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Rear Steer

746 Views 13 Replies 5 Participants Last post by  RedBullJeep
rear steer? Keep it or get rid of it? To be or not to be? Thats what everyone in Unlimited wants to know. I think the arguement is being thought out now.

If it was me I'd say ditch it. No rear steer penalty points. Force me to put a steer axle in the back finally.
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This is a non-touch issue for you guys. DO NOT use your opinions on this subject as it's one of the only ones you will not be allowed to handle, simply because it is a firestorm hot-button issue. We've said it all along, even during the voting parts, the panel has no say in this and we don't want your opinions to be posted here or there. It will put you in a tough spot and we just don't want that.

We'll make the decision based on points and course design and uniqueness, and other factors, especially the factor that if the points get lifted, everyone will run it and that changes course dynamics IMMENSELY, making it a nightmare for us, more dangerous for the drivers because of the higher difficulty needed to challenge you, and if we cannot build them more dangerous, then it gets boring for the crowd.

Lil Rich owns this topic and can take the heat either way. Some people want the points raised, some want them the same, some want them lowered or eliminated. We won't please everyone with the answer so it will simply come down to the goals of the class and the logistics involved.

There will not be a discussion here, only an answer from Lil on what his plans are.
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sounds good. I'm just relaying what the conversation has turned to in the comp only forum. if lil owns it then I wont touch it in that forum.
I think the issue of Rear Steer is a tough call to make either way. Some argument definitely makes sense, but I think it somewhat depends on the region. For instance, I think Rear Steer on the East Coast for the Unlimited Class is almost mandatory due to the terrain and lack of traction; where the West Coast has mega amounts of traction and rear steer is almost not needed for the courses we produce today.

There is no real difference between course difficulties; just in traction seeing that the East Coast has more dirt, mud, and loose rocks.

This was a discussion yesterday over breakfast. Rear Steer is so needed on the East Coast that nearly everyone has it (except Shannon who places well regardless {top 2 in all three attempts} and feels that him having no rear steer on the east makes him outgunned); yet the west has so much more traction that if we take away the penalty, the course difficulty would have to rise immensely just to keep up with the cars ability.

To really challenge RS guys on the west, I feel W.E.ROCK would have to ditch nearly every course on the west because the terrain is not difficult to make RS exciting (Which will not happen at the other classes expense). With this, the other classes could suffer from course difficulty and the Unlimited Class numbers will drop. In turn, this could either raise or lower the Pro Modified numbers as well.

Many people in the Unlimited Class would move out of class due to course difficulty, having to build a new car to feel competitive, or lack of talent in using RS. Once they move, who knows where they will end up, hopefully to another class, but there are chances they will quit the sport. This change would reflect what we have already seen in our old CalROCS days where the Unlimited Class would be 8-10 vehicles deep in the west and not nearly as exciting as the Modified Stock Class. 8-10 vehicles also throw a lower purse at the teams possibly also lowering confidence in the class and having more teams make a move.

When looking back into history of Rock Crawling on the West, the classes (With no RS penalty) were fairly lopsided. 8-10 in Unlimited, 40-45 in Pro Modified, 20+ in Modified Stock. The Unlimited Class was compiled of the few diehard RS guys that competed the circuit and the other 4-6 teams were one-off, no traveling, local trail type teams that thought they could fit in but never did due to course difficulty.

What about the argument, “Anybody could put RS on their vehicle…” Yes, you’re right. Will they be competitive? Probably not. Not many Rear Engine Rear Steer vehicles are capable by today’s standard. Why? I strongly believe that it would place too much weight in the rear of the vehicle and make said vehicles not climb as well as others. “But that is their decision…” True, and it is also your decision to run RS while there is a penalty enforced.

My personal opinion… The 5 point penalty for RS is dead on. W.E.ROCK’s goal for the Unlimited Class states: ”… understand that if a technological advantage is found to be too great for the competition industry as a whole to keep up with, some restrictions or handicaps may be used to control domination, which can harm a sport in the long run.” There is something to be said for the ability to position your buggy at a moments notice to the exact location desired…

But what do I know, I am just a punk 23 year old kid with NO bias that loves every aspect of the sport and wouldn’t want to see any of it fail...
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Im totally confused by this! RS is the only thing specific to our class that is an issue. Most of the problems effect everyone equally. (judging, safety, and payouts) I thought this board was here to get things done not to just push them back another year or two. According to the rules why wasnt the moonbuggy pointed? RS was around way before the moonbuggy- its not rocket science. I think our class has been stagnant for too long thats why its shrinking. The courses dont have to be dangerous to be hard!!! People are going to realize that moving to the mod class isnt going to help their standings. The more competitors the harder it is to win. Why cant Dustin and Lil see that other forum? -wouldnt it help them see what the people want.
Jason that other forum is specifically for the the competitor only. To bitch and complain about everything without fear of having promoters, sponsors and industry persons in on every word.
Really, Im totally bummed- we are not needed on this board. Do you know of anything that is a problem or needs to be looked at in our class? I asked and no one seems to have one--yet. As you can see by my number of posts I am not very schooled on this forum stuff. Ive waited since 99 to have a say in our class and it doesnt seem like anything is going to change---the fact that we are not to give our opinion is nutty. I thought that is why we were voted in this thing (because we have earned our fellow competitors respect) Off the subject, how do I PM?
It's been stated over and over why and that this topic would be handled internally. Jason, it's not our fault that you have not read the numerous posts and instructions to those that were accepting nominations to the panel. It was there, clear as day, that we would not allow this subject to be touched by the panel simply due to the volatility. Because you have chosen, for all of these years, to communicate through someone else, you have missed out on much of the details that others know, including the fact that we posted over and over, that Lil would make any decisions on the RS subject. The reason you didn't know that is because you didn't read the preliminary stuff and George didn't pass it on to you.

