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One advantage of being uberstalled on my SSII buildup is that being here has opened up my eyes and mind to a lot of new ideas, and I have seen trends of how other rigs are now being built. My needs and desires for my rig have also changed. When done It will be a daily driver probably 20k miles per year and as such it needs to ride, handle, drive, and stop as well as possible. It needs to be able to pull a 8k trailer at moderate speeds several times per year. When playing I want to be able to do midwest trails, sand dunes, the rubicon, moab, and anywhere else I can go. I want to be able to travel cross country to wheel pulling a popup trailer and to be able to get home under my own power. It will run on the most mild street radials I can find with some SX's or something similar for when I hit the dirt. The rear crossmember be a mini bumper with a swivel mount for a spare tire carrier built in. The front crossmember will also be a mini bumper with the winch mounted behind it and between the frame rails. Bigger bumpers suitable for urban street warfare will be bolted on, but will be removed when I will be doing serious wheeling

Last year I started gathering parts for a new powertrain. What I now have are a 5.3 L truck engine, an LS1, 4l60E, Klune, ford 205, and a 97 Ford front 60 that will have dodge kingpin outers.

Right now most importantly I have a new almost rust free frame. In an inspired 3 hour rage with a plasma and welder I transformed it to what you see in the pics below

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=278765&stc=1&d=1166925856


http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=278766&stc=1&d=1166925856

I have a few more things to trim off, but getting the axles off and the casters on will make working on it around 10,000 times easier

Right now my biggest decision is the front suspension. I need this rig to be as low as possible to fit in city parking garages, yet have the biggest tires I can fit. I really want to keep the rounded profile of the front fenders. Ive been doing a lot of searching and currently I have a set of 35 inch street radials for fitment. According to this thread http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=126181&highlight=44044
It appears that going larger than 36 will not work as TSM rubs both front and aft with 36's. That thread also gave me some great info on spring lengths. In the old days with 345/727/20 I weighed 2400 front and 2000 rear. A rough guess is that I will now have approx 2200 front, much of the weight I will lose from the 345 will be brought back by a winch, 2nd batt, and tubing.

I plan on welding in some temporary channel to keep the front section of the frame in line, cut off the front crossmember, and sleeve in some new tubing to extend the frame. I don't really know what springs I want to use, my choices right now are stock 77 fronts I have, 2.5 skyjackers I have, stock 7 leaf waggys I can get way cheap, or 44044's. All but the 44044's would have a custom mil wrap replacing the top leaf. With a reverse shackle up front I need to extend the frame no matter what. How far I extend the frame will be determined by what springs I use,and how far I want to move them forward. The farther forward I move the springs the farther forward the shackle end of the spring will be. As I move the shackle end of the spring forward it can move up because of the angle of that section of the frame. That will allow for a more horizontal angle for the front springs and better ride and street manors according to the suspension design info I have been reading Make sense? :confused:

Moving the springs forward for a more level spring and lower ride height will now cause massive rubbing on the front fender support and the subsequent destruction of the curved fender line. I currently have a 3 inch body lift, and would like to lower that to a 2 inch body lift by making new body mounts to replace the pucks. So Im thinking about moving the body forward until it almost contacts the frame in the front where it kicks up on the angle.

What I need from you guys now is what springs you think would work best and why?

And what you think of the idea of shifting the body forward??

This won't be a steady thread of progress, but it will go in quick bursts of massive progress being made followed by long dry spells
 

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Dude!!!! Awesome breakover angle, but you approach and departure angles SUCK!!! :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

The front spring quandry that you're experiencing is the same one that has plague all that have done a RS on a SII frame. Of course, the easiest solution is the "fang". Some have no problems with this, while others go to various extremes to avoid using fangs. I'm personally going through this myself. My current RS has the springs at more of an angle than I would like, which means the front tires move rearward quite a bit during compression since the front eye of the spring is considerably higher than the rear eye. I'm working a couple ideas.... I'll let you know what I find out.
 

