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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I've been researching hydro assist systems and I'm to the point where I'm ready to pull the trigger. I plan to run a Saginaw P pump with an external reservoir, which will feed my stock gear box and a 1.5" x 8" PSC cylinder.

There's a handful of different Sag pumps pending the OEM vehicle application. I want to make sure I get the one that has the appropriate pressure and flow rate. See the charts below from the Billavista Tech article:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/PR-Hydro_Steering/P%20pumps%201.jpg

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/PR-Hydro_Steering/P%20pumps%202.jpg

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/PR-Hydro_Steering/P%20pumps%203.jpg

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/PR-Hydro_Steering/P%20pumps%204.jpg

More pressure and flow is typically better, but I don't want to over pressurize my stock gearbox. I haven't found any numbers to show what my stock pressure and flow is.

Does anyone know the output numbers for my stock (4.0L OHV) pump? Has anyone blown the seals out of their stock gear box from an over-performing pump?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
From what I've read, the bracket requires some trimming. Aside from that, it should be a bolt in deal with a small horseshoe shaped adapter.

Just for clarity on my application, it's an OEM 96 Ranger steering gear box (truck came with a 3.0L engine if that matters) and I'm running a 97 OHV 4.0L engine and corresponding PS pump out of an Explorer right now.
 

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bray d, no issues with that box in your truck. basically the box is the same from crown vic to 1 tons...save for reverse swing etc.


one from a fullsize ford or gm van preferably with a remote reservoir if it were me.


and i would use a double ended ram if i could just like if i were doing full hydro.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Good to hear, Bobby. Of the links I previously posted, this one has the part number for the highest performance Sag pump (3.1-3.5 flow, 1350-1400 pressure):

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/PR-Hydro_Steering/P%20pumps%202.jpg

According to that, it's application is for full size GM and Ford vans. You were spot on.

Newstar number S-A386 looks to be the ticket for a new pump. Unfortunately, I haven't found any place that sells it just yet. This place has the runner up (S-A384 2.4-2.8 flow, 1350-1450 pressure), but not the 386:

S-A384 by NEWSTAR - POWER STEERING PUMP

At 170 bucks, I'm getting close to the price of a PSC overhauled unit. I shot them an email inquiring about the pressure/flow of their pump, but I never got a response.

PSC Hi Performance P-Series Pump with Remote Can

Any thoughts on reman vs new OEM replacement vs a PSC unit? I'd imagine the customer support through PSC would be most excellent, however their lack of response to my email inquiry has me a bit skittish (they've replied to my previous emails - they're avoiding this one for some reason).
 

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with the various issues i have heard with each of the hydro steering vendors, i almost think its best to build your own, and know it inside and out vs. relying on decent customer service in this day and age.
 

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i use the reman van stuff in my truck....its a roll of the dice on the best of days. but i also have hydroboost brakes. their output is not an issue with the ford box.

i run a 79 ford box...the big 150/bronco bastard. not real cheap and easy to get these days. but my ranger is not exactly typical and engine selection mandated an outside the rail box.

i have considered going back to the gm box and a smaller radiator just so its cheaper and easier to get parts. in that light running a vic box in the rail is also possible.

since your content with the 4.0 those options are not necessary, but remember going to a different box for a optimal system is something to consider depending on goals..


the problem running custom shit from psc, is it is custom shit from psc.

and i drive a shit ton of miles, and at the end of it all still found it acceptable to go with sketchy autozone/advanced auto reman junk. because i know i can get it almost anywhere...and i fawk up everything and regularly use warranties. psc has outstanding customer service, but its beyond my needs on the all around. if i had a trailered competition vehicle they are on my list of need to haves.

nothing worse though then putting brand new non functioning junk on your truck 3 times in a day on the side of the road...
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Good info regarding the box itself. My stock setup has sufficed with 37's for 5 years now, so I'm just looking for a slight increase in performance to make life a little better. My goal is to be able to steer in Moab without having to be rolling. I'm hoping a Sag pump and small assist cylinder will get me there.

nothing worse though then putting brand new non functioning junk on your truck 3 times in a day on the side of the road...
This is what I'm trying to avoid. My truck sees a lot of road miles as well, many of which are acquired during cross country wheeling trips. I don't want to be stuck in BFE Nebraska at 2a with a non functioning reman piece of shit.

If I could find a new OEM replacement 3.1-3.5 (gpm?, lpm?), 1350-1450 (psi?) pump, there wouldn't even be a question. Since I'm stuggling to find one of those, it seems my options are to go with a reman, PSC, or 'settle' for a new OEM replacement 2.4-2.8, 1350-1450 pump.

Decisions decisions.
 

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and i would use a double ended ram if i could just like if i were doing full hydro.
Don't you run into ackerman issues doing this? On a trail-only rig, this doesn't make a huge difference, but on a street driven rig, you run into scrubbing issues.

Good to hear, Bobby. Of the links I previously posted, this one has the part number for the highest performance Sag pump (3.1-3.5 flow, 1350-1400 pressure):

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/PR-Hydro_Steering/P%20pumps%202.jpg

According to that, it's application is for full size GM and Ford vans. You were spot on.

