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Many Thanks for the Tool

I have 4-link V3.0c and today I was telling a friend that it would be cool to have a feature that would show how the pinion angle will change thru its travel arc and also how the wheel base would grow or shrink during travel.
I got on P4X4 to find a tutorial explaining all the different terms and how they relate to suspension motion and low and behold I find 4-link V3.1 and it has what i was asking for.

This is a great tool to have and I give many thanks to Dan Barcroft, Chris Macock and anybody else who has had a hand in this!

Now I just need to understand what I am doing
 

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I have 4-link V3.0c and today I was telling a friend that it would be cool to have a feature that would show how the pinion angle will change thru its travel arc and also how the wheel base would grow or shrink during travel.
I got on P4X4 to find a tutorial explaining all the different terms and how they relate to suspension motion and low and behold I find 4-link V3.1 and it has what i was asking for.

This is a great tool to have and I give many thanks to Dan Barcroft, Chris Macock and anybody else who has had a hand in this!

Now I just need to understand what I am doing

Those are both easy features to add... In fact, I did the pinion angle calculation as part of my latest version of the calculator.








The wheelbase change calc doesn't seem like it would be very valuable since it would assume that BOTH wheels on the articulating axle are cycling up or down identically..... Not one up / one down. With the axle steer involved, I'm not sure how you would even figure it out in a meaningful way.


-G
 

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Those are both easy features to add... In fact, I did the pinion angle calculation as part of my latest version of the calculator.








The wheelbase change calc doesn't seem like it would be very valuable since it would assume that BOTH wheels on the articulating axle are cycling up or down identically..... Not one up / one down. With the axle steer involved, I'm not sure how you would even figure it out in a meaningful way.


-G
Where can I download a copy of the version you are running.

Searched here and on google, and all I'm finding is what I already have, triaged/vetteboy version with the travel mod.

I really like the layout of your screenshot above, and showing bump, droop, and static values simultaneously.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
 

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Those are both easy features to add... In fact, I did the pinion angle calculation as part of my latest version of the calculator.

The wheelbase change calc doesn't seem like it would be very valuable since it would assume that BOTH wheels on the articulating axle are cycling up or down identically..... Not one up / one down. With the axle steer involved, I'm not sure how you would even figure it out in a meaningful way.
-G
Couldn't help but notice the other tabs you have there. Looks like a rather robust calculator. Is it possible to get a copy from you? I'm obviously not the only one who would be very interested in it.

Kevin
 

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This page( http://performancetrends.com/Drag_Racing.htm )is selling a 4 link calc for drag cars that seems to model the pinion angle. $130. Might be able to make it work for a truck. Might not. And just as likely to be locked down and non-modifiable as it is to be unlocked. But if modeling your pinion angle is that important, and you have money to burn, this may be the way to go. Me I'd just draw it out. I'm good at excel, but not Greg72 good, and I'm not sure where to start on something like this. Maybe Greg72 will put us out of our misery?
 

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Where can I download a copy of the version you are running.

Searched here and on google, and all I'm finding is what I already have, triaged/vetteboy version with the travel mod.

I really like the layout of your screenshot above, and showing bump, droop, and static values simultaneously.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Anything?
 

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He was active as recently as yesterday so I'm guessing you're / we're being ignored.
That's the story of my life. I'm the guy they tell to wait when I pull up at the fast food joint. The cats won't even listen to me and I feed them. Hell, the kids are the same way.:D

I have to say though, Greg72 does seem to have made some very cool mods to the link calculator.
 

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That's the story of my life. I'm the guy they tell to wait when I pull up at the fast food joint. The cats won't even listen to me and I feed them. Hell, the kids are the same way.:D

I have to say though, Greg72 does seem to have made some very cool mods to the link calculator.
He's never made his version publicly available that I am aware of.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
 

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He's never made his version publicly available that I am aware of.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


Know anyone else that's good at excel? :shit:

My limit is entering formulas and changing the background color.

If I knew how to whip something up, I'd have front and rear on one page,

Option for different uptravel than droop,

Show travel geometry with static.

And show whole vehicle roll axis.

This way you can see total effects of changes while minimizing amount of clicks when for example you change upper link frame height, or upper link length.
 

