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First, I would like to say, "Awesome!"

Second, as an autobody tech, I would recommend something like the flanging tool in the future, or to create a joint with another thin strip of metal. Basically butt the two parts together, then weld the reinforcing strip over the top (or bottom), bridging the seam. It makes it much stronger. We do this when splicing in a new sheet metal section like a quarter panel, and call it "sleeving". Ideally, you weld the sleeve on by punching or drilling 1/4" holes a few inches apart down the whole length of the weld.

EDIT: LOL, it would figure that my first ever post on Pirate would be for autobody advice...
I'm not an autobody guy (just a shade tree body guy), and always wondered about those flangers. The way I see it (right, wrong, indifferent), is that they make it easier to align two panels and take out the issue of getting a consistent weld gap. Fitup can be much less precise! They also allow you to spot/stitch weld the new panel to the old, instead of having to fully weld the seam. Heck, can't you use adhesive to make repairs with panels like that? Maybe I'm wrong?

I replaced some quarters in a body, and just butted the panels together. It took a lot of fitting, and was slow, but in the end I had a fairly consistent .02" or so gap all around. When I tack welded the panel with a 110V mig; the weld definitely fully penetrated and stuck the pieces together great. Given the curve of the panels I was working with, not sure the flanger would have worked well, and the strap of metal would have been impossible to fit down there tightly to both panels. I know they make those clamps that go between two butted sheets to help hold the parts in place and set-up a nice weld gap. What am I missing? Is a flange really the better way to do it? Always willing to learn.

Sorry for the interruption. The Duece is awesome!
 

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Discussion Starter #242
Not an interruption at all, I'm interested too. I can see how a flange or a backing strip might add strength. Also makes sense about being able to stitch-weld. Can see how these butt-welded joints might fatigue next to the weld and break. Just finished welding-up the top panels and I'm going to go pick up some hardware right now so I can (temporarily) install the hardtop and windshield frame on the cab.
 

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One issue when welding to pieces of sheet metal together in "butt" orientation is warping due to heat.
Adding a strip to reinforce the area can help considerably with that issue.

But you got it done and looks good, so no worries.
 

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Discussion Starter #244
hardtop

Got the new hardtop installed on the new cab for the first time (test-fit). Haven't ground-out any of the welds yet, and and you can see the gap in the middle between the back panel and top panel. That will go away. Think it turned-out alright, but need to reinstall the windshield frame and hang the doors before I pat myself on the back. Will tackle that tomorrow.









 

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Looks good! You're butt welds look strong. I really doubt you'll have any issues, since that looks like relatively thick sheetmetal. The concern really comes in to play with modern automobiles that have relatively thin sheetmetal. I only brought it up since you're interested in alternative methods. Since I might not have been clear, if you use a back plate, sleeve or flange, you would weld it to your original piece using the holes you drill, then still run a bead down the seam to finish it off. If using a backing plate (instead of a flange) and you leave a slight gap (a couple millimeters), you weld the backing plate with the seam, too. What you end up with is a butt weld with a welded on backing plate for additional strength. We do this every time on a car, since virtually everything is structural in some way on a modern unibody vehicle. The end result before grinding looks something like Frankenstein's neck scars from his stitches. A welded bead down the middle, with a row of welded holes on either side of the bead.

To the poster asking about doing it with quarter panels: if you use one of the pieces of metal you trimmed off from near where you're splicing the new panel in, you can (with a little shaping) fit it inside the old quarter panel and clamp it in place. Weld it in via a few holes pre-drilled through only the outer piece. Then, once you set the new quarter panel in place, you can use some self tapping sheetmetal screws to pull the replacment panel and the sleeve together, essentially clamping it flush with the old panel, before you weld the holes and seam. And you're absolutely right, it takes a lot of fitting and trimming to replace a quarter panel.
 

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Discussion Starter #248
How was towing with it?
Well the stock multifuel engine (LDT465) only puts out about 130hp and my M109A3 weighed about 16,000lbs empty, so it was pretty slow even when I wasn't towing a trailer. But that uhaul trailer weighed almost exactly 4000lbs, and I could hardly tell it was back there. Never even bothered hooking up the trailer brakes. Stopped just fine. Backing up was a little bit tricky, just because it was a relatively short trailer. The new 5-ton multifuel engine that I'm swapping-in puts out a little more power (180hp) and the new M103A3 trailer I'm building will also be a bit lighter, so I think it'll make a pretty good package.
 

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Great build, have been following all your updates. I saw this today while working in Aspen. It reminded me of your build although perhaps slightly bigger and not so practical.
 

