Pirate 4x4 banner

1 - 20 of 52 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
389 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Sammy or Toy Full Floater and regular forged flanged axles

MW said that they will make axles for us for $500/pr and $450 for full floater axles. Contact them direct. I gave them drawings and met with them several times for many hours total and even if we got an order together for 10/pr that would only drop the FF axles to $380 and flanged forged axles to $440.
http://markwilliams.com/axles.aspx

I will be making rear hubs and have them spline them. 26 at spider end and 28 or 30 at hub end. Also making a adapter for Sammy front spindle to mount on the rear.
Been working some lately and if it continues for another month or so I should be caught up and have the goodies started so I can put a long spline FF rear set on my Sammy. Still have to get a motor in my Kick before I can wheel hard again.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
389 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Are the 26 drive flanges hard to get? I would rather use something that is already made fo sure. I don't want a locking hubs in the rear. A solid drive flange with a cover to put on for towing with no splines. No big deal to pull the drive flange off and put on a cover and way more reliable. I do think it would be cool to make my own drive flanges and the only reason I was considering 28 or 30 spline was to reduce the cost of broaching the splines in the flange. 26 spline broach is way more expensive being MW doesn't have one.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
389 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
I don't want to be the middle man and try to organize a group buy. I'm not making anything on them and just don't want to deal with all the tire kickers. Been there, done that. If it wasn't for their vast experience on making axles I would just make my own. It isn't the machining of the FF axles that is a problem but the knowledge on the heat treat process that is so important. Maybe they will heat treat my axles. They do a unique treatment and I trust them. It isn't just a one step process. I am also getting a quote on cycle testing their axle against the Calmini ones for anyone who wants to have that done. You of course have to sacrifice a Calmini and one of their axles for testing. They don't believe the Calmini axles are 4140 as they claim and I have a set in their now for further testing now.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
389 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
I also forgot to mention I am going to incorporate the hub mount adapter to use a Subaru caliper and Sammy rotor.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,702 Posts
I don't want to be the middle man and try to organize a group buy. I'm not making anything on them and just don't want to deal with all the tire kickers. Been there, done that. If it wasn't for their vast experience on making axles I would just make my own. It isn't the machining of the FF axles that is a problem but the knowledge on the heat treat process that is so important. Maybe they will heat treat my axles. They do a unique treatment and I trust them. It isn't just a one step process. I am also getting a quote on cycle testing their axle against the Calmini ones for anyone who wants to have that done. You of course have to sacrifice a Calmini and one of their axles for testing. They don't believe the Calmini axles are 4140 as they claim and I have a set in their now for further testing now.
I have had several sets of the Calmini HD rear axle shafts and broken three of them and twisted the splines on a third without breaking it. They hold up well and it takes me about a year and a half to break one on 35" tires in a Zuk with a 2.0 liter and T-case gears. I cannot attest to whether they are 4140 or not, but they break off clean just like 4140 typically does. If you need one to test I have one to sacrifice.

Your group buy sounds like a great idea and decent discount price. Performance Cryogenics last year built a set of their Black Max 26 spline full floater rear shafts for one of my customers for about $500 pair (if I remember the price correctly) and these have held up well for a Zuk with 35" Krawlers, 4-1 T-case, 1.6 16 valve motor, & 1/4 elliptical suspension. I am sure they could make them in quantity and Dean, the owner, has said he can and will make them 30 spline if that's what Zuker's want..... something to think about.


HTH to move us closer to making Stronger Zuk Stuff!

Also, I have a set of the 26 spline drive flanges if you would like them for $20 each with hardware.


Sean DeVinney
[email protected]
 

·
ZUK Herder
Joined
·
4,496 Posts
Remeber group buys are not allowed on pirate
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,914 Posts
While all this sounds cool and all your weak link is still the thin Housing, bending into a smile.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
389 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
I'll get back to you Sean when I see if they have the drive flanges at the Pull in Pay.
It would be nice for someone to know the strengths of the different axles available but for me it is not worth the money to find out with my current financial situation. I will have a quote for testing this week from MW. I'm just wanting some stuff for myself and don't have the means to produce extras of anything just to have them sit on a shelf for the few of us that have the means to pay what it costs to have the made in USA label.
I'm having lots of fun though and enjoy the goodies I can make for myself and a select few maybe. Just don't want to try to make a business out of the Sammy crowd at least the ones on the forums. It just costs too much to make stuff here and sell it to this crowd for what it costs to make here. I understand as I am in the poor house too and wouldn't be able to buy much either. That is why I make my own crap plus it is fun to do.

As for group buy, I had no plans on that either. Just stating the quotes from MW and leave it up to some one else to run with any kind of marketing if they so choose to.