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I'm pretty dang good with Excel but it takes more than just Excel to make it happen. It takes a suspension guru as well as a math / geometry guru to translate all the vectors into formulae that Excel can use. On top of that I believe there was also some visual basic programming to get the graphics to work. That was the beauty of what triaged and (I think) rock midget did. (Maybe it was greg72?) I don't recall the exact history of it all but one was the suspension guru and the other was the computer wizz, they worked together to make it happen and then gave it away.

I won't pretend to know their reasons for disapearing, but there were / still are so many people that use the calulator, refuse to learn anything, refuse to learn Excel, and just expect all the answers hand-fed to them. They refuse to search or read the instructions on how to use it. Then they go start new threads, PM triaged, or ask the same questions in older threads. And then when people flame them for being iditos or tell them to search they leave and never come back, talk shit about how mean everyone is over on Pirate for the rest of their lives on other forums. I can only imagine trying to help so many idiots got old.

I email triaged a few weeks ago just to thank him a third time for making the calulator and giving it away, told him how much I use it, the amazing results I have had with it, and how much I learn from it. He replied back within 24 hours to say I was welcome. He is still out there. Just seems to have stepped away from the calculator.

What greg appears to have done with it looks amazing. But I don't blame him for a second for ignoring us.

Edit: Kind of unrelated, but my brother works with a guy that knows all the hot keys for Excel and doesn't use a mouse to run it. He just sits there typing on the keyboard as spreadsheets start forming on the screen.
 

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New Version of my 4-link Analyzer & Request for Help

I'm pretty dang good with Excel but it takes more than just Excel to make it happen. It takes a suspension guru as well as a math / geometry guru to translate all the vectors into formulae that Excel can use. On top of that I believe there was also some visual basic programming to get the graphics to work. That was the beauty of what triaged and (I think) rock midget did. (Maybe it was greg72?) I don't recall the exact history of it all but one was the suspension guru and the other was the computer wizz, they worked together to make it happen and then gave it away.

I won't pretend to know their reasons for disapearing, but there were / still are so many people that use the calulator, refuse to learn anything, refuse to learn Excel, and just expect all the answers hand-fed to them. They refuse to search or read the instructions on how to use it. Then they go start new threads, PM triaged, or ask the same questions in older threads. And then when people flame them for being iditos or tell them to search they leave and never come back, talk shit about how mean everyone is over on Pirate for the rest of their lives on other forums. I can only imagine trying to help so many idiots got old.

I email triaged a few weeks ago just to thank him a third time for making the calulator and giving it away, told him how much I use it, the amazing results I have had with it, and how much I learn from it. He replied back within 24 hours to say I was welcome. He is still out there. Just seems to have stepped away from the calculator.

What greg appears to have done with it looks amazing. But I don't blame him for a second for ignoring us.

Edit: Kind of unrelated, but my brother works with a guy that knows all the hot keys for Excel and doesn't use a mouse to run it. He just sits there typing on the keyboard as spreadsheets start forming on the screen.


I agree completely, and don't blame them at all.

It was more a shot in the dark to ask for access to the file, as a rising tide raises all ships.

The math and formulas are too hard, and I understand most of them. Would just need to polish them to make sure of no errors.

Triaged version is awesome, as it takes the point locations and finds a line to fit. Then it plots the upper and lower link equations, finds an intercept point and compares this to cog height, equals antisquat.

Intersection point is instant center in horizontal view.

A couple more equations to find roll center and roll axis angle.

Most of the math is easily and quickly done on a graphing calculator.

My point is not to define equations or theory here, but to just openly post that I understand the math, the principles, and the theory, but I don't know jack about the programming to get excel to do what triaged version even does.

I'm worried any good threads like this will soon be gone after the pirate/vs fallout is over.

On second thought, the hard part is already done, just need to polish it up to add/edit the things that I desire.

Off to YouTube to learn...

Thanks for your thoughts patooyee.
 

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I'd have front and rear on one page,

You'd need a ginormous screen to be able to see something with a useful amount of detail for both. PC screens are getting larger and cheaper, so maybe at some point it would make sense to do that.

