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what should I do?

  • High angle driveline

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Discussion Starter #1
Yeah, another stinkin newb here. However, I'm going where I doubt any have gone before on this board.
First, I'm not a 4x4 guy. I used to be, but found my calling in hot rods instead.

I'm hoping that some of you may be able to help with a problem I'm having. 4x4 guys are known to have extensive driveline knowledge usually gained through a rather expensive trial-and-error process.


I'm working on the design for a modernized '50s grand prix race car. I will have a front mounted V8 and 5 speed transmission with an independent rear suspension. This is a single seat car with a very narrow chassis. How do I get the driveshaft to the axle without ramming it through the driver's navel?
Raising the driver is not an option. Lowering the axle is not an option.

The original car had a driveshaft running off a PTO hanging off the middle of the engine, running under the driver's right leg, and a rear mounted transaxle with the input below the axle on the right side. There's no duplicating that setup.

I will use independent rear suspension.

I thought about rotating the rear pinion down to gain some room, but I don't know of a driveshaft that could sustain a high angle at high speed on the street.

I'm thinking about running a 4x4 front differential out back. The pinion would point rearwards. I'd hang a t-case off the differential, connecting the pinion in place of the transmission output shaft. The driveshaft coming from my tranny would hit the t-case where the front driveshaft normally connects. The t-case rear driveshaft and low range hardware would be deleted.
I have a machine shop at home. Fabbing up a plate to locate the shafts and delete the rest of the t-case wouldn't be too difficult.

What could you guys come up with?

Perhaps a visual would help? I'm looking at building the top car in this pic:



I know this is WAY out there but any input you guys could give would really be appreciated. Who knows? I might even buy another Ram Charger and get dirty again. :D
 

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this might not be the place..........



General 4x4 Discussion


I think you were looking for the......

Old Ass Grand Prix Car Discussion


Welcome to Pirate4x4

:flipoff2:
 

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If you are wanting to go thru all of that, "Why" use a transfer case? its' heavy, and in the way.(potentially)
Why not a similar setup as original using chain driven sprockets and some good motorcycle chain? (maybe dual chain)?
 

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HYDRODYNAMICS!!!!


Chris:D
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
I thought I might get run out of here on a rail, but you guys would know more about odd angle drivelines than anybody else I could think of.

I didn't want to run 300+ hp through a chain drive. One exception would be the chain drive of a T-cae. All I'd use form the T-case would be the section connecting the tranny input to the front axle. The rest of the case would be forcibly removed.

The muscle car guys (I built my twin turbo EFI big block powered '65 Plymouth) are out and the sports car builders are stumped.

For what it's worth, I helped build a hand controlled off road buggy for my bro-in-law who is in a wheel chair. It's a stubby little buggy measuring less than 10 feet long. I dropped in a 150+ hp Chrysler 2.2 turbo and automatic tranny for loads of mud slinging fun. It's great for big air too. :D

Here's the results of the first test run:



We're working on a 4x4 variant for the next one.
 

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forgive me if i sound like an idiot... since the driver position cannot be changed, I would think the only option would be to have a chain drive off the rear of the tranny to a drive shaft outside of the car body to another chain drive behind the driver to the axle. If done right I suppose the drive shaft could be hidden rather well despite the fact that it may be outside of the body by using the exhaust to hide it. If it was me... I'd raise the driver position a little, much easier with less moving parts and less weight... just my 2 cents
 

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Few more pics of that muddy hottie and you just might get what you need. :flipoff2:

A chain drive is the best thing I can think of right now. I'll scratch my head and see what I come up with for tomorrow.

Your transfer case idea is going to be heavy as hell for nothing more than a straight gear drive. Offsetting the rear diff probably isn't going to get you the kind of clearance that you're looking for.

Any chance you could take some pics so we can see what kind of clearances you're working with? It's hard to imagine the plane of where the transmission is mounted with respect to the driver without a picture.
 

