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looking at their website I see that they are involved in desert racing. I hope the advise they give him is based on rockcrawling and not desert racing or it is going to be another expensive lesson :( but for sure it looks like they build the real deal and I am sure they have the ability to solve the riddle
TCS knows their shit inside and out. I run one of their billet converters, and it has survived perfectly. We also had one in the moonbuggy, and I have put 3 more in customers cars, all running HP. They aren't cheap, but they also aren't cheap.:flipoff2:

Sorry for your problems Quinn, good luck,
Rick.
 

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This was my first thought too. Search around and you will find different ways to mitigate the problem. You might consider taking it to another performance trans shop to get their opinion too.
For some reason I'm not getting forum updates :(

Anyway, in a bone stock TH400 the regulator in the pump keeps the converter fill pressure within reason. When the full time lube mod is done (pretty much a standard mod) the converter feed needs to be restricted in order to keep the fill pressure in check. 50 psi measured on the line to the cooler is the max you ever want to see, with 40 or so being better. Here's where the mod is done:



See the plug in there? You drill and tap it to accept a 1/8"NPT Allen pipe plug, install the plug, and drill a 7/64" hole in the plug. Put it together, install a T in your cooler feed line and check the pressure at stall to make sure your under 50psi. If it's good, remove the T, hook everything back up, and ship it. If you want to verify flow volume you can simply let the cooler feed drain into a bucket with the trans at stall and verify that you are getting at least a quart every to seconds.

This is all old tech for 400's. The trans has been around for 46 years after all. Still, it seems lots of guys think that restricting the converter feed is a bad thing. They don't realize that the feed is restricted by the regulator in a stock trans, so this is no different. The bad thing is having your trans wipe out your crank...
 

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3 years ago I did something really dumb, I installed my new bling 450 HP turbo engine into my YJ - and left the throw-out bearing in the crank. The problem was, this left a 1/4" of interference fit between the engine and the torque converter. I simply didn't notice the bearing in the end of the crank (it was painted black), and I didn't check for fit with the TC before install. Human error = expensive mistake.

ANYHOW, for 2 years and countless wheeling trips (trail rig only) this engine survived with a constant pressure on the crank thrust bearing. It had been dyno ran, drag raced, run hot, run cold, you name it. I beat that engine hard.

So 5000 miles later and like I said 2 years - the thrust bearing finally gave way and allowed the crank to start being consumed by the main cap on the thrust journal. Once it started eating itself it happened fast, I know this because most of the internal engine parts survived with no damage. It was running perfectly, once the "knock" started it got worse and worse so I finally shut it off.

My point is - there is NO way in hell your thrust bearing would have failed that fast if it had been properly installed. You have an oil film, oil pressure and a relatively thick bearing to protect against that happening. To eat your crank/block in 7 hours of run time it's like the proper bearing was never there to begin with. I had a ballooning stock garbage TC and an interference issue and mine ran for years.
 

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TCS knows their shit inside and out. I run one of their billet converters, and it has survived perfectly. We also had one in the moonbuggy, and I have put 3 more in customers cars, all running HP. They aren't cheap, but they also aren't cheap.:flipoff2:

Sorry for your problems Quinn, good luck,
Rick.
I would take this endorsement to heart. Again I will say that from looking at their site they seem to build a high end converter and I see they are involved in desert racing which is obviously a very demanding environment.

but knowing that they have experience with high performance rock rigs such as ricks is a huge deal and in the end you will get the ideal converter for your setup with less trial and error since they understand the way we are using our vehicles.

making a converter work in a high HP rig that is geared like ours with 40" tires is a different challenge then a desert racer and yet we also want to go fast in the desert. that is a tall task.
 

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Which one did you go to Camo? What stall?
Mine is custom made by [email protected] converters in Sacramento.

it is a billet converter with the same features as the TCS units for a lsx motor.
http://www.tcsperformance.com/ls1converter/

I am hesitant to give the size and stall at this point because quite honestly it is not yet the idea setup for my configuration. So it is coming out of the rig again and going back for some changes.

when I get the setup nailed I will share the tech. but right now I am still herding cats on this deal.

hopefully now that I have a good dyno sheet with RAHP and torque numbers and curves they can take that data and build the perfect setup.
 

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Discussion Starter · #69 ·
3 years ago I did something really dumb, I installed my new bling 450 HP turbo engine into my YJ - and left the throw-out bearing in the crank. The problem was, this left a 1/4" of interference fit between the engine and the torque converter. I simply didn't notice the bearing in the end of the crank (it was painted black), and I didn't check for fit with the TC before install. Human error = expensive mistake.

ANYHOW, for 2 years and countless wheeling trips (trail rig only) this engine survived with a constant pressure on the crank thrust bearing. It had been dyno ran, drag raced, run hot, run cold, you name it. I beat that engine hard.

So 5000 miles later and like I said 2 years - the thrust bearing finally gave way and allowed the crank to start being consumed by the main cap on the thrust journal. Once it started eating itself it happened fast, I know this because most of the internal engine parts survived with no damage. It was running perfectly, once the "knock" started it got worse and worse so I finally shut it off.