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Discussion Starter #250
Whoa, I've never seen anything about that vehicle anywhere online before. Not too many of those owned by civilians yet.
 

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Discussion Starter #252 (Edited)
fording

Check out this video. Looks like some kind of promotional video made by/for the military, promoting the early deuces. Hell yeah! I love these old trucks.


YouTube - m35a2 deuce under water


military fording kit

This is what the military's fording kit looks like:



As you can see, there's a snorkel that extends the air intake for the engine up to the height of the exhaust stack. The crankcase vent (slobber-tube) is also routed up to the same height, right alongside the exhaust stack and the snorkel. Finally, the air compressor air intake is connected to a pre-existing fitting on the engine's air filter housing. This is all accomplished with flexible hoses.

It's important to note that these fording kits were not intended to be permanently installed. Or rather, prior to fording, the operators were expected to spend a few minutes preparing the vehicle for deep-water fording.

The slobber-tube could not be left routed up above the engine because it would collect oil and gunk, so had to be re-routed from under the vehicle up to the fording position prior to deep-water fording.

There is a drain-plug for the bellhousing (normally open) which is threaded into a drain-plug keeper right next to the drain hole. Prior to fording the operator would need to climb under the vehicle to remove and install the bellhousing plug.

If the operator expected to spend an extended amount of time driving through deep water, the fan belts were also supposed to be loosened.

The fording kit also included a mini-regulator, an air-switch and lines/fittings to pressurize the bellhousing and the transmission, but interestingly, did nothing to extend many of the other check-valve breathers used all over the vehicles (axles, transfer-case, etc.). Probably because the after-fording maintenance includes re-packing all of the axle-bearings and inspecting/changing all the fluids.


improving on the military's fording kit

I read everything I could find about how the military fording kits worked, and decided that I would like to build a fording kit that I can leave hooked-up all the time. When it's time to get wet, I don't want to have to do anything more than flip a switch and put on my scuba-gear. Not that I'm planning on doing this on a regular basis, but would rather be prepared, and I just can't resist geeking-out on this stuff.


engine intake

Instead of using flexible tubing, I'm going to have a mandrel-bent snorkle made (90-degree bend backwards & angled 45-degrees up, to a 45-degree bend upwards to vertical, to a section of straight pipe that will be capped with a Sy-Klone Series 9000 pre-filter. These centrifugal pre-filters don't have anything to do with fording kits specifically, but are pretty awesome in their own right. They're used on a lot of heavy equipment (agricultural, mining, etc.) and are sold by Cat as a factory accessory. Took that as a pretty solid endorsement.

Not quite sure how tall I'm going to make the snorkle yet, but I want to get the pre-filter up above the windshield so the intake doesn't block any more of my field of vision than it needs to. mudguppy suggested a good source for cheap pre-bent mandrel tubing (here's a direct link).


crankcase vent

So I was thinking about dumping the slobber-tube into the exhaust, kind of like the crankcase evacuation kits that Moroso sells. But then I found these crankcase filters made by Racor/Parker. cranetruck had already done this. Really liked the idea of installing a filter and then permanently routing the crankcase vent to the engine intake, so I ordered a Racor ccv4500 unit.

cranetruck also posted some interesting info about the m656/xm757 trucks, which were amphibious vehicles that were equipped with the same multifuel engines that these M35A2's use. And it just so happened that cranetruck had an extra one of these valves laying around. When I expressed interest in it, he agreed to sell it to me for a very reasonable price. Acquired this out of curiosity more than anything else, but am planning on installing it in addition to the Racor CCV unit.
cranetruck said:
Jesse, read about the m656/xm757 trucks, they were designed to swim/ford with a minimum of preparations. They also feature the multifuel engine.
A valve on top of the rocker covers (visible in image #1) makes it possible to pressurize the engine and the blowby gases are normally going out the exhaust (plumbing shown in image #2). No check valve here, the exhaust flow creates enough under pressure to keep fumes going in the right direction.

air compressor

The air-compressor intake has already been re-routed to the engine's air filter housing, as per the military fording kit instructions. But the interesting thing about this is that it draws unfiltered air. No reason for this that I can see, and the way it's plumbed into the air filter housing makes it more difficult to service the air filter. So I'm going to plug that hole and tap into the top half of the air filter housing, which will allow the air compressor to draw filtered air and will also make servicing the air filter easier.


