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Looking good Bray. Hopefully Derek is joining you this weekend, he's been PATIENTLY waiting on me to get done, but I've been taking forever with little things to get done.

Also, I was the one who was commenting on your IG about forming steel with individual hits. You can form a radius with multiple single hits on a piece of steel in a press, just have to space out the hits properly. Figuring out the spacing takes some experimenting, but ultimately you want a template of some sort with your radius on it, and you use the template to check your overall bend after each hit. I can send some pictures to you if that would help.
 

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Looking good Bray. Hopefully Derek is joining you this weekend, he's been PATIENTLY waiting on me to get done, but I've been taking forever with little things to get done.
I am going this weekend, but I'll likely be able to go again for your shakedown. :grinpimp:
 

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Discussion Starter #203
@Grohe Thanks man. I'm excited to get it bled and take it for a spin this evening. Derek will be joining me indeed. I'm looking forward to a day in the woods.

Regarding the bending technique, that's what I assumed was happening. With my air bending setup, I would have to space the hits out pretty far to ensure I was fully engaging my lower die. For those bumpers I was making, I used a 1.5" radius. Pretty tight for bump bending like that, though I'm sure it works pretty well for larger stuff. Come to think of it, I actually used that technique last summer when making some straps to secure a couple mini-kegs turned fuel tanks onto my brother's lawn mower. I ended up laying out the hit locations and angles in CAD. Worked pretty well. Zero scrap.

/tangent
 

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Discussion Starter #204 (Edited)
Last weekend was a success. Lots of rocks, super steep ledges (using my bumper as an excavator, per typical), etc. No oil starvation or drama whatsoever.

The relief on the top purged some fluid when on the steep inclines, but it was simply finding its natural 'full' level. Now that I know the happy fluid level, I can see if it'll be sufficient to feed a cylinder or if I'll have to add volume to the reservoir.

None of us took many pics, but here's one for good measure. (Dodge is the 2006 TTC contender)

 

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Discussion Starter #205 (Edited)
I got my gauges installed so I could monitor real time temp.

Air core PS fluid temp, mechanical engine oil pressure, air core engine coolant temp



I wired everything to switched power, so the back lights are on all of the time. I didn't want to dick with wiring the lights separate from the gauges.

I tried multiple LED's and landed on these guys in the 6000k flavor:

Link to Superbright LEDs

30 lumens is about perfect. I tried brighter ones, but it was too distracting at night. These light up well without being overwhelming.

I noticed that the PS temp doesn't even register on the gauge during normal operating conditions. My infrared temp gun put the reservoir at 70° or so. I put a piece of cardboard in front of my cooler, wrapped my reservoir in a koozie, then drove it for a good while. Temps barely reached the first tick mark, which is about 120°. I'm anxious to see what it does when aired down locked up and crawling.

It also looks like my thermostat may be stuck open as the engine was sitting at 150°.

Temps have been dropping, and it looks like we're stuck in the single digits (and below) for this coming week. I fired up the truck over the weekend to plow some snow and noticed some cavitation during startup. It was approx 10° outside and it cavitated for 2-3 seconds before going silent.

This morning was super cold.



After noticing the cavitation over the weekend, I thought the bypass valve may have been holding slight vacuum on the reservoir causing issues at startup. I eliminated that variable by pulling the cap off before starting it today.

It was bad. It squealed for probably 10 seconds, which seemed like an eternity. Long enough that I considered shutting it down. By the time I made up my mind, it went silent again. Drove it into work.

I suppose it's good to know that the check valve / bypass valve arrangement isn't causing issues.

I'm running Swepco 715 and I haven't found any info regarding operating temperature. I wonder if a different fluid would perform better at arctic temps.

Edit: Went for a cruise during lunch. 5° ambient temp. Fired right up with no squealing. I guess the heat soak from the drive in this morning coupled with the slightly higher temps (and sitting in the sun) was enough to keep everything happy.
 

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Discussion Starter #207 (Edited)
Thanks man. I'll keep it updated as things progress.

I planned on pulling my box for the drill/tap op the day after Christmas, but these single digit temps have me a bit skittish.
 

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One thing that used to happen on mine in temps below ~15degrees was the screw on hydraulic filter I was using would force fluid past the seal. It was so bad on really cold days that I had to bypass the filter. I think the fluid is just so thick that there's no way around it when it's really cold, but definitely stick the bypass back in if you havent.
 

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Discussion Starter #210 (Edited)
Oh yeah, it's fully assembled. I just took the whole reservoir cap off during startup to see if it helped. No luck.

EDIT: Fired up the rig after work (after sitting all day) to go explore in the snow. Temps in the high teens. Cavitated for a split second. Not bad, but I still don't like it.