Newstar number S-A386 looks to be the ticket for a new pump. Unfortunately, I haven't found any place that sells it just yet. This place has the runner up (S-A384 2.4-2.8 flow, 1350-1450 pressure), but not the 386:

S-A384 by NEWSTAR - POWER STEERING PUMP

At 170 bucks, I'm getting close to the price of a PSC overhauled unit. I shot them an email inquiring about the pressure/flow of their pump, but I never got a response.

PSC Hi Performance P-Series Pump with Remote Can

Any thoughts on reman vs new OEM replacement vs a PSC unit? I'd imagine the customer support through PSC would be most excellent, however their lack of response to my email inquiry has me a bit skittish (they've replied to my previous emails - they're avoiding this one for some reason).
I have similar thoughts as above to the PSC unit. It's a cobbled together PS pump that was re-engineered by a company that has a far smaller knowledge base than GM and Ford. Sure, it's exactly what you need, but I'd rather have a new or remanufactured ACDelco pump of OEM quality that is to the GM specification. If there's one thing I've learned since being in the automotive industry, it's that you just can't beat the quality of OEM in the aftermarket for replacement or new parts.

Not to mention, PSC does not really take into account longevity of their components after doing the modifications that they do. Granted, what you're using any power steering parts for is far beyond what the OEM designed them, it's still safer to stay within the design tolerances in my opinion. Let me just say this, my new pump and hydro assist setup does not whine one single bit on the trails and does not get excessively hot with the cooler I've chose, even without an auxiliary reservoir.

Good info regarding the box itself. My stock setup has sufficed with 37's for 5 years now, so I'm just looking for a slight increase in performance to make life a little better. My goal is to be able to steer in Moab without having to be rolling. I'm hoping a Sag pump and small assist cylinder will get me there.



This is what I'm trying to avoid. My truck sees a lot of road miles as well, many of which are acquired during cross country wheeling trips. I don't want to be stuck in BFE Nebraska at 2a with a non functioning reman piece of shit.

If I could find a new OEM replacement 3.1-3.5 (gpm?, lpm?), 1350-1450 (psi?) pump, there wouldn't even be a question. Since I'm stuggling to find one of those, it seems my options are to go with a reman, PSC, or 'settle' for a new OEM replacement 2.4-2.8, 1350-1450 pump.

Decisions decisions.
So, I did some research on this before I pulled the trigger on my pump after my first pump bit the dust. From what I understand, any Hydroboost pump for a GM application with a steering box (not rack & pinion) after the 2000s (ish) has even higher pressure output. GM 20832683, for example, is from a 2009+ 1 ton Express Van w/ Hydroboost and puts out 1425psi to 1525psi (verified to the GM print that I have at work). It also meets the same flow as the other pumps you posted and has a remote reservoir can on it (similar to the PSC can, but with a barb fitting instead of the -AN fitting). This one is $168 on rockauto after core.



GM 20756715 is what I ultimately ended up purchasing. It is from a 2006 Silverado 2500HD 6.0L truck w/ Hydroboost. It does not have the reservoir can you're looking for but it is brand new, not remanufactured. It's approximately $130 and you'd have to buy a separate can from PSC or something to make it fit in your application (I think). Still, you're under $200 for the whole setup and it's a brand new pump. The research I did at the time put this between 1500-1600psi, but I'm now starting to doubt the numbers are that high, so I think they match the Express van output numbers.



The nice thing about any of these pumps is that you can pretty much find a remanfuactured replacement anywhere if yours fails remotely and they'll get you home. Just ask for a 1999+ GM 2500/3500 6.0L power steering pump (for Hydroboost) and you're good.


As for the extra reservoir barb for Hydroboost, just cap it off if you're not using it.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Absolutely awesome info.

The hydroboost barb is simply a return line, correct? If that's the case, I don't have any issues with capping it. My only concern is having enough room for the additional port on the cap. Here's a link to the pump install on a 4.0L bracket:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/ford/1074773-91-exploder-1-ton-swap.html#post14509996

I'd hate to trim more than is necessary simply to accommodate something that I don't plan to use. The option of hydroboost down the road would be nice, but I have no ambitions of pursuing that at the moment.
 

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Don't you run into ackerman issues doing this? On a trail-only rig, this doesn't make a huge difference, but on a street driven rig, you run into scrubbing issues.

.


thats a depends answer.
you could....


but if you run the d/a ram attached to the factory tie rod, you have a even setup for push-pull and speed.

with certain hi-steer scenarios there are ackerman issues ram or no ram.

just depends on the actual geometry with the parts involved.



hydroboost brakes can work great, but they are a bad idea in terms of complicating shit if you dont need them. i have a diesel so it is useful.

stealing a can off a pump for a couple of bux at the junkyard once you fit up your pump and know exactly what you need is a good way to go...just go look at them in safaris and trucks and fullsize vans and see what you like.
 

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Absolutely awesome info.