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you might be able to get creative with center bearings, but your going to need to do alot of work to get it set up right.

without real fricken pictures of the under side of the car with some kinda approxament measurements it's going to be hard to say what you ccould do.
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
Watch it on that "hottie". She's my niece's friend and 15 years old. I hear the sirens already. :flipoff2:

You are correct. There are no pictures since I'm working out the bugs in the design. I haven't been able to draw the differential and other stuff in the CAD program yet.
The best I have to work with is the drawing above. The driver's butt will be about 2 inches off the floor of the car. The axle centerline is well defined. That's where the pinion will be.
I can lift the driver another 2 inches but no more since the side of the car will be just below the driver's rib cage. The top of the shoulder is about even with the top of the rear cowl. The head is fully above the body work and completely unsupported.
Here's a shot of an original car (not a model) from above. It will show the limited side to side room.




I can also slide the axle back a wee bit but I don't want to make it drastic. Less than 6 inches is acceptable.
I'd like a gear drive from a low driveshaft up to the differential but I don't know of an acceptable unit. That's why I wanted to use just that portion of a t-case. They have the gears that would stand up to that kind of abuse.

However, if I'm being overly complicated and therre's a better solution, I'd like to know.
I'm simply trying to get all the bugs ironed out before I start assembly. Once the chassis is under construction making changes is much more difficult. I can do it all in CAD and solve any clearance issues before breaking out the welder.

Thanks again guys.
 

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Alright forgive me if I missed it since I just skimmed but could you try and use a 2 peice drive shaft? One that uses a carrier bearing?
 

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Cut the floor and the seat and run the shaft straight under the drivers ass. Attach brushed and you have a racecar ass wiper.

:flipoff2:
 

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Is this for appearance and road driving, or to actually be raced?

Is the weight of a transfer case a serious problem, and can you provide any real dimensions ("very narrow" is kinda vague) as to how much room you've got available in various places?
 

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Whats your buget? I,m sure the guys at AA would build ya an atlas with no low range. Mount one behind the trans and one in front of the diff. It would be expensive but it would give you the clearance to run the driveline down the side of the car. Would also give you gear whine in stereo! :D
 

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Move the engine so the driver is sitting on the bellhousing. Run a little ass jackshaft for a rear driveshaft. This is gonna be uncomfortable as a motherfucker, but it might work. I gotta ask, what the hell are you going to do with this thing, and are there other people doing the same thing?? Can you ask them what the hell they do to get the power to the rear end...

Dane
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
The idea is for it to mostly be a cruiser but it will also see some track time.
My budget is as low as I can get without suffering reliability issues. The target weight is 1800 lbs (heavier than the original) and I'm looking at 300 hp initially. It surely won't need any more power but I am addicted to speed.

If I run a driveshaft straight to the axle, the driver would be so high that the family jewels would be even with the center of the steering wheel. Granted, you'd be able to steer with no hands but the local constabulary may take issue with that.
I have found no other working replicas of this car planned or under construction.

If I use a quick change type differential, it'll lower the pinion a couple inches. If I angle it downwards a bit, I might be able to get the driveshaft angle under 40 degrees but it will be close.
The best double cardan joints I've seen barely hit 30 degrees. I don't think that a FWD style CV joint will hold together under this angle with heavy abuse.

I didn't want to put much of a downward angle on the typical differential because the pinion seal might not stand up to a constant bath.
I really want to build the car but I don't want it spraying gear oil everywhere I go.
 

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Since you are looking for out there ideas: why not use 2 diffs on each side of the car driving the oppsite wheels for a nice long half shaft. Then find a way to spilit the to 2 drive shafts at the transmission. then you could run drive shafts on either side of the driver and keep everything tucked up nice. Just an idea that poped into my head. Maybe use corvette thirds that are aluminum. Kinda like the IFS 4x4 front ends on those fullsize vans. There are pics of them that pop up on here all the time.
 

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so you are using a standard engine mounted tranny and not a transaxle? Seems like a transaxle would be ideal in this setup for weight balance and handling. Anyways...

Seems to me that the best way to go would be to use some form of dry sump oiling system. You could mount you engine lower because you wouldn't have as large an oil pan to deal with. that way you could run your drive shaft under the driver and not raise the seating as much plus it would lower the COG of the ride which is an added bonus. I guess it all depends on how low you want the seat...
 
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