Scott. No doubt. I have mine trussed all to hell but it is still weak at the ends which I have concerns with. I was thinking about sleeving the tubes and beefin up the housing ends too but I'm really not that hard on my Sammy and 31' or 33's are working out fine for what we have here and what my Sammy is built for.
I like being overbuilt for what you run and how you drive. I really don't think a Sammy should have 35's without going to Yota and stretch anyway. Shit happens when you are having fun and I am not sure there is allot o margin built in if you have 35's all the way down the line.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
389 Posts
Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
Picked up 3 GV drive flanges for $4.99 each plus tax and $2 entry.

I saw 2 4Runner drive shafts there too laying on the ground and they were not destroyed by fork lift this time. They usually get $19.99 for one. Which I had more money but I am set on my shafts.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
623 Posts
I prefer to run Samurai front hubs rather than 'kick for three reasons: I don't need to make a brake mount, I then have the same hubs front to rear, and I prefer the 50mm nut to the 'kick bearing tensioner setup.

However, for those running 4.6 or 5.12 gears, why use the stock samurai housing? I agree it becomes the obvious weak link.

I've built a couple of full floaters on samurai housings, and they have been fine for our style of terrain, but the 'kick housing is much stronger, has bigger gears, is already 4.6 or 5.12 geared, and they are everywhere sitting in wreckers.

Critically, the bearing retainer housing on the 'kick axle is much, much stronger than the samurai housing so it's a much better candidate for a floater conversion.

I have 4 'kick based floaters on cars and 2 Samurai and none have given any problems. All cars are running 35" Krawlers or Q78 Swampers.

If you always drive really high traction surfaces or drive full retard constantly, maybe 35's require toyota diffs. It's not been our experience. Our driving is kinda pacific north west style.

My junk





Samurai based floater:









The samurai floater is in this:



(Although it was still leaf rear and semifloat in this photo)

This is a mocked up 'kick housing with a floater adapter and samurai hub/brake



Here's another 'kick rear we did. The housing has to be flipped upside down to cut down the "short side" of the 'kick housing to get the offset correct.

using this jig



This car runs a Samurai housing also as it has a TH180 trans (no overdrive) so it needed 3.9/3.7 diffs to make it road drivable.


Note that it wasn't running the floater in this photo. the owner was pretty worried about wiping out axles until the floater went in.

The rest of us have all wiped out axles/ gears at some point which led to the desire to run a small, light, high strength axle.

Steve.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
389 Posts
Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
That's good info guys.
I am happy to see they are all holding up to 35's so I should have plenty of safety factor built in with my setup. What axles are you using?
I found a place that has rems of some 1.06"D 300M. Cost is $158 for 50" so I will go with that material for mine and hopefully MW will apply their heat treat magic to them. Machine the axles myself.

I wanted to use the Sammy front hubs/spindle but I would have to rob a complete axle of mine to do it and like you said Kicks and even Vitara's are more readily available here. I am going to take some measurements and get the drawings done in the next 2 days.

I already have a heavily trussed Sammy housing in mine and a spare with all the weld on's for the antiwrap, perches and my cable locker in so I am going to stay with the Sammy. I thought the axle tubes themselves were the same thickenss between kick and sammy? I do have a couple of Kick housing here to play with too. With the shaving that could be an option on a future build but if I am going to have to shorten anything I would rather just retube the Sammy housing and make thicker ends. Antiwrap bar is not bolted in on these pictures.




The next time the housing is out I am going to shave it for sure. Enough excuses! Always in too big of a hurry to finish being this is my only running car at this point so down time has to be limited to how much beer I have in the fridge. Haven't found a beer delivery service yet. :laughing:

It would of been nice to use Sammy calipers too but I need a EBrake so I will use the Subaru ones. No way to use a driveline brake being I have a Spidertrax antiwrap kit on with modified 4Runner driveshafts. The driveshaft flange as it is almost hits the Spidertrax cross bar and in fact does at times. I hope to incorporate the adapter and caliper mount into one machined part. I will know more in the next 2 days what the plan is. At this time I don't see why there need to be an seal on the end of the housing. I'm going to look at it closer like I said. I would like to not have to machine a seal race on the axle. That would upset my spline to center section profile. I am going to relieve the axle behind the splines to about 1/3rd of the length of the axle instead of just less than 1" like Calmini. I hope to transfer the loads further away from the spline. I hate it when those splines crack and break or twist. Can make a trail repair impossible. Last time I broke a axle I had to replace the third as I couldn't get the broken splines out of the spider.

