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Pointless to argue about the materials strengths of pipe vs. tube if it was never welded properly to begin with.

Since when is it ever acceptable to short arc MIG over oil contamination and mill scale on a critical weld? There's just no excuse for shit like that when all it takes to do the job right is an extra minute of time and a $3 flap wheel. You don't think it makes a difference? I suggest destructive testing a weld and looking at how and where it fails.
 

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Since when is it ever acceptable to short arc MIG over oil contamination and mill scale on a critical weld? There's just no excuse for shit like that when all it takes to do the job right is an extra minute of time and a 3$ flap disk. You don't think it makes a difference? I suggest destructive testing a weld and looking at how and where it fails.
where you buying them?
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
I cleaned a few joints today and it didn't really weld any differently

I changed up my pattern when I weld and it made my beads look a little neater









 

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hows that harbor frieght bender working? and which one is it? Im gonna be doing my 1.5" poop pipe cage this winter and im starting to gather materials/tools

The cage looks great! Exactly what I plan on doing with mine, but in a K5. I have a 10pt cage from s&w I was gonna use, but decided to just copy it with the 1.5" sch 40
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
Worked good for the bends I did, a little narrowing but not bad.

I couldn't really do anything sharper than the front down bars though, which is probably 20*

I've seen a few threads that show how people modified them to bend better though.

I would have liked to of had a continuous piece of tube from the down bar to the back but when I bent it it looked horrible
 

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Worked good for the bends I did, a little narrowing but not bad.

I couldn't really do anything sharper than the front down bars though, which is probably 20*

I've seen a few threads that show how people modified them to bend better though.

I would have liked to of had a continuous piece of tube from the down bar to the back but when I bent it it looked horrible
bend in multiple spots, what i do for hard bends is make a line on the pipe then make a line 3 inches to the left and another line 3 inches to the right, bend on the middle line, move the rollers in bend on another line, then bend on the other line, then if i need more ill move the rollers in again and go back to the middle line. sometimes i would only need to bend in two spots instead of 3 if the bend wasnt too hard, i use a tape measure on the pump to keep track of how far to go.

here is an example

edit; you should also attempt to get the seam on the inside of the bend
 

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Hmm, maybe I should have done that at the a pillar

I think what I've got should be strong enough though
yours looks good i agree it should be plenty strong, next time you bend up a cage try playing around with the method i posted above, it works pretty good.

this was my only kink, its on a stinger though so i didnt care :laughing:
 

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If you expect me to debate the price of flap wheels, take it to the shop and tool forum - it's totally irrelavent to the OP's post. Let me just say this is for 78stepside's benefit and if you can't contribute anything constructive to the discussion and help a fellow wheeler out, kindly STFU and move along now because it's getting irritating reading supposed grown adults bicker like toddlers. Man up and either take the time and effort to contribute something factual/relevant/useful or keep your mouth shut and move along.

Now... back on track to 78stepside. First off, I am not typing any of this to insult your craftsmanship as you obviously do care about making the best with the limited resources you have. Take the following as constructive criticism and take a moment to hear me out.

First off, grinding mill scale off is just a good habit. Even with Stick and TIG, any mill scale next to the weld will usually give you a slight undercut defect at the toes and that's enough to flunk a cert test on visual inspection alone. Blah, blah, blah, So what's any of that have to do with what your "poo-pipe" build? So why grind the mill scale off before you make a typical MIG weld if it doesn't have to meet any formal regulations or codes?

(Put your flame suit on now, because you asked for it)

Judging from the pictures, you aren't really welding that pipe together, at this point it appears you're just "hot metal glue-gunning" it together. Welding is not like laying a bead of caulk - by definition welding is *fusing* the base metal and filler together. In other words - you've got to have penetration for it to be considered a weld. Don't be discouraged, because with a little practical experience and a bit of book knowledge you can troubleshoot any actual or potential weld defects as they arise and either correct for them on the spot or or at least take better preventative measures next time around.

Short arc MIG with 75/25 (GMAW-S) is a relatively low penetration weld process that is ideal for "gauge thickness" steel (under 1/4"). It does not usually put enough heat into the metsl to just "blast through" contamination and mill scale like some flux-core or stick welding processes could. Side note: With straight CO2 shielding gas MIG burns a little hotter and it's more forgiving of scale, but there's also usually a lot more spatter that goes with using straight CO2 so not too many people like to go that route.