Option for different uptravel than droop,

Not hard. The latest version lets you choose whatever values you want for max bump and max droop, and let's you cycle between those values in 1 inch increments.

Show travel geometry with static.

Not that hard either, it would just end up looking messy with all of those lines overlayed onto the normal suspension view

And show whole vehicle roll axis.

This one is just about impossible. When I spoke to Dan (Triaged) about the math involved, he indicated that I'd have to solve multiple simultaneous equations to understand where each link point was in 3D space. Even for someone who was pretty obsessed with the idea, I had to admit that it was simply too much work to invest in an Excel-based tool.

This way you can see total effects of changes while minimizing amount of clicks when for example you change upper link frame height, or upper link length.

The new version uses spin boxes that allow the user to click a cell value (either UP or DOWN to change the value by 1... This allows for quick changes without selecting the cell and typing in numbers all the time. You can quickly jump around clicking arrow keys and moving links points and watching the changes

I'm pretty dang good with Excel but it takes more than just Excel to make it happen. It takes a suspension guru as well as a math / geometry guru to translate all the vectors into formulae that Excel can use. On top of that I believe there was also some visual basic programming to get the graphics to work. That was the beauty of what triaged and (I think) rock midget did. (Maybe it was greg72?) I don't recall the exact history of it all but one was the suspension guru and the other was the computer wizz, they worked together to make it happen and then gave it away.
This is basically it. Dan provided all of the mechanical engineering expertise back in 2001 and he and I did all of the development work together to release that first 4-link calculator (which Dan posted on Pirate4x4) for free... After that Dan was basically the guy who got all the praise and accolades for the program, but the downside is that he also got most of the questions & aggravation from everyone who wanted help or explanations about how to use it.

That all happened almost 15 years ago.

I hung out in the background and watched the tool evolve and get modified with Macros and everyone's own opinion of what it should look like. When you put your work out in the public domain it becomes EVERYONE'S property and it changes in ways that you may not like very much...

From a security perspective, I never liked the idea of using Excel macros. So when I rewrote the calculator I made sure that it worked cleanly without them. No special tricks or executables, just LOTS and LOTS of tables and calculations.

Ultimately, I am still very proud of the work that Dan and I did way back then, and it feels good to know that so many people have been able to use that tool to teach themselves about suspension design and theory. The stuff I do now with the calculator are for my own enjoyment and education, so I don't offer them publicly anymore. I have too much time and effort invested now to simply give it away only to have someone else modify my work or redistribute it as if it were their own.


-G
 

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if this was marketed like android apps, where everyone that wants the 'pro' version paid $5, it would have made some serious coin. (think TorqueApp)
it is definitely a legacy for Triaged and Greg72. they deserve the accolades, if nothing else, for all the builds this helped
 

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I've taken the liberty to modify this spreadsheet to:
  • have both rear and front suspension
  • options to have 4 link, 3 link + panhard, or 4 link + panhard, at either end
  • option for 4 wheel drive with drive split between rear and front wheels
  • option for front to rear brake bias for anti-dive
  • removed use of macros as they caused problems for some
  • travel calculations are more limited, due to no macros, so just calculate full up (bump), static ride height, half down (droop) and full down travel
  • added vehicle roll axis
  • because there is more stuff, some measures were taken to try and keep the sheet from blowing out too far
I use Open Office, so had to convert to Excel. Fixed some stuff that didn't convert properly, but don't know if I got everything. I didn't fix the Excel version as well as I would have liked, because I found it frustrating from what I'm used to and I was using someone elses computer.

Here is a link to the Excel version

And a link to the Open Office version

Don't take much notice of the link geometry when you open the spreadsheet, it was just something for testing, not meant to be an example of good suspension design, I know it will bind, but that wasn't the point.

This took longer than I thought, and I became sick, so left what I had last used for testing. I hope I found and fixed all of the errors, but one never expects 100% error free.

If anyone finds that some geometry causes error problems, let me know what that geometry is, so I can replicate it, and fix it.

There are some improvements over the old version of the 3 link + panhard spreadsheet, but nothing improved for triangulated 4 link design, so some will probably prefer the old version because it is less cluttered.

Edit: fixed a problem with the excel version, updated link to the fixed file.
 
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