My point is - there is NO way in hell your thrust bearing would have failed that fast if it had been properly installed. You have an oil film, oil pressure and a relatively thick bearing to protect against that happening. To eat your crank/block in 7 hours of run time it's like the proper bearing was never there to begin with. I had a ballooning stock garbage TC and an interference issue and mine ran for years.
I hear you on this one, but I have to disagree...I am not going to say a name, but I know someone that went through TWO brand new motors back to back. Run time was the same as mine...he destroyed the first block...took the trans and converter out and shipped it back to his transmission guy...he said it checked out fine...got it back put in a new motor and it did the same exact thing...pushed the crank through the block...ruined another motor within 100 miles. Changed out the trans and the converter and fixed the problem. His issue was the the converter snout was slightly too long and it beat the crank when pressure built up.
 

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Discussion Starter · #70 · (Edited)
I would take this endorsement to heart. Again I will say that from looking at their site they seem to build a high end converter and I see they are involved in desert racing which is obviously a very demanding environment.

but knowing that they have experience with high performance rock rigs such as ricks is a huge deal and in the end you will get the ideal converter for your setup with less trial and error since they understand the way we are using our vehicles.

making a converter work in a high HP rig that is geared like ours with 40" tires is a different challenge then a desert racer and yet we also want to go fast in the desert. that is a tall task.
Yup. Its a tough learning experience, but I can say I am learning. I'm going to order pretty much the same converter that Rick has in his rig. Its that LS converter you posted a link to and at around 500 bucks it doesn't seem unreasonable at all.
 

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Another TC option -

When I went auto smoked the rebuilt used transmission I bought pretty quick. Local shop said the previous builder missed a few things. Wasn't happy with the stall speed on the converter it came with so I talked to one of the Lovell brothers and eventually ordered one of the Art Carr rockcrawler TC's they recommended. Gave my engine specs, tire size, gearing and desired stall. Been 4 trouble free years and the buggy launches great. Jack swapped his out for one of these as well and has finished 3 KOH's on it. The converter was $650 four years ago, seemed kinda pricey at the time but it worked as advertised.

I gotta laugh at all you guys bagging on autos. You can pull off crazy vertical climbs soo much better with an auto it's not even a valid comparison. I was a die hard 5 speed fan but was converted after a few trails with the auto. With the manual valve body I don't even know it's an auto save for the lack of having to monkey around with a clutch pedal :shaking:
 

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Mine is custom made by [email protected] converters in Sacramento.

it is a billet converter with the same features as the TCS units for a lsx motor.
http://www.tcsperformance.com/ls1converter/
Camo, yours is from D&P

My point is - there is NO way in hell your thrust bearing would have failed that fast if it had been properly installed. You have an oil film, oil pressure and a relatively thick bearing to protect against that happening. To eat your crank/block in 7 hours of run time it's like the proper bearing was never there to begin with. I had a ballooning stock garbage TC and an interference issue and mine ran for years.
Did you read the first part of my post?
 

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My point is - there is NO way in hell your thrust bearing would have failed that fast if it had been properly installed. You have an oil film, oil pressure and a relatively thick bearing to protect against that happening. To eat your crank/block in 7 hours of run time it's like the proper bearing was never there to begin with. I had a ballooning stock garbage TC and an interference issue and mine ran for years.
They can get knocked out a lot faster than you think.
 

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i have been around all kinds of motorsports my whole life, racecars dragcars hotrods rockbuggys motorcycles a little bit of everything. i have never seen an auto trans do this to a motor, i am not saying it couldnt happen, just have never seen it happen. ca yj this sucks not having a for sure answer to your problem. if i was you i would be extra picky about everything to do with the motor, i would pull the pan and make sure that the thrust bearing was there just to make myself feel better.
 

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Discussion Starter · #76 ·
I had never heard of this before either...though I don't have a ton of experience and I didn't grow up wrenching. For better or worse I have learned as I go.

I know I started this thread bashing Kilgore Transmissions, but I'm glad that it has taken a different path.

Any way I slice it I am looking at an expensive bill. I just want to make sure I figure out what happened so I don't ever repeat this nightmare. Hopefully others can learn from this whole ordeal and not have to go through what I am dealing with.
 

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Depending on what that center main bearing looks like, you might not have to pay a dollar! :laughing:
exactly, its really too bad you don't have pictures of the crank still nested in the engine as it came apart.

I know a trans can destroy an engine, there is no doubt there. But in 7hrs?
 

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Discussion Starter · #80 ·
here is something that Steve Culhane mentioned to me. GM sent out a press release way back in the day when they saw rear main thrusting issues with the TH400. Apparently GM said that a bad ground would cause the starter to arc through the thrust bearings and literally EDM the thrust bearing.

Not sure how true this is as automakers will say whatever they want...like toyota saying it was the floor mats instead of the possibility of faulty electronic throttle position sensors.
 
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