The hydroboost barb is simply a return line, correct? If that's the case, I don't have any issues with capping it. My only concern is having enough room for the additional port on the cap. Here's a link to the pump install on a 4.0L bracket:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/ford/1074773-91-exploder-1-ton-swap.html#post14509996

I'd hate to trim more than is necessary simply to accommodate something that I don't plan to use. The option of hydroboost down the road would be nice, but I have no ambitions of pursuing that at the moment.
Correct, the barb for hydroboost is just for return. You could even chop it off and weld it closed, but you'd still have to take the can off to do that (or risk melting the seals).

I think the best plan would be to get whichever pump you decide and go junkyard hunting. As was stated above, the Express Vans and Safari/Astro vans should all have a similar remote reservoir can. And for those with hydrboost, the return is on the reservoir so you don't have to worry about unnecessary barbs on the can.

Or if it's worth the $45 for you, just grab the PSC -AN fitting can.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Or if it's worth the $45 for you, just grab the PSC -AN fitting can.
Exactly.

The more I think about it, the more I'm leaning towards just getting the PSC can. I struggle to find time to go junkyard hunting, and I've had minimal success at local yards in the past.

It would be a two fold win. No junkyard hunting, and I wouldn't have any unnecessary inlets to worry about. I'd prefer the return line to be on the reservoir anyways, that way I'm always circulating all of the fluid. A cursory search shows that swapping cans is easy peasy.

All of this jazz is starting to make more and more sense to me. I'll see if I can pull together my proposed purchase list tonight so you guys can check it out before I commit to buy.

Thanks for all of the input. I'm learning a lot.
 

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The ONLY thing that worries me about the PSC can is that the return from the power steering box must go into the external reservoir so in order to keep the pump from cavitating, the pump's inlet must be constantly submerged in fluid.

I think I ran into an issue with this when I first designed my system because I capped the inlet on the pump's can and put the return in the external reservoir. But I think the reservoir cans are designed so that the return line into the can feeds directly towards the pump inlet, so that at high RPMs the pump isn't starved for fluid and cavitating.

You can see how I first designed the system here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/dtn33xxy0pfg709/Plumbing-3.png?dl=0

And then how I redesigned the system when I replaced the power steering pump here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/unj427aq701i6lf/Plumbing-1.png?dl=0

Anyway, shortly after I did the first setup, the pump started whining more and more loudly even under no load (but at high RPM). I'm not sure if it was just coincidence that the pump was at the end of it's life, if the modification to the orifice size was the culprit, or if my plumbing actually caused the issue.

Anyway, I think the cans designed for external reservoirs are designed so that there's sufficient volume around the pump's inlet to draw from to eliminate this problem. To be on the safe side, go with the larger -AN fitting that PSC offers, as that will allow more fluid to flow from the external reservoir and into the pump can more quickly at high RPM.

Really just some food for thought. Certainly hundreds of people are using the PSC pump with the -AN fitting can and hundreds of thousands, if not millions, are using the GM external reservoir can, so you must be safe going that route.
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
That's a valid concern, but I'm hoping they've done their homework with the dedicated remote resi cans. The reservoir I'm looking at has a return port on it, so it's driving my decision to a certain extent.

Without further ado, this is what I'm currently considering as my system:

Same P Pump as DMANbluesfreak suggested. New condition and higher performance numbers than anything shown in the Billavista articles. GM 20756715

PSC Cap with #12 feed:

Remote Fill P Pump Reservoir Can # 12 JIC Feed Oaring Side : Off-road Steering Components | Reservoirs and Coolers | Reservoir Cans | PSC Motorsports - performance power steering

Resi with internal filter. Gives me a serviceable system without taking up too much space. #12 feed #8 return.

Gen IV 6" Reservoir with Filter-SR146 : Reservoirs and Coolers, Standard Reservoirs | PSC Motorsports - performance steering components

4 pass 8" Derale power steering cooler. Should provide far more cooling than a single pass heat sink style unit, and they're pretty cheap.

Derale Performance Power Steering Cooler Kits 13212 - Free Shipping on Orders Over $99 at Summit Racing

Cylinder (already in my possession):

1.5" x 8" Assist Cylinder-zSC2200K : Cylinders, Assist Cylinders | PSC Motorsports - performance steering components, power steering

That puts me at damn near 400 bucks (without the cylinder - I already have it). I don't think that's too bad, considering the fancy filter/res.

I'll still have hoses, fittings, pulley, and adapter to buy, but I should be able to pull everything together for right around 500 bucks.

Someone convince me to do something different. :flipoff2:
 

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Do it! Check local hydraulic repair shops, they can probably crimp you the exact connections you need to the proper pressure hose at the exact length you want cheaper than piecing it together from a predefined length of hose w/ NPT fittings on each end and associated adapters purchased online.
 

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Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
Good tech in here, Brayd please keep us updated on what you go with and how it works out
Will do for sure. I dug for a thread like this for months during my research. I plan to bring this one full circle for reference in the future.

I held off on ordering parts so the weekend crew could get their $.02 in if they wanted to. Looks like I should move forward with an order.

DMANbluesfreak - Do you have a supplier for the new GM 20756715 pump? RockAuto sells new Cardone pumps, but they're cheaper than the AC Delco remans. What's the deal?

2006 CHEVROLET SILVERADO 2500 6.0L V8 Power Steering Pump | RockAuto
 
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