The high is 7° tomorrow and 6° on Sunday. I have plans to do a 'controlled' cold weather flow test with both Swepco715 and ATF.
 

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Nice work documenting your system.

Couple of thoughts based on a couple generations of things I've tried and improved upon.

It might be a huge pita but for your cold climate you might consider adding a block warmer in your res or if your radiator had a heat exchanger provision tie it in that way. Another thing is the tube and fin coolers slow fluid way down which starves the pump when the res gets taxed (Howe refers this to sipping a milk shake thru a straw). Jeff also recommends the cooler should be as close to the res as possible due to byproduct of heat exchange...air bubbles dissipate and the longer they travel in the hose to the res the greater chance it disrupts flow especially if it is not level with the cooler which is another benefit of the sync style cooler and pressurized res with air vent.

Hose selection: I prefer the astectics of black but it's off by about 50 degrees at the high end of heat requirements from blue. I ran black on my last system and after a couple years into it I noticed that after changing my fluid it would almost immediately go black which was hose deterioration. As much as I hate push lock stuff the ID is better for flow on the non pressurized side of flow and make sure the fittings have 3 barbs vs 2. I also don't have empirical evidence but braided hose seems to retain heat. The aeroquip teflon hose Im running from the output of the pump to the hydroboost to steering box is really nice. Extremely high temp rating but cannot be kinked at all.

This is my 4th p pump for my '00 gmc and it's finally dialed. The bleeder vent (snaked thru the bracket) has made a huge improvement in reducing cavitation especially at lock.



P pump control valve

Another option for the p pump is to experiment with a few control valves to increase decrease flow. I went back to the stock valve which has H 6 on it. The hi flow 6 L that was in my old systems was too fast/twichy/squealed when the box was rebuilt with a different ratio and restricted a bit to get better feel at the wheel..



Reference guide. What's nice about this flow chart is you can visualize each segment of hose and how it applies to any application. I have a bunch of prints so when I need to build a system and buy fittings hose types I can easily check them off.

 

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Discussion Starter #212
Nice work documenting your system.

Couple of thoughts based on a couple generations of things I've tried and improved upon.
Good stuff! I plan to respond with more thoughts after I digest everything.

Just a quick note - I've pondered block heaters and came across this one:

Link to external heater

I could wrap it around my res and I think it would work pretty well. I'd rather find a more permanent solution, but if a heater is necessary when temps drop below freezing, maybe that's a sacrifice I have to accept with this system.

I did my testing today, and it appears the Swepco performs slightly better at low temps. That's good and bad. Good in that the expensive oil performs better, but bad that I can't just swap to ATF and solve my problem.

My approach was to drill a 3/8" hole in the bottom of a quart bottle. Plugged the hole with my finger, opened the cap for ventilation, and recorded it filling a graduated measuring cup. The same quart container was used for both fluids, so any discrepancies in container or orifice geometry was eliminated.







I used video editing software to capture the moment the fluid hit the bottom of the measuring cup, as well as the moment it crested .75L.

16.8 seconds for the Swepco
17.1 seconds for the ATF

Still very close, but the Swepco took the checkered flag on this one. Each frame is .03 seconds, so the .3 second difference is likely fairly accurate. There's probably better ways to do this, but my quick test shows that they're close enough to use interchangeably in cold temperatures.

I have refrained from starting the truck today.
 

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After digging a little bit here is some additional fluid info. The Howe chart above specifies AC Delco 89021182 and Howe PN 1105 (swepco 715). Have used the Delco but currently using swepco 715. Came across this GM Fluid 12345866 Cold Climate Power Steering Fluid - 16 oz. I would imagine that it has been blended with a friction modifier.

General Motors Power Steering Fluid 12345866 is recognized as one of the best fluids readily available and is rated for Cold Climate. A partially synthetic power steering fluid with exceptional low-temperature properties and increased oxidation stability. This product is specifically recommended for extreme cold climate conditions with temperatures below -20¡F. Excellent low-temperature fluidity

This fluid minimizes pump squeal, has anti-foaming additives, anti-rust inhibitors, and improves power steering performance in cold climate conditions
General Motors Cold Climate Power Steering Fluid
 

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I love this tech and discussion. However, I'm still confused as to why this cavitation is occurring. I know what causes it and in this case, the thick fluid in the cold temperatures is likely the reason that it doesn't happen in warmer weather or when the truck is warmed up. But as previously stated, it's not the sole cause.

The reason I know for certain it's not the sole cause is that I'm using the same pump with ATF as the fluid and it doesn't happen to mine (started it up today at -7°F after it had sat for two days). I do have the porkchop reservoir, and I'm wondering if having a significant amount of extra fluid right next to the pump is what helps me.

