Pirate 4x4 banner

1 - 20 of 28 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
63 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Didn't want to jack the propane thread so... Has anyone converted a DD to natural gas? If so, are the costs for parts and performance similiar to propane? I know that there are very few fill stations but you can fill off of your home line for around a buck a gallon daily if need be. :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
305 Posts
Good call. Your not jackin the thread at all. I have been asking the same around our shop lately and would also like to hear more.:D:beer::beer:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14,711 Posts
much less hp than propane, and you would need to pump it into the tank with some pressure. i'm sure for safety reasons this would be frowned upon by most. but i like the idea of cheap AND clean burning fuel.
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
786 Posts
Don't know a whole lot about CNG (compressed natural gas) but know the pressure in the tank can reach several thousand pounds. Tank is way heavier and bigger versus propane and also quite a bit more expensive as a system. There is also no way to fill it at the house and the tanks are not portable of what I've seen. this means you'll have to trailer your junk to the filling station......if you can find one......
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
911 Posts
There is also no way to fill it at the house
This is incorrect. There was just a story on the national news this week where they interviewed a man with a CNG vehicle. He even showed them the system for hooking up to his house NG system for refills. Since that story I have checked around a bit as well.

The pressure is around 3,000 psi at the tank, and it is then reduced to atmospheric to feed the injectors. I'm not sure why the pressure is so high other than to minimize storage space requirements. I would also guess you'd need periodic, qualified inspections of the tanks to ensure reliability and safety.

From what I can tell the conversion kit runs in the $6k to $10k range, which really hurts the payback time given the loss of efficiency (worse than propane) even with $2 gas equivalent (that's what the news broadcast reported).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
609 Posts
I know someone that runs big block fords on ng, they are used on stationary water pumps and run 24/7, the one problem that they are having is that ng can be very dirty, you will have to run extra filters.

I can ask if it can be done on the cheep if you like.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
305 Posts
How would you convert therms to gal as a way to determine the actual cost per gal from your home. I have heard that you can put a home compressor to fill a tank but have no real proof if it's true. What would a system cost to fill a tank at your house.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
911 Posts
How would you convert therms to gal as a way to determine the actual cost per gal from your home. I have heard that you can put a home compressor to fill a tank but have no real proof if it's true. What would a system cost to fill a tank at your house.
Simply convert it into units of energy.

Gasoline Energy Content = 125,000 Btu/US Gal
Gasoline Cost = $4/US Gal

Natural Gas Cost = $12.49 / MMBtu (million Btu)
***Henry Hub price, there are transport & other fees but they vary by utility***

Natural Gas Cost = $0.00001249/Btu x 125,000 = $1.5612 / US Gal on an equivalent energy basis.

If you look at your natural gas bill, they will bill you at X/ccf (hundred cubic feet). There are approximately 1,000 Btu/cf, although standards vary through the years and even fluctuate across NG sources, but this works fine for our comparison. Multiplying your rate x 1.25 will get you very close to the equivalent cost / gallon to compare to gasoline costs on an energy basis.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
371 Posts
Simply convert it into units of energy.

Gasoline Energy Content = 125,000 Btu/US Gal
Gasoline Cost = $4/US Gal

Natural Gas Cost = $12.49 / MMBtu (million Btu)
***Henry Hub price, there are transport & other fees but they vary by utility***

Natural Gas Cost = $0.00001249/Btu x 125,000 = $1.5612 / US Gal on an equivalent energy basis.

If you look at your natural gas bill, they will bill you at X/ccf (hundred cubic feet). There are approximately 1,000 Btu/cf, although standards vary through the years and even fluctuate across NG sources, but this works fine for our comparison. Multiplying your rate x 1.25 will get you very close to the equivalent cost / gallon to compare to gasoline costs on an energy basis.

Uhh.... How about last week I was at San Jose Airport and it was $2.49 a gallon. That is the only station I have ever seen, which is why it caught my eye. I'm from the midwest though.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
911 Posts
Uhh.... How about last week I was at San Jose Airport and it was $2.49 a gallon. That is the only station I have ever seen, which is why it caught my eye. I'm from the midwest though.
That sounds reasonable for a retail supplier. I would imagine fuel from that supplier would be higher due to taxes (since it's for transport use), profit margins, etc. The fuel from your house is bound to be cheaper since it's not really intended for transport use. I don't know my natural gas rate, but am willing to bet it's less than $1/ccf, which puts the equivalent cost at around $1.25/gal.