fan

Not sure what I'm going to do about this, if anything. Would like to install some type of fan-clutch anyway, and am wondering if I might be able to adapt something like the on/off clutches that are used on air-compressors. A thermally-operated fan-clutch might even do the trick if the water is able to make contact and cool it. Could also rig-up some type of linear actuators to loosen the fan-belts. Not a high priority in any case, but I would like to discuss fan clutches in general if anybody has any suggestions. The direct-mounted fan on these engines has got to be quite a drag.

cranetruck shared some more helpful info about amphibious vehicles:
cranetruck said:
Probably a good idea. The m656 8x8 series designed to swim, have the fan on separate belts, designed to give/stop when subjected to the water. The generator belts will not slip, allowing it to generate power for bilge pumps etc while under water. The water pump is not effected, it runs on the same belts as the generator.

bellhousing drain-hole

Going to replace the drain-plug with some type of cable or air-operated ball-valve that I can open/close from the driveer's seat. Maybe something like this?


front steering knuckles

Noticed that there are two 1/4" NPT allen-plugs in each steering knuckle, and that got me to thinking about pressurizing the knuckles. Inspecting//re-packing the wheel-bearings after fording is suggested after fording water deeper than 18". That's not a particularly fun job, and and that's not a whole lot of water either. I had already replaced the stock knuckle boots with one-piece silicone boots, and I was curious to see what would happen if I pressurized them to 2-3psi. So I replaced one of the 1/4" NPT allen-plugs with a schrader valve, and then used a bike pump to see if the knuckle could hold any pressure. But the silicone boot blew up like a balloon right away, and I hadn't even use enough air pressure to register on the gauge I was using. If I put any more pressure into the knuckle, it was just going to push the boot out into the steering stop.




pressure regulator, manifold & vents / pressure-line

The transmission, bellhousing, transfercase, differentials, brake system, and air compressor governor vents will all be tied into a common vent / pressure system. The fuel system needs to be vented / pressurized separately, as specified in this service bulletin. Not sure how I'll isolate the fuel system (just haven't thought about it yet).

Thinking that I'll run individual 1/4" air-pressure / vent lines to some type of manifold, this 8-port manifold with a main on (pressure) / off (vent) valve, and then a larger common vent line that will be capped with some type of free-flowing filter. Probably mount the manifold and regulator outside the cab (somewhere on the firewall?), then just run the air supply and on/off valve in the cab another air-shift transfer-case switch mounted somewhere on/in/below the dash. That will allow me to run separate lines to everything, while only needing to put one new airline through the firewall (main air supply to the manifold).

Going to install valves at the manifold that will allow me to cut-off air to any of the individual air-pressure / vent lines like readyman did on his deuce. Just an extra precaution, so that in case there's a failure somewhere I will be able to cut off that part of the system.

Was looking at these regulators (highlighted in yellow) is a good choice for this application. It's adjustable from 0-25psi and is non-relieving, which sounds important, since it'll be tied into the main air supply (don't want to bleed off air). But gringeltaube and jwaller both stressed how important it is to select a regulator that is capable of regulating the low-low pressure that we want to be using (2-3psi).

gringeltaube said:
The main problem for me was finding a press. regulator for such a low range and to be sensitive enough to give consistent values, once adjusted. In this sense the original regulator which comes with the OEM fording kit resulted pretty much unreliable, besides other problems...!
jwaller said:
I believe the std pressure regulator in the original kits was set at 2 psi. remember that the transmission has no seal on the input shaft and thus it will leak out a lot of air and might push some oil with it. I know bjorn has posted a lot about this. and finding a regulator that works with 120psi input and 2psi output is hard. esp when the input air press is constantly changing as it is bled off and builds up.
gringeltaube then shared some info with us about the fording kit he built., and the pressure regulator that he chose to use.
gringeltaube said:
Here we go: see the precision regulator SMC IR1010 here http://www.smcworld.com/2008/e/webcatalog/docs/frl/frregulator/IR.pdf#page=1

I choose that model over the IR1000 for a higher flow rate in case of leak. It still works pretty accurate at 2psi.
All the tubing is 1/4" nylon. Fittings for all vent ports (1/8"NPT) are std. one-touch connecting, swivel-type elbows.
Even if it doesn't come that way from factory I preferred to also hook up all 3 axle housings plus the TC to the same system. Since the low pressure circuit stays open to atmospheric pressure by default no pressure build-up issues should occur...
Sometimes I think separate circuits at corresponding different settings would be a much better solution..... , maybe one day, for the #1A perfect Deuce...!
Another thing I've been mulling over is the idea of installing some type of Tee (or Y) junction where each of the air-pressure / vent lines terminates at the place where it's connected to whatever's being vented. The thing I'm thinking about is that it seems like it might be a good idea to have an easy way to blow-out the lines. Seems to me that with such long vent lines, especially the ones that will run long horizontal stretches, that it's pretty likely the lines will accumulate some gunk and might be prone to clogging. But if I installed valves that I could open/close right where they end (at whatever's being vented), then I could open-up the mini-regulator to let more pressure blow through the lines and clean out anything that might have been accumulating in there. Good idea? Bad idea? Got any better ideas? Open to input here. Help me think this through.

