Does this come into play when you're going 10-25mph? Not likely, unless the car behind you is breaking the law and following too closely. However, in the event you hit the highway, it becomes a safety issue for those behind you.

My understanding on the flap law is the bottom of the flap or fender has to be within a certain distance of the ground, thereby limiting the angle of any potential projection rearwards. Not sure on the # of inches required, but I'm quite sure there is a legal number for it.

My take is to have quick disconnect flaps. Pull up to the spillway, and take them off. Get done and about to head home, put them on. Simple solution, not much trouble for us, and it keeps the law happy and those behind us safe.

We don't need to go overboard in paranioa here. Just hit the basics and maintain a legal and safe manner of engaging in our pasttimes.
 

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Discussion Starter #134
I am trying to figure out what the flap laws are also, I did find this :

California Vehicle Code (CVC) 27600
No person shall operate any motor vehicle having three or more wheels, any trailer, or semitrailer unless equipped with fenders, covers, or devices, including flaps or splash aprons, or unless the body of the vehicle or attachments thereto afford adequate protection to effectively minimize the spray or splash of water or mud to the rear of the vehicle and all such equipment or such body or attachments thereto shall be AT LEAST AS WIDE AS THE TIRE TREAD. This section does not apply to those vehicles exempt from registration, trailers and semitrailers having an unladen weight of under 1,500 pounds, or any vehicles manufactured and first registered prior to January 1, 1971, having an unladen weight of under 1,500 pounds.

i think if the rear of the jeep is raised above a certain height so that the rear of the vehicle is more than 30 or 31" (not sure) then you need flaps?
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I will make a call tomorrow and follow up on this.
 

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Discussion Starter #135
spirit (blah, blah, blah)

paranioa (blah, blah, blah)

basics (blah, blah, blah)
Hitting the basics and following the spirit of the law doesn't seem to be good enough in this case. It appears we need to be working at the letter of the law in order to keep from being ticketed...like I said, I will research the letter of the law and post here, hopefully by tomorrow.
 

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Hitting the basics and following the spirit of the law doesn't seem to be good enough in this case. It appears we need to be working at the letter of the law in order to keep from being ticketed...like I said, I will research the letter of the law and post here, hopefully by tomorrow.
Thanks for doing the follow-up, John... I always though flaps needed to be as wide as the tires, and hang down to their centerline, but it will be interesting to see what the actual code requires.

I like the exemptions to CVC 27600 for vehicles/trailers under 1,500 pounds or manufactured/registered before 1971... wish I had a ride that qualified!

Randii
 

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California Vehicle Code (CVC) 27600
No person shall operate any motor vehicle having three or more wheels, any trailer, or semitrailer unless equipped with fenders, covers, or devices, including flaps or splash aprons, or unless the body of the vehicle or attachments thereto afford adequate protection to effectively minimize the spray or splash of water or mud to the rear of the vehicle and all such equipment or such body or attachments thereto shall be AT LEAST AS WIDE AS THE TIRE TREAD. This section does not apply to those vehicles exempt from registration, trailers and semitrailers having an unladen weight of under 1,500 pounds, or any vehicles manufactured and first registered prior to January 1, 1971, having an unladen weight of under 1,500 pounds.

i think if the rear of the jeep is raised above a certain height so that the rear of the vehicle is more than 30 or 31" (not sure) then you need flaps?
My understanding on the flap law is the bottom of the flap or fender has to be within a certain distance of the ground, thereby limiting the angle of any potential projection rearwards. Not sure on the # of inches required, but I'm quite sure there is a legal number for it.
My take is to have quick disconnect flaps.
I will make a call tomorrow and follow up on this.
Thanks for doing the follow-up, John... I always though flaps needed to be as wide as the tires, and hang down to their centerline, but it will be interesting to see what the actual code requires.
Randii
Thanks guys I appreciate the help! I am already putting together the parts for a set of quick disco flaps. I have MTR’s (Might Throw Rocks) and they do so I will conform. God I can't believe I said it again......I have sure been doing a lot of conforming over the last few years for a non-conformist.:eek:
 

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Don't think of it as conforming...think of it as not putting a big hole in my windshield. Not to mention my face, which is behind the windshield! :flipoff2:
 

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This Officer has already made a name for himself with the El Dorado county court house and the Placerville CHP office I found that out on Tuesday, I guess writing tickets for going to fast in a chain control on highway 50 is the new hunting grounds!!!!!!:shaking:
Background? Details?
 

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Any recent El Dorado Ken updates? Is there a pattern emerging on his enforcement schedule and location, etc? Any other LEO's following suit in the same direction or is it still only a point force? I may have to go up there just to run Icehouse road in various vehicles to see how they each measure up to the 'a la Ken' CVC standard and make a detailed diary of the entire event. Perhaps we could get him to do a little rubber stampy on our paperwork when we are good so we know we are "priciple Ken" proof. Does he enforce exhaust height to the ground as well? Maybe he will give me a bulk discount for four vehicles all in some kind of violation. It's the Ken's Rubicon Monopoly game. I can't wait to get a ticket for too many stickers.
 
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