I'm from KC, so I've never seen a CNG distributor either. Just going by simple math and units of conversion for costs.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
305 Posts
Simply convert it into units of energy.

Gasoline Energy Content = 125,000 Btu/US Gal
Gasoline Cost = $4/US Gal

Natural Gas Cost = $12.49 / MMBtu (million Btu)
***Henry Hub price, there are transport & other fees but they vary by utility***

Natural Gas Cost = $0.00001249/Btu x 125,000 = $1.5612 / US Gal on an equivalent energy basis.

If you look at your natural gas bill, they will bill you at X/ccf (hundred cubic feet). There are approximately 1,000 Btu/cf, although standards vary through the years and even fluctuate across NG sources, but this works fine for our comparison. Multiplying your rate x 1.25 will get you very close to the equivalent cost / gallon to compare to gasoline costs on an energy basis.


Thanks. That was what I was looking for. It seems like a good source of fuel for a daily drive for work. Cheep little car on NG would be worth looking into.:beer::D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
550 Posts
Up here in British Columbia we have about 10 filling stations. 10 years ago there was about 20 .
I run a 2003 1ton gmc van with a 6l engine, there is very little power loss with the newer systems. mine is multy port natural gas injected and regular gas too.
There is 3 large tanks for the natural gas, one along the drivers side between the frame and rocker panel and two where the spair tire was.
It cost me about $15- $18 per natural gas fill and last about 150 km or 90 miles
Compaird to gas i get about 600 km(360 miles) to a tank of gas around $150 with todays prices , with natural gas i can get 600km\360 miles for 90 bucks( but i have to fill up 4 times)
the home filling station is $4000 plus what ever instlation costs
and has to be recrtifed after so many fills (i think for around $1000)
heres a link
http://www.fuelmaker.com/Products/NaturalGasRefueling/
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
153 Posts
I used a natural gas powered 78 Scout with the 196 engine as a dd for a couple of years. It had been dealer-converted when it was new, then the original owner died and his widow didn't want ng so she had the leased tanks removed and the carburator adaptor gutted. She drove it on gasoline for about 20 years and 30 000 miles and I bought it from her. The rest of the system was still in place, so it was fairly easy to re-convert. The performance was good enough for a dd; smooth, clean, and it even stopped when I turned the key off (remember when that was a problem?).
One problem was the tanks. I bought used tanks, so I didn't have the lease to contend with, but the tanks are heavy. I put an extra leaf in each rear spring, but it still sat low in the back. Also, they took up most of the cargo space behind the rear seat.
The other problem was limited range. I got about 150 miles on a fill-up and filling stations weren't exactly common, and many of them were cardlock. I knew where to fill up on the way to work and back, but in unfamiliar territory, I sometimes had to switch to gasoline. Even the gas company didn't convert their vehicles to ng-only. Compressors to fill up overnight in your driveway were available, either by purchase or lease. I didn't look into the cost, because I knew the body wasn't going to last long enough to pay for one. I may go back to driving the Scout again if I ever get around to repairing the rust, and if I do I'll check out a compressor this time.
Incidentally, if you get lucky, the ng conversion parts are sometimes available used, cheap or even free. It seems a lot of second owners of fleet vehicles don't want the stuff and throw it away.
 

·
Rotten Sperm
Joined
·
6,517 Posts
This is incorrect. There was just a story on the national news this week where they interviewed a man with a CNG vehicle. He even showed them the system for hooking up to his house NG system for refills. Since that story I have checked around a bit as well.

The pressure is around 3,000 psi at the tank, and it is then reduced to atmospheric to feed the injectors. I'm not sure why the pressure is so high other than to minimize storage space requirements. I would also guess you'd need periodic, qualified inspections of the tanks to ensure reliability and safety.

From what I can tell the conversion kit runs in the $6k to $10k range, which really hurts the payback time given the loss of efficiency (worse than propane) even with $2 gas equivalent (that's what the news broadcast reported).

x2 except I thought there were kits out there for like a grand... OR could you piece together your own kit?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,757 Posts
IIRC, there were quite a few Ford and Chrysler NGV's produced in the 90's... could any of these systems be converted for use in other apps?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
260 Posts
Why can't the tanks for propane and/or NG be square - if made of thick material like 3/8?
Too much pressure. Even at 300 psi with a 100 sq/in tank that puts about 3,000 lbs of force in the center of an area about 10x10". To make it strong enough, I think there needs to be advancements in metallurgy/composites or more $$$ available.

My math might be all messed up, it's late...
 
1 - 20 of 28 Posts
Top