You are welcome to call me or Lil Rich directly regarding this subject but I will ask you this. With all of the topics that can be bridged at this point in the sport and have been addressed on the Competitor's Hidden Forum over the last 6 months, how many of your 4 posts on record have to do with Rear Steer? If that's all you can take the time to address, it's an agenda, not a representation.

Jason, rear steer will be addressed by Rich. People can call him with their opinions as they do on an almost weekly basis, complaining the points are too high, complaining that the points are too low, but at about a 50/50 rate...there are a TON of factors that are in play and the majority never look at the bigger picture, they only blame it on why they are not winning regularly, because you know it, everyone believes they are the best and should be winning. They look for excuses why they are not winning, and it always comes down to Rear Steer points are too high, or two low, not that they just couldn't put together a perfect event under the rules that are there.

It's unsolvable by opinion and will create a major backlash if we don't address this based on facts, results, and the multiple big-picture issues surrounding RS. Lil owns this and is willing to be the fall guy...believe me, you make him the fall guy for not eliminating the points while the next guy makes him the fall guy for not raising them. His only solution is to find a balance that works for the sport in a big picture, and then to design courses that balance RS and non-RS rigs alike. He's done a great job of that and it's reflected in your performance over the years. Jason, you're still at the top, even with switching spotters how many times in the last couple of years? He'll continue to make it work and keep things balanced.

Finally, if you feel you are not needed on this board, that's a shame Jason. There are so many things you can be addressing to make this sport safe, fair, effecient, and one that progresses at a smoother and faster rate. RS won't solve hardly any of that. You have a TON to offer the teams you represent and Jason, you represent them ALL, not just the Unlimited.
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Looking at it from the other class, it does not make sense why we can discuss everything BUT the rear steer rule.

Put up or Shut up is anything goes, except for rear steer.

XRRA is anything goes, except for rear steer.

This class is essentailly unlimited, except for rear steer.

(I hope I am not expressing an opinion here)
We've found that the RS subject is too touchy and too much of a bias based decision by so many teams that we have decided to hold the right for all final calls on this matter. This fact was stated before the voting even started for an Adisory Panel so there was plenty of notice about this matter. Please feel free to give me your thoughts, but realize that nothing will change for the 2008 season. If you are uncomfortable about posting it here, feel free to PM me your thoughts.
It's two subjects...You can discuss anything but the Rear Steer and Spotter Straps. Same reason. Both are volitile and piss everyone off and will make you guys enemies of other teams if the rule doesn't go the way they want it to.

In life, there are two subjects that are untouchable without anger/emotion...religion and politics. In crawling, its RS and Spotter Straps.

Look at history and you'll find that those are the two subjects that cause the most emotion and straight out HATRED by many individuals. If the teams asked who had a part in the discussions of those two subjects (they will ask by the way), and we said that the panel did, they'd be just as angry with you as they are with us. We don't want that to happen, hence the reason we wrote that as a disclaimer NUMEROUS times in the lead-ups to the panel idea, the panel nominations, and the panel voting.
We've found that the RS subject is too touchy and too much of a bias based decision by so many teams that we have decided to hold the right for all final calls on this matter. This fact was stated before the voting even started for an Adisory Panel so there was plenty of notice about this matter. Please feel free to give me your thoughts, but realize that nothing will change for the 2008 season. If you are uncomfortable about posting it here, feel free to PM me your thoughts.
"nothing will change for the 2008 season" ???
Honestly these "no talk" subjects are bothering me. Believe me it is a little weird when an advisory panel is chosen so touchy subjects can be dealt with rationally and we cant even talk about them. No offense but it is a little "Bob Hazel". I know people are going to loose trust in the fact that you are lookin out for them. Once a team loses trust in the organizers its hard to keep coming back. I know it will be easy for you to say "you have it so you think it should be allowed" Obviously, part of that is true but, thats not the whole story. I really think its time to be open minded on the idea. Is a vote with reasons out of the question? Its starting to come up in the other forum and its going to have a weird vibe. It seems like this panel is finally starting to do something so lets keep it going and put some stuff down for real. Lil, I wish u would get a hold of me on this- truly loosin sleep over it!!
FYI, I have had three calls today...two saying, "Don't let them convince you to change RS!" and one saying, Ditch Rear Steer Penalties!"

Jason, it's the same old story...with a vote on this, you'l run the full gamut of feelings and opinions, and then once the decision is made, just as many people will be unhappy with the rule as they are now. It all comes don to course design, excitement for the crowds, balance within the sport as it currently is, and ease of integration.

I am betting that within a couple of years, the class will change and you'l see the majority of rigs with RS. At that point it may make sense. Until then, you can remain happy that at least there are enough moonbuggies to fill the field with prize-money for you to take. Without those guys, I doubt you'd find much of a reason to show up.

It's been said again and again that W.E.ROCK is willing to take the heat on this subject as well as the spotter strap subject. We know what the opinios are...we hear them non-stop Jason...you know how much George calls us about this? Well, others do exactly the same...I bet there is no rule that receives more calls and comments on over a year than this one. Trust me, if it was a majority opinion, we'd know. It isn't Jason...not even close.
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