The achilles heel of short arc (short circuit transfer) MIG with 75/25 is that unless you're running pretty high amps (and I can say with reasonable certainty from looking at the photos that you're not running very high amps) if you are not careful with prep, there's a very likely potential for an incomplete fusion defect, aka "cold lap". It's not like stick where if you're running enough amps to burn the rod, you're probably running enough amps to get good penetration. Mill scale is iron oxide, it doesn't melt like steel so it sometimes acts as a thermal barrier and the edges of the weld don't blend as they should. With MIG, It's completely possible to just arc away and melt wire on the surface to produce something that looks like a perfectly good weld (to an untrained eye), but in reality the weld isn't strong at all because of lack of penetration and/or cold lap. You can't see incomplete fusion on a visual examination. Looks can be deceiving. If you want detailed pics just Google the term "GMAW incomplete fusion defect" in image search.

(You can take your flame suit off now)

If you want to actually *know* how much penetration you're getting with *your welder's current parameters* on *your pipe* instead of just guessing and saying "Well I guess that looks OK" Nobody here can give you that answer just by looking at a picture. Anyone who claims they can tell exactly how strong a weld is by just looking at it is full of shit. If you want peace of mind - test your work. There's two simple ways I've tested welds myself in the past that I can tell you both will tell you a hell of a lot more than just looking at the surface of a finished bead. Neither way requires any specialized/calibrated/certified test equipment or expensive commercial testing labaratory fees. The whole point of testing is to learn from it and make yourself a better welder, not to just show off some certification card in your wallet.

Method 1, Cut and etch:
Take two small scraps of pipe from what you have and cope the joint and weld as you normally would. Next, take the completed weld and run it through the bandsaw making a cross-section of the sample joint you just welded. Polish out the cut with an 80 grit or finer flap wheel (the more highly polished, the easier your etched weld sample will be to see, 400 grit makes it very clear to see). Next, brush on some Ferric Chloride (It's an acid so be careful -you can buy it at any electronics supply as "PCB etchant") and brush it on the metal. Let that sit for a minute or two and rinse off with plain water. The etchant will allow you to see exactly how deep your weld is penetrating into the pipe - the weld will show up as darker than the base metal. If you see evidence of cold lap - Test is a fail. If you can't find any Ferric Chloride and still want to try this test, PM me and I'll give you a few alternate chemicals that will also work.

Method 2, "Crude but effective" destructive testing:
Take two pieces of your pipe/tube and cope and weld them into a T-joint at the far ends of both pieces (pieces should be preferably at least 2-3 feet long each, you'll understand why in a minute). Your creation should now look somewhat like a big letter "L" made from pipe. Next, take a rosebud and heat the ends (farthest away from the joint) on each leg of the "L" and smash them flat with a sledgehammer. Next take a cutting torch and cut a hole large enough for a decent sized shackle to fit through each of the smashed flat ends. Note: 1/2" (usually 3 ton) shackles have a 5/8" diameter pin, shackles are classified by the eye diameter, not the pin diameter. 7/8" (usually 6 1/2 ton) shackles have 1" diameter pins.

Now that the sample is prepared it's time to break it. Find a *heavy* vehicle with a *solid* hitch point, such as a big ass dump truck, forklift, tractor, or backhoe etc. You will also need another solid anchor such as an old hardwood stump. Attach a length of heavy log chain to the shackles at each end of your "L" and attach respective chains to aforementioned hitch of big ass dump truck and stump. Make sure nobody is within the danger zone if a sudden rigging failure occurs before you start pulling- your "L" is going to break because you are applying a massive amount of stress to the joint by spreading it (Legs of L are acting as levers, compounding the pull force). Unless you got a batch of the world's poorest quality pipe , the weld *will* be the primary point of failure, but no worry because it was designed and fabricated to fail - you're mainly interested in how and where it failed.

Did the weld slowly crack open or did the thing just snap apart like a two toothpicks?
Did the tube/s bend first? How much bend could they handle before failing?
What does the break line look like? How deep did the weld/s penetrate?
Where did the cracks begin, where do they terminate? (at the toes? through the throat? Did they start at a small area of undercut? Dit they start at the toes because the weld was made with too convex of a profile thus creating stress points?

If you don't own a real bender, you ought to be even more concerned with turning out the best possible quality weld you can. With fewer bends, you'll have more greatly stressed weld joints. Those welds are going to be the weak link in the event that cage sees "real world testing" on the trail, so make 'em count!
 

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bumpydodge, a most excellent post. Learned a few things.

In the fwiw category, if I was using poop pipe I probably would not weld a fish mouthed pipe over the seam like it shows on the pass. side. Reason being when the pipe cracked/split from a rollover on the seam, instead of bending, I would be thinking about it taking out the cross member attachment point. I would probably turn the pipe so the seam faced forward or outwards,

Pipe cage is better then no cage, lap seat belts are better then no seat belts, and drum brakes are better then no brakes.
 

