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Discussion Starter #1
Well, I already started the installation of a S/C on my Esteem 1.6 engine.

Bassically will use an Eaton M45 SC from a MB C230 Kompressor, a Begi fuel managment, Mini Cooper intercooler, Turbo XS blow off valve, Vortech BTM and inox piping.

Here goes some pics...
 

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EHeye said:
Please take into consideration elevation change. One thing overlooked on a boosted vehicle. :)

I was just going over this - that you can safely boost to a higher relative PSI at higher altitude - so if 5 psi is safe at sealevel, so might *8psi be safe at 10 or 12 thousand feet - 'cause the engine ends up with about the same "amount" of air in the cylinder, and the power output ends up the same.

*5 and 8 psi are just guesstimates to indicate what might be required, not real numbers.

This is also why engines tend to overheat at high altitude - the 12 psi of pressure keeping the coolant from boiling at sea level needs to be higher relative the local pressure to keep the coolant boiling point held to the same level.
 

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Your 5psi at sea level will be 8psi (guesstimate) at 10 thousand feet. So will you have enough fuel to support that psi difference. When dealing with pressure, its a totally different ball game. You would have to run c16 race gas to boost 8psi on a motor that runs 5psi at sea level and be close to detonation. You may be safe, or on the border, but you will start getting counts of knock which will retard your timing. 40 degrees retarded timing, is well, retarded, Lada fast retarded. :flipoff2:
 

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EHeye said:
Your 5psi at sea level will be 8psi (guesstimate) at 10 thousand feet. So will you have enough fuel to support that psi difference. When dealing with pressure, its a totally different ball game. You would have to run c16 race gas to boost 8psi on a motor that runs 5psi at sea level and be close to detonation. You may be safe, or on the border, but you will start getting counts of knock which will retard your timing. 40 degrees retarded timing, is well, retarded, Lada fast retarded. :flipoff2:

Actually - you WON'T need all that, because 8 psi at altitude is 8psi over the air around the car at alitude - it's the same AMOUNT of air you get at 5 psi at sealevel, as determined by number of air molecules actually stuffed into the motor

It will be the same air/fuel QUANTITY at 8 psi and high altitude and 5 psi at low altitude, because we don't measure ABSOLUTE pressure - it's pressure RELATIVE to the air pressure around us. If you put a turbo engine in a giant pressure chamber and add "5 psi" of pressure around it, will it need more fuel at 5 psi of boost in there? Yes.

You'd have to modify the boost control to GET 8 psi at altitude tho' - it won't do it on it's own - it will still go for 5psi relative to the air around the controller - which will have less air in it.

5psi at sea level is X molecules of air.

5psi relative to the air at 10k ft will air be X minus the local pressure of air molecules .

If we had a way of measureing ABSOLUTE pressure and setting boost and fueling while ignoring pressure around the vehicle, well that would be great.


EDIT: Or I'm completly full of crap - I have been before, and I am sure I will be again. :D
 

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ive been looking for something to boost up my 16v. but my budget is tight, what kind of dough are we lookin at?
 

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To run a boosted vehicle this is what you would need, depending if its supercharged or turbocharged.

For turbo:

-Turbocharger
-Manifold
-External Wastegate (if the turbo isn't internally gated)
-Exhaust work (2.5" to 3")
-Engine pipe work & clamps (mandrel bent intercooler and intake piping)
-Intercooler or water injection (I choose water injection in my opinion, IC's heat soak to quick when 4x4'ing)
-Engine Management System (Megasquirt, Motec, HKS, Microtec)
-Possibly injectors
-Fuel pump
-Fuel Pressure Regulator
-Boost, EGT gauges
-Boost controller
-Turbo timer (if you want to save your turbo's life span)


for Supercharger:

-Supercharger (different types will make for different installs, I would use a typical Roots blower like a Eaton off of a Ford Thunderbird)
-Intake plenum
-open up exhaust a bit more (still needs back pressure)
-fuel pump
-injectors
-fuel pressure regulator
-Boost gauge
-Engine Management System
-Different SC pulley (depending on how much boost you want to run)
-water injection


Hope that helps, thats the basics of what you need. And prices will vary depending on what you use.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
EHeye said:
To run a boosted vehicle this is what you would need, depending if its supercharged or turbocharged.


for Supercharger:


-fuel pump
-injectors
-fuel pressure regulator


Hope that helps, thats the basics of what you need. And prices will vary depending on what you use.
Well, I will use a Fuel Managment Unit, with stock injectors and stock fuel pump, bassically because I will keep the stock fueling when S/C on Off.-
 

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What cc are the stock fuel injectors? I would run no less than like 250cc injectors for 5psi. Safe than sorry. And if you have too little of fuel when into the boost you will knock/detonate. Does the stock pump flow enough, I would really question this. I know with the DSM's we would use 255lph pumps for 16+ psi. Definately don't over look the fuel system, very critical, one mis-calculation and you end up with a few melted pistons. :flipoff2:

I take it that SC has a clutching system on it? I know the superchargers from the MR2's (MK1) had a blowby clutching system. Was really neat because if you stayed out of the boost you could get wicked gas mileage. But when the compressor is there, you gotta use it :grinpimp:
 

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Discussion Starter #16
EHeye said:
What cc are the stock fuel injectors? I would run no less than like 250cc injectors for 5psi. Safe than sorry. And if you have too little of fuel when into the boost you will knock/detonate. Does the stock pump flow enough, I would really question this. I know with the DSM's we would use 255lph pumps for 16+ psi. Definately don't over look the fuel system, very critical, one mis-calculation and you end up with a few melted pistons. :flipoff2:

I take it that SC has a clutching system on it? I know the superchargers from the MR2's (MK1) had a blowby clutching system. Was really neat because if you stayed out of the boost you could get wicked gas mileage. But when the compressor is there, you gotta use it :grinpimp:
What I will use is a FMU that raise the fuel pressure under boost, so more fuel in the same injector pulse.
Beside the stock fuel pump, I will use a Trex inline fuel pump to reach till 100psi on the rail.-
 

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Gonzalo Bravo said:
What I will use is a FMU that raise the fuel pressure under boost, so more fuel in the same injector pulse.
Beside the stock fuel pump, I will use a Trex inline fuel pump to reach till 100psi on the rail.-
No, No, No! At around 80psi I've seen injectors lock-up. Sometimes closed other times open, both can kill your motor. If you don't have a stand alone self programming system you best be mighty carefull or you'll be searching for another engine. I used to own and operate a DYNOJET dynometer and have seen preety much everything...including stupid mistakes in tuning. BTW, it would be best to replace the pistons to a lower compression ration say 8:1 (lathing .020 off the tops and balancing) so that you won't have to induce retarding and a higher quality piston (to reduce over heated friction scuffing)which will happen with the stock pistons. And don't forget syn-blend oil and the sooner than regular oil changes to boot.

I could go on and on but I would be late for church, and we all know that GOD doesn't wait.:cool2:

BTW, good luck!
 

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FWIW, having read other threads from Gonzalo, where he was looking for a solution to running at extreme altitude, I THINK he will ONLY use the supercharger at high alitude, at least at first - if he only boosts enough to feed the engine sea-level quantities of air at 15k ft, it shouldn't need mods at all.
 
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