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I'll assume that if you move the hangers forward, the center pin is following a bit, and you already understand the need to move the axle forward to keep the tires out of the firewall (FWIW, my 36s hit the firewall even with a shackle-forward suspension utilizing the 4" SJ springs in the stock locations).

But moving the body forward will bring the tires back into contact with the firewall again.

For all of the sins of a body lift, the one thing it'll help is to retain the stock fender profile with less-than-huge tires, since every inch of body lift is one less inch you need to cut out of the fender (top of arch) for the tire, which means you can keep a bit more of the fore and aft of the fender, too.

As far as parking garages.. 4" lift, no body lift (body drop?) and 36s.. and I'm right around 7'. I think it still fits through the short doors in my mom's shop.

The SOA/31 rig clears the same door.

Because I know I need to move the axle forward, and I don't want to bring the front springs forward hanging off the front a foot.. I'm leaning towards links and coils.

A good dual-rate coilover would help you dial in the right spring rates and adjust the valving to suit your tastes.

If-money-were-no-object you could even go with bypass shocks that are externally adjustable and make adjustments depending on your mood or need (towing, trail riding, dune-running)

Related to that, I've also seen adjustable rate anti-sway bars that serve a similar purpose.
 

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So while we're talking about it.. IF you move the body forward, what will you do at the rear?

If you ditch the stock fuel tank you could bob the rear frame a few inches up to the shackle hangers, but that'll also mean cutting the rear wheel wells off-center because you've effectively moved the rear axle back (body wise) as much as you've moved the tub forward.

If a top isn't an issue, it'd be cool to cut a Traveler tub down a little and instead of an 18" body stretch, cut it down to an 8" body stretch.. that'll make some people scratch their heads. :D
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
Links in the front are really out of the question. I won't disagree on the points made, but trying to link the front will guarantee that this junk never gets done.

I looked at my rig the other day and it looks like I can move my body as far forward as I like without concern of the firewall hitting the angled section of the frame.

BO185 or any GenIII guys if you have any pics of your engine mounted in the frame Id really like to see how low you have it mounted and maybe some pics of pan clearance and the relation of the oil pan to the bottom of the frame rails. Id like to mount mine as low as possible and still leave room for some long tube headers

The rear spring hangers are gone, I have a set of 63 inch chevies slated for the rear, but could be swayed to 57 inch fords or any other junkyard stockers when push comes to shove back there. I plan on tubbing the rear wheelwells backward and moving the rear axle backward at least 4 inches.....maybe more. The rear springs will be outboarded unless I find something flexy that will fit under the frame and give me the proper stance. If funds and engineering are availible I am not adverse to linking the rear when the time comes which is way down the road.

To try and rephrase my initial question better, what im looking for is input on stock SII springs vs 44044's in a SOA configuration. Id like to hear what is the difference in ride height, ride quality, and flex. I know you guys like the ride and flex of the 44044's when crawling, but im wondering how they would handle with higher speed stuff as well as some dune running and daily driving. Keep in mind that my front end will be at least a couple hundred pounds less than you guys with SV's. Id like to know if you guys are flexing the 44044's into negative arcs, and if so Id like to know how far, and if they are surviving long term.

Someone at one time linked a sight that explained how to calculate leaf spring rate by arch, thickness of leafs, etc. Id like to get that link again if its still around.
 

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44044's work really well as far as front leaves go in the dunes.
i mean REALLY well!
 

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Yeah?
 

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I did not extend the frame, but built some spring hangers that moved the eye C/L out past the end of the frame by an 1", as you said the more forward the more level the spring sits. The Scout II springs are shorter and would be easier to get level. The waggy's are an offset spring so that help a lot too.

I have a whole pile of springs I mocked up, but like the 44044, and yes they are almost flat. I run a 2" body lift and only cut the rear fender. I have not cut the front and so far it's not been a problem.
 