Still, old GM Vans use a can almost identical to what you're running, Bray and 49willys, and there's no way that GM would design something that cavitated for seconds upon startup in single digit weather.

As previously mentioned, I wonder if the extra backpressure on the system due to the extra plumbing from the cooler and integrated filter are the main causes. An easy way to try and test this out would be to simply bypass the cooler entirely on a cold day.

If this ends up fixing the issue, you could plumb in a 3 way valve that directs the fluid through the cooler in one direction and bypasses it in the other direction. Then, you can run cooler-less in the winter unless you're wheeling (or seeing temps that are higher than you're comfortable with). You'd probably have to turn the truck off to switch it, but that's not too bad.

Still, the filter is probably a pretty major source of backpressure in cold temps. I'm not sure if the system will run without the filter, but it'd be worth trying filter-less for the sake of this experiment, if it can be.
 

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Bray and 49willys, and there's no way that GM would design something that cavitated for seconds upon startup in single digit weather./QUOTE]

For any system where the pump is ported for increased flow and a ram is added is the moment things change from factory and cavitation is an issue due to increased demand and reducing fluid restriction is critical.

A picture from the Howe site shows the ID of a non pressurized hose in the return loop which is discussed and linked to this ancient thread "whining pump" post #18

O.K. Here's a look at what we're talking about, These are both -10 hoses the high pressure one is 1/2" i.d. ,The low pressure(push lock style) is 5/8" i.d.

This a common problem when plumbing your systems, You need to make sure that you check the I.D.of the hoses when purchasing them. The -6 pressure should be 5/16"I.D. The -8 return should be 1/2" I.D. and the -10 feed line should be 5/8" I.D. It's all about the FLOW.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/general-4x4-discussion/287536-whining-howe-pump-help.html

My previous system evolotion was the following on my 2500 truck.

1. Factory. At 36k the whole ps tacos after 5" lift 35" tires installed roughly 12k
2. Had a reputable shop rebuild box and ported box and Installed new factory lines. System would whine at high rpm and long distance road trips. Finally gave out on a road trip from bay area to San Diego and rebuilt system in buddies driveway see #3. Maybe 20k on this system.
3. Howe rebuilt the box because it was discovered the pump was over ported (high rpm/long distance whine) and used factory lines and res the pump would starve and all the shaving eventually ended up in the box. This system is where I changed the factory res to Howes remote res which was similar to the one pictured with the caveat of the bleeder from the hydro boost was -3 and used black hose 200* max temp burst psi and no cooler p pump feed was increased to -10 and control valve 6L was used. This system lasted 11 years. Once and a while I would get whine at lock in the hydroboost and was due to the -3 bleeder (only -3 in the whole system)

Here are what my 11 year old hoses look like before my recent upgrade. They were eaton rated at 200* which was 100* lower than Howes recommendations which is why they are got swapped out. The AN 10 line on top is the feed line to the pump from the reservoir which is low pressure and should be the largest line in the system. My local Eaton distributor who built my ptfe lines says don't use clamps on the push lock ends as it works against the dynamics of the barbed fittings.



4. Here is my new system. For the Chevy guys you'll notice that my old single pass tube and fin cooler bracket was altered to the accept the sync style cooler and fits in the grill with no clearance issues. The setrab cooler is for the trans.



Here you can see where all the box ports are welded reducing multiple sources of leaks -8 push lock return -6 pressurised to the box



Pictured are a couple of examples of hose and fittings used. Notice the hydroboost -6 bleeder 5/32 bore.

PTFE braided are rated at 500* and I run this from the pump to the hydro boost back to the box. This type of hose Cannot be bent at all. If you hear a pop its wasted and you need to start over. Make sure its in a safe spot that is isolated from something grabbing on to it or crushing it.

The blue 300* aero quip low pressure "push lock" line has a guard around it that leads to the cooler in front of the radiator.

 

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Discussion Starter #216 (Edited)
Nice work documenting your system.

Couple of thoughts based on a couple generations of things I've tried and improved upon.
I've had some time to think this through. Here are my thoughts.

I'm going to make the claim that restriction on the return side of the system has little to no influence on feeding the pump. Restriction will demand higher pressure to push the fluid, increasing system pressure and temperature as a result, however restriction in the return cannot starve the feed. Fluid is in-compressible, as we all know. Claiming that there's starvation due to restriction downstream is implying that the fluid compresses, leaving a vacuum at the pump. That's simply not the case.

Howe's milkshake analogy is valid, however I think it should be used to demonstrate the effects of a high viscosity fluid. There's no lack of supply, yet you can still suck a low pressure void in it as you're requiring the fluid to move faster than it's able. (there's a joke in here somewhere :flipoff2: )

At the end of the day, the fluid ends up in the reservoir at atmospheric pressure. This is what feeds the pump - a container of fluid at 1 atmosphere. 7psig max for my system.