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If you expect me to debate the price of flap wheels, take it to the shop and tool forum - it's totally irrelavent to the OP's post. Let me just say this is for 78stepside's benefit and if you can't contribute anything constructive to the discussion and help a fellow wheeler out, kindly STFU and move along now because it's getting irritating reading supposed grown adults bicker like toddlers. Man up and either take the time and effort to contribute something factual/relevant/useful or keep your mouth shut and move along.

Now... back on track to 78stepside. First off, I am not typing any of this to insult your craftsmanship as you obviously do care about making the best with the limited resources you have. Take the following as constructive criticism and take a moment to hear me out.

First off, grinding mill scale off is just a good habit. Even with Stick and TIG, any mill scale next to the weld will usually give you a slight undercut defect at the toes and that's enough to flunk a cert test on visual inspection alone. Blah, blah, blah, So what's any of that have to do with what your "poo-pipe" build? So why grind the mill scale off before you make a typical MIG weld if it doesn't have to meet any formal regulations or codes?

(Put your flame suit on now, because you asked for it)

Judging from the pictures, you aren't really welding that pipe together, at this point it appears you're just "hot metal glue-gunning" it together. Welding is not like laying a bead of caulk - by definition welding is *fusing* the base metal and filler together. In other words - you've got to have penetration for it to be considered a weld. Don't be discouraged, because with a little practical experience and a bit of book knowledge you can troubleshoot any actual or potential weld defects as they arise and either correct for them on the spot or or at least take better preventative measures next time around.

Short arc MIG with 75/25 (GMAW-S) is a relatively low penetration weld process that is ideal for "gauge thickness" steel (under 1/4"). It does not usually put enough heat into the metsl to just "blast through" contamination and mill scale like some flux-core or stick welding processes could. Side note: With straight CO2 shielding gas MIG burns a little hotter and it's more forgiving of scale, but there's also usually a lot more spatter that goes with using straight CO2 so not too many people like to go that route.

The achilles heel of short arc (short circuit transfer) MIG with 75/25 is that unless you're running pretty high amps (and I can say with reasonable certainty from looking at the photos that you're not running very high amps) if you are not careful with prep, there's a very likely potential for an incomplete fusion defect, aka "cold lap". It's not like stick where if you're running enough amps to burn the rod, you're probably running enough amps to get good penetration. Mill scale is iron oxide, it doesn't melt like steel so it sometimes acts as a thermal barrier and the edges of the weld don't blend as they should. With MIG, It's completely possible to just arc away and melt wire on the surface to produce something that looks like a perfectly good weld (to an untrained eye), but in reality the weld isn't strong at all because of lack of penetration and/or cold lap. You can't see incomplete fusion on a visual examination. Looks can be deceiving. If you want detailed pics just Google the term "GMAW incomplete fusion defect" in image search.

(You can take your flame suit off now)

If you want to actually *know* how much penetration you're getting with *your welder's current parameters* on *your pipe* instead of just guessing and saying "Well I guess that looks OK" Nobody here can give you that answer just by looking at a picture. Anyone who claims they can tell exactly how strong a weld is by just looking at it is full of shit. If you want peace of mind - test your work. There's two simple ways I've tested welds myself in the past that I can tell you both will tell you a hell of a lot more than just looking at the surface of a finished bead. Neither way requires any specialized/calibrated/certified test equipment or expensive commercial testing labaratory fees. The whole point of testing is to learn from it and make yourself a better welder, not to just show off some certification card in your wallet.

Method 1, Cut and etch:
Take two small scraps of pipe from what you have and cope the joint and weld as you normally would. Next, take the completed weld and run it through the bandsaw making a cross-section of the sample joint you just welded. Polish out the cut with an 80 grit or finer flap wheel (the more highly polished, the easier your etched weld sample will be to see, 400 grit makes it very clear to see). Next, brush on some Ferric Chloride (It's an acid so be careful -you can buy it at any electronics supply as "PCB etchant") and brush it on the metal. Let that sit for a minute or two and rinse off with plain water. The etchant will allow you to see exactly how deep your weld is penetrating into the pipe - the weld will show up as darker than the base metal. If you see evidence of cold lap - Test is a fail. If you can't find any Ferric Chloride and still want to try this test, PM me and I'll give you a few alternate chemicals that will also work.