Busy day today.
Going to go see Tom at Spidertrax, put a down payment on a shaper if it is still there, Go to Richards Machine and see what goodies they have as far as a dividing head goes and a larger live center for my LeBlond. Take apart one of my extra front ends and get some measurements and then maybe go get those 2 spindles and hubs from the GV at UPull and look for some Subaru calipers. This is the Subaru state so there should be plenty there.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
623 Posts
'Kick housings are thicker and larger diameter.

To keep the overall with the same as stock, the housings has to be cut down, although the 'kick spindles may reduce this problem to the point it's not really significant.

I wouldn't ever retube a samurai housing. The centresection is quite weak - I've seen them split along the top of the housing. Rather than truss the crap out of an inherently weak housing, it was much more preferable IMHO to start with a stronger housing that already had the (bigger) gears I wanted in it.

Obvoiusly the cars that run 3.9 or 3.7 diff gears have to stay with the Samurai housing.

Our axles are EN-26. I discussed 300m with the axle maker and he did not recommend it on three grounds:

A) Cost

B) Difficulty in heat treatment. This may not be a problem in the US, but the word here is that 300m tends to distort a bit during heat treatment leading to some rework being required.

C) Surface hardness. 300M is enormously strong, no doubt, but has lower surface hardness than EN-26 (after heat treatment, of course) The concern is that whilst the axle won't break, breaking a spool, side gear, or drive flange may damage the splines enough that the axle isn't serviceable.

Plus, the axle builder pretty much guaranteed we wouldn't break the EN-26 shafts, which has proven to be the case.

You'll need a seal. Gear oil will flow down the spindle and get into the bearings, diluting the grease. It's also hard to seal the connection between the spindle and the housing. Some of ours weep a bit, without a seal it would be terrible.

I'd reassess your plans on overall shaft diameter. The shaft should be the same diameter as the base of the splines for as much of its length as possible. Ours neck up slightly at the seal surface (obviously) These shafts need to twist - that's what prevents them breaking, and that's why semifloat axles always break in the spline - all the twist is concentrated there. if you neck down for 1/3 of the length, that's where all the twist will be occurring. Less room for twist means that section of the axle will reach plastic deformation sooner. It's why typically it's always the short side axle that fails.

Steve.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
389 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
This is great info. THX so much for sharing.
I am going to MW this morning for I have yet to get a quote on testing the 3 axles in question and I will talk about the EN-26 material. I haven't found a source for EN-26 here in the states. It appears that it is a UK/AUS specification.
Can you elaborate on the heat treat of those shafts and where you get them so I can see if it is feasible for me to import a pair or have some made here?

The stock axle I broke broke did so in the splines. I have seen 2 others twist all in the spline section. Sean at Low Range told me that they have seen many short side Calmini axles break but I didn't ask where which I will do today as well. I have a damper bracket order ready to ship that includes RHD ones for you guys across the pond.

Calmini has a 1.25" necked down section behind the splines down to 1.03" and then goes up to a rough turned center section of 1.115". MW said that they use a 1/3 of the shaft necked down section thus taking some loads off the splines. This of course is not a FF axle and not of the same material at all. We run MW FF axles on our Modified and my neighbor runs them on his top fuel pro stock drag car and has never broke any either. They know their shit for sure.

As for the seal, I don't see an issue with getting oil in the bearings. Just no need to grease them at that point. There may be an issue with getting enough oil to the axle bearings. Probably just as easy to just put a seal race on the axle.
As for weeping at the flange a simple O-Ring on the face of the mating surface between adapter and housing flange should take care of that. I plan on using one solid piece of material for the adapter and caliper mount. That should be easier to seal than the what looks like 3 piece one that you made. I doubt the dust shield will hold oil though. I would just permanently close that up. I hope to tear into it all this weekend as it is going to be in the 60's today and the mid 50's for the next few days. :D:D Today has become really booked up. Tomorrow is drug test day for my new machine shop/welder job for Emerson, then I have to show my skills in their shop.

I have 2 pair of 95 Kick front ends here so I will be using Kick spindles and hubs.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
155 Posts
I machine, spline and cylindrical grind all my own axles, then send them off for heat treating. With our dollar I don't think it would be feasable to send to the U.S.



Seal housing in place.


Don't be too concerned about the three plate. The inner is to cup the square flange and take the load off the fasteners, the middle sandwitches between the flange and hub and has an o-ring that sits in the circular section to fully seal the Vitara hub and the outer plate acts as a spigot for the hub.




Make sure the axles have a circlip to prevent them sliding out and popping the hub cap off.

The fabbed housings I make based on the Vitara centre.








Tube used.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
78 Posts
Aussiejoe,

Your full-float rear looks real well planned and has a lot more parts / pieces of metal than what I did..

now I'm worried if I didn't think mine through and just bolted sh!t together..

I just have a machined adapter then attached toy spindles and hubs..

 
1 - 20 of 52 Posts
Top