I'm indifferent about the cooler location relative to the reservoir. I don't think air bubbles should exist during the heat exchange process. There's no phase change. That's a discussion for another day though.

Hose selection - I don't know exactly what hose I'm running as it's simply what the guy gave me at the speed shop, but he assured me it was more than sufficient for my application. My fluid is still a transparent amber, so I don't think I have any deterioration issues. I'll rock out with the hoses I have until I see an issue that drives change.

Your current pump/bracket arrangement indeed looks great. I wish my pump was that low in the engine bay so I could put the res directly above it.

The 'vent' line caught my attention for sure. It would help bleed off any residual air that's trapped in the can at the 12o'clock position, as well as act as a second feed line once all of the air is out. Pretty slick. As of right now I just have a single -12 port on the can, oriented 15° from vertical. There could very well be some air trapped in the top of the can. That being said, I've put 500 miles on it or so, including a full day of rock crawling. My hope is that it would have purged itself by now, but I can't say for certain.

I haven't touched the pump control valve, so I'm running whatever came with the pump. I also haven't put much thought to it, but if it indeed increases flow I could see how it may cause issues as it's trying to pass the fluid faster than it can be drawn into the pump.

With my current train of thought, cavitation is caused by a fluid that is too viscous for the application, or there's too much restriction between the reservoir and the pump. With either case, the fluid isn't flowing to the pump quick enough.

I've put my best foot forward using a -12 feed with a sweeping 90° fitting at the pump. I don't know how to increase flow any more in that regard. I've begun a preliminary search to see if there's a larger pump can that will increase capacity local to the pump, but I haven't found much right now. Perhaps a larger volume of fluid right at the pump would solve the feed flow issue (if there is one).

That leads me to the fluid viscosity. The GM cold climate fluid has my attention.

I was talking with DMANbluesfreak earlier today and he requested a video of the startup. The truck sat all day and it may have reached 10° or so. It was +3° when I started it after work. It was pissed for a short bit, but not too bad.



EDIT: You beat me to the reply. Currently reading.

EDIT2: Not much more to add other than I still have a bone stock Ford box, stock GM pump (with PSC can), no cylinder (yet), and no hydroboost.
 

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cs is definitely a cavitation point.

the db2 injection pump in simplest of terms, is a hydraulic pump and relates to the viscosity issue cavitation raised here..

say some guy had a db2 equipped engine...and at times running 25-50 percent oil mix rate with diesel or gasoline for fuels, and stayed over 25 percent especially when it is cooler... a guy can forget running straight diesel when its hot out. usually they will have to cool the injection pump or add oil for warm starts. and that's with 8 pounds plus psi feeding the pump/plungers. this type of cavitation...at least it was explained to me as shear.


the less then robust db2 injection pumps lose efficiency quickly from running too heavy of a vis for fuel.

don't even run oil/diesel mix in winter for the most part.

people assume it is from dirty oil, but the oil I am talking about is cleaner then anything that a factory system can even attain.


good oil is worth every penny in a hydro system. selecting the proper oil can cause rapid wallet depletion and frustration to the point of hair loss.


matched systems have serious value.
 

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Bray for your application you should be fine with the black hose. Mine lasted 11 years where the last 4-5 years the deterioration got worse. Just keep an eye on the fluid which you seem to be on top of. In my circumstances my truck is my dd, lots of road trips and over loading my rig puts a lot of stress on the ps.
 

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Discussion Starter #219
49willys_mogon said:
In my circumstances my truck is my dd, lots of road trips and over loading my rig puts a lot of stress on the ps.
I miss those days. My truck retired from DD duties in December of '14, but I still drive it quite a bit. It probably sees 5-6k miles per year.

Leaving memory lane and jumping back on topic:

Bray for your application you should be fine with the black hose. Mine lasted 11 years where the last 4-5 years the deterioration got worse. Just keep an eye on the fluid which you seem to be on top of.
I have confidence that my hoses will go the distance. My feed is only rated to 200° like your original was, but I should be able to keep it well below that by monitoring the temp gauge. I'll keep an eye on it regardless.

I think I'll pull the pump and bracket off while still hooked up to the res and see if I can find an air bubble hiding in the can (where your vent line is). If I don't see an improvement, I'll be leaning heavily towards the GM cold climate fluid. It's extremely expensive at $25 per quart (32oz), but the reviews are all positive.
 

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Bray, I'm seeing $18 a qt or $26 32 oz on eBay and Amazon. In comparison to std gm ps fluid is $13 and give or take the same as swepco 715. I'd be surprised if you need more than 1.5 qt.
 
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