Method 2, "Crude but effective" destructive testing:
Take two pieces of your pipe/tube and cope and weld them into a T-joint at the far ends of both pieces (pieces should be preferably at least 2-3 feet long each, you'll understand why in a minute). Your creation should now look somewhat like a big letter "L" made from pipe. Next, take a rosebud and heat the ends (farthest away from the joint) on each leg of the "L" and smash them flat with a sledgehammer. Next take a cutting torch and cut a hole large enough for a decent sized shackle to fit through each of the smashed flat ends. Note: 1/2" (usually 3 ton) shackles have a 5/8" diameter pin, shackles are classified by the eye diameter, not the pin diameter. 7/8" (usually 6 1/2 ton) shackles have 1" diameter pins.

Now that the sample is prepared it's time to break it. Find a *heavy* vehicle with a *solid* hitch point, such as a big ass dump truck, forklift, tractor, or backhoe etc. You will also need another solid anchor such as an old hardwood stump. Attach a length of heavy log chain to the shackles at each end of your "L" and attach respective chains to aforementioned hitch of big ass dump truck and stump. Make sure nobody is within the danger zone if a sudden rigging failure occurs before you start pulling- your "L" is going to break because you are applying a massive amount of stress to the joint by spreading it (Legs of L are acting as levers, compounding the pull force). Unless you got a batch of the world's poorest quality pipe , the weld *will* be the primary point of failure, but no worry because it was designed and fabricated to fail - you're mainly interested in how and where it failed.

Did the weld slowly crack open or did the thing just snap apart like a two toothpicks?
Did the tube/s bend first? How much bend could they handle before failing?
What does the break line look like? How deep did the weld/s penetrate?
Where did the cracks begin, where do they terminate? (at the toes? through the throat? Did they start at a small area of undercut? Dit they start at the toes because the weld was made with too convex of a profile thus creating stress points?

If you don't own a real bender, you ought to be even more concerned with turning out the best possible quality weld you can. With fewer bends, you'll have more greatly stressed weld joints. Those welds are going to be the weak link in the event that cage sees "real world testing" on the trail, so make 'em count!
+100
For a informative post
 

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Funny how less people will criticize you for no cage than the number of people who will pick apart a pretty decent cage. I think your welds will hold up fine, but it would hurt to beat a couple welds in the vise. FWIW, I usually find they are much stronger than I originally thought.
 

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Ive found that you can get 85* to almost 90 with no mods or kinks using 2" .120 wall tubing..

I tried the same size pipe and couldnt get farther than 20 or so degrees with altering the bender.

Looks goo to me so far..But i do wanna know how tall you are..When i started figuring out the cage for my truck the bar behind the seat has to be in a U shape so i can get the seat back..Im 6'3"
 

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If you expect me to debate the price of flap wheels, take it to the shop and tool forum - it's totally irrelavent to the OP's post. Let me just say this is for 78stepside's benefit and if you can't contribute anything constructive to the discussion and help a fellow wheeler out, kindly STFU and move along now because it's getting irritating reading supposed grown adults bicker like toddlers. Man up and either take the time and effort to contribute something factual/relevant/useful or keep your mouth shut and move along.

Now... back on track to 78stepside. First off, I am not typing any of this to insult your craftsmanship as you obviously do care about making the best with the limited resources you have. Take the following as constructive criticism and take a moment to hear me out.

First off, grinding mill scale off is just a good habit. Even with Stick and TIG, any mill scale next to the weld will usually give you a slight undercut defect at the toes and that's enough to flunk a cert test on visual inspection alone. Blah, blah, blah, So what's any of that have to do with what your "poo-pipe" build? So why grind the mill scale off before you make a typical MIG weld if it doesn't have to meet any formal regulations or codes?

(Put your flame suit on now, because you asked for it)

Judging from the pictures, you aren't really welding that pipe together, at this point it appears you're just "hot metal glue-gunning" it together. Welding is not like laying a bead of caulk - by definition welding is *fusing* the base metal and filler together. In other words - you've got to have penetration for it to be considered a weld. Don't be discouraged, because with a little practical experience and a bit of book knowledge you can troubleshoot any actual or potential weld defects as they arise and either correct for them on the spot or or at least take better preventative measures next time around.

Short arc MIG with 75/25 (GMAW-S) is a relatively low penetration weld process that is ideal for "gauge thickness" steel (under 1/4"). It does not usually put enough heat into the metsl to just "blast through" contamination and mill scale like some flux-core or stick welding processes could. Side note: With straight CO2 shielding gas MIG burns a little hotter and it's more forgiving of scale, but there's also usually a lot more spatter that goes with using straight CO2 so not too many people like to go that route.