Might also tie the remote reservoir for the brake system in to a separate mini-regulator, so I can pressure-bleed the brakes using the onboard air compressor.

Haven't decided what type of lines and fitting to use for all this stuff yet. I asked here and Keith_J suggested Polyethylene. Kinda thinking about using the push-lock airlines and fittings. They're expensive, but am going to be using that stuff for all the air lines anyway and using common parts seems like a good idea.


links

Here are a bunch of links to fording-related threads on steelsoldiers, where I got a lot of this info. Clipped these links from the index, where you can find links to all the content within this thread and a lot more related info, all organized by topic.
 

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Xtreme 4X4 is building a Duece this week (right now in fact) on Spike TV.
Will repplay tomorrow morning if you want to TVO it.
 

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Fans

Can you not use electric cooling fans and shut them off for fording?
I have mine on a on-off-on switch,
first on is low and controlled by a temp switch (on at 180*)
Off is off
Second on is high and I control that if the engine starts running hot
 

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Discussion Starter #255 (Edited)
Can you not use electric cooling fans and shut them off for fording?
I have mine on a on-off-on switch,
first on is low and controlled by a temp switch (on at 180*)
Off is off
Second on is high and I control that if the engine starts running hot
Sure, that's an option. But for as many gadgets as I'm adding to this vehicle I really like the fact that they were designed to run without any type of functioning electrical system. So for every electrical accessory, there's a mechanical and/or air-powered backup. Has also been my experience that electric cooling fans have never quite matched the cooling performance of a good mechanical fan. Here's a link to some info about adding electric fans to a deuce though, and here's a link to some info about installing thermostatic fan clutches.
 

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Jeese, you can take and route the air compressor intake to the intake manifold. All the new HD trucks are plumbed that way, I thought it was odd but it works very well.
 

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Discussion Starter #257
No, that makes sense. Guess it's not any different than routing it to the air filter housing, and it's a shorter run. Thanks, it's a good suggestion. I'll take a look and see if that will work better than what I was planning on doing.
 

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I think you`ll be fine with a magnetic clutch from a a/c compressor. I`ll use one for my air compressor...
 

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Discussion Starter #259
cooling fans & clutches

Just posted this on SS:
jesusgatos said:
Removed the fan from mah deuce this morning and took some measurements:
  • fan mounting pattern: 4 x 3.125" & 2.1875" center-to-center (across the pilot-hub)
  • fan pilot hub dimensions: 1.5" in diameter x .5" thick
  • fan diameter: 20"
  • fan blade total thickness: 2"
  • distance from fan mounting surface to forward edges of fan blades: 1.0625"
  • distance from fan mounting surface to back edges of fan blades: .9375"
  • distance from fan mounting surface (forward) to radiator: 1.75"
  • distance from fan mounting surface (backwards) to back of fan shroud: 1"

Wondering if somebody could verify these dimensions on another truck, because it looks like the fan/clutch that Green Toys installed is quite a bit thicker than would fit between my water pump pulley and radiator.

How are these pulleys mounted to the water-pumps? Pressed-on? Wonder if the pulley could be modified, or a new pulley made, to make a bit more room?

Would like to figure that out before I start looking for parts, but a quick google-search turned up the following companies. Any other good sources for this type of stuff? Looks like Horton makes a lot of different clutches, and seems like some of them could be thermostatically and/or manually controlled. Having the ability to manually override would be pretty cool (thinking about fording).


Actually started looking into clutches specifically because of fording, and only later thought about the parasitic power loss and noise. Would have been a much lower priority, but am pretty much set on making something work now.
 

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Discussion Starter #260
LDS engine

Just found the rest of the pictures I took while we were moving the new LDS engine. My neighbor bought home a forklift to help me out, but it was a little bit smaller than the bobcat we used to load it into the truck; so we had to remove the top half of the engine crate first, and that made the engine and the bottom half of the crate just light enough that the forklift was able to pull it out of the back of the truck. The engine and crate weigh over 3000lbs, and the engine itself only weighs about 1400lbs. The whole crate is made out of 1/4" plate! It's sealed and pressurized, and the engine is secured well enough in there that it looks like it could take a pretty good tumble and still be alright.







 
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