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That will allow for a more horizontal angle for the front springs and better ride and street manners according to the suspension design info I have been reading.
My current RS has the springs at more of an angle than I would like, which means the front tires move rearward quite a bit during compression since the front eye of the spring is considerably higher than the rear eye.
If a level spring is ideal, how much angle is "too much"? I'm still working on mine, but guessing I could have 3" difference on a 46" spring...is this "too much"?

Thx...R

Edit 26Mar2007: I have 6.5" drop front-to-rear on a 46" spring. It's too much in my opinion, because the angle of the spring forces you to put your hi-steer arm higher. In my particular case, it also makes the pitman arm clearance tight, because I have the front of the springs tucked up close to the frame. If I had it done I could say how it drives, but? The stock Scout 800 configuration is 4" drop front-to-rear on a 39" spring. I think I should have dropped the front about 1.5" more, putting me at 5" drop on a 46" spring.
 

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If a level spring is ideal, how much angle is "too much"? I'm still working on mine, but guessing I could have 3" difference on a 46" spring...is this "too much"?

Thx...R
I measured mine and the eye difference is 4" Steering options also plays a roll in where you put that axle too (oil pan). I did not do a Cut-N-Turn so I used some 6 dergee shims to keep my caster a 5. If I did it over I would move the axle 1" more farward. Full stuff and tire turned hits the rear inner fender with 37" But it might not go an inch more forward without hitting the front part of the fender.

edit.. Moving the axle more forward would require fender trimming.

Couple photos of how I extended my hangers, I'm building a custom bumper so thats not an issue. I start by welding some 3/16 plate the frame and had a FS setup. Phase II. Then I cut it all off but the plate and went RS. Hard to tell but the 1 1/2 tube has extra flat bar welded to the ides to flare it out to match the hanger
 

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I measured mine and the eye difference is 4" Steering options also plays a roll in where you put that axle too (oil pan). I did not do a Cut-N-Turn so I used some 6 dergee shims to keep my caster a 5. If I did it over I would move the axle 1" more farward. Full stuff and tire turned hits the rear inner fender with 37" But it might not go an inch more forward without hitting the front part of the fender.

edit.. Moving the axle more forward would require fender trimming.

Couple photos of how I extended my hangers, I'm building a custom bumper so thats not an issue. I start by welding some 3/16 plate the frame and had a FS setup. Phase II. Then I cut it all off but the plate and went RS. Hard to tell but the 1 1/2 tube has extra flat bar welded to the ides to flare it out to match the hanger
Craig... how about a side shot of where your front axle is sitting with the offset from the 44044's and the extended spring hangers.
 

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Craig... how about a side shot of where your front axle is sitting with the offset from the 44044's and the extended spring hangers.
Will have to look for a better shot, but here's a couple. Its hard to see when the Scout is not level. Where are those drive shots when you need them:shaking:

Edit Yes that's a heater hose laying down there, we just got it out for a test drive :0.
 

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Hmmm.... I was thinking I just might be able to get away with using the 44044's without having to strecth the frame. After looking at your set up, I'm not so sure now.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
290 thanks for those pics, they were worth more than a million words:D

Right now Im thinking that the 44044's may be too long for me, I just don't want the springs so forward of the body
 

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Those 44044s are just perfect for the look that I'm trying to give my Scout. :D

Too bad the scout is gonna sit the way it is for a bit until my 1100 becomes road worthy :(
 

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In the bottom pic above the shackle is extended so the axle is more forward. Also I have an auto, so I cut off the bracket with the little ball on it. That will also determine where a RS placement is done too.

I have some pic's of Scout1977 rig. He has a custom set of springs by Alcan.:grinpimp:

Yep HP D60
 

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This my latest pic. w/fresh Krylon Pumpkin Orange
still alot of small stuff to do.

44044RS front
63" rear
37" iroks

ScoutDork
 
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