The achilles heel of short arc (short circuit transfer) MIG with 75/25 is that unless you're running pretty high amps (and I can say with reasonable certainty from looking at the photos that you're not running very high amps) if you are not careful with prep, there's a very likely potential for an incomplete fusion defect, aka "cold lap". It's not like stick where if you're running enough amps to burn the rod, you're probably running enough amps to get good penetration. Mill scale is iron oxide, it doesn't melt like steel so it sometimes acts as a thermal barrier and the edges of the weld don't blend as they should. With MIG, It's completely possible to just arc away and melt wire on the surface to produce something that looks like a perfectly good weld (to an untrained eye), but in reality the weld isn't strong at all because of lack of penetration and/or cold lap. You can't see incomplete fusion on a visual examination. Looks can be deceiving. If you want detailed pics just Google the term "GMAW incomplete fusion defect" in image search.

(You can take your flame suit off now)

If you want to actually *know* how much penetration you're getting with *your welder's current parameters* on *your pipe* instead of just guessing and saying "Well I guess that looks OK" Nobody here can give you that answer just by looking at a picture. Anyone who claims they can tell exactly how strong a weld is by just looking at it is full of shit. If you want peace of mind - test your work. There's two simple ways I've tested welds myself in the past that I can tell you both will tell you a hell of a lot more than just looking at the surface of a finished bead. Neither way requires any specialized/calibrated/certified test equipment or expensive commercial testing labaratory fees. The whole point of testing is to learn from it and make yourself a better welder, not to just show off some certification card in your wallet.

Method 1, Cut and etch:
Take two small scraps of pipe from what you have and cope the joint and weld as you normally would. Next, take the completed weld and run it through the bandsaw making a cross-section of the sample joint you just welded. Polish out the cut with an 80 grit or finer flap wheel (the more highly polished, the easier your etched weld sample will be to see, 400 grit makes it very clear to see). Next, brush on some Ferric Chloride (It's an acid so be careful -you can buy it at any electronics supply as "PCB etchant") and brush it on the metal. Let that sit for a minute or two and rinse off with plain water. The etchant will allow you to see exactly how deep your weld is penetrating into the pipe - the weld will show up as darker than the base metal. If you see evidence of cold lap - Test is a fail. If you can't find any Ferric Chloride and still want to try this test, PM me and I'll give you a few alternate chemicals that will also work.

Method 2, "Crude but effective" destructive testing:
Take two pieces of your pipe/tube and cope and weld them into a T-joint at the far ends of both pieces (pieces should be preferably at least 2-3 feet long each, you'll understand why in a minute). Your creation should now look somewhat like a big letter "L" made from pipe. Next, take a rosebud and heat the ends (farthest away from the joint) on each leg of the "L" and smash them flat with a sledgehammer. Next take a cutting torch and cut a hole large enough for a decent sized shackle to fit through each of the smashed flat ends. Note: 1/2" (usually 3 ton) shackles have a 5/8" diameter pin, shackles are classified by the eye diameter, not the pin diameter. 7/8" (usually 6 1/2 ton) shackles have 1" diameter pins.

Now that the sample is prepared it's time to break it. Find a *heavy* vehicle with a *solid* hitch point, such as a big ass dump truck, forklift, tractor, or backhoe etc. You will also need another solid anchor such as an old hardwood stump. Attach a length of heavy log chain to the shackles at each end of your "L" and attach respective chains to aforementioned hitch of big ass dump truck and stump. Make sure nobody is within the danger zone if a sudden rigging failure occurs before you start pulling- your "L" is going to break because you are applying a massive amount of stress to the joint by spreading it (Legs of L are acting as levers, compounding the pull force). Unless you got a batch of the world's poorest quality pipe , the weld *will* be the primary point of failure, but no worry because it was designed and fabricated to fail - you're mainly interested in how and where it failed.

Did the weld slowly crack open or did the thing just snap apart like a two toothpicks?
Did the tube/s bend first? How much bend could they handle before failing?
What does the break line look like? How deep did the weld/s penetrate?
Where did the cracks begin, where do they terminate? (at the toes? through the throat? Did they start at a small area of undercut? Dit they start at the toes because the weld was made with too convex of a profile thus creating stress points?

If you don't own a real bender, you ought to be even more concerned with turning out the best possible quality weld you can. With fewer bends, you'll have more greatly stressed weld joints. Those welds are going to be the weak link in the event that cage sees "real world testing" on the trail, so make 'em count!

you dont need to remove mill scale with ER70S-6 MIG wire or flux core wire or using 6010 stick, but it is better if you do.
 
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