Pirate 4x4 banner

21 - 40 of 79 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
15,368 Posts
And if you like good steering geometry you'll not use the Ford parts at all.

Ried C`s and knuckles set for 7-8* caster after you`ve set the pinion angle. TR to the cast in arms for Ackerman.

An even better way would be to toss the Ford center and buy an aftermarket center. That way your making the axle fit YOUR rig not the other way around.

Not a fan of the Ford at all...............Yes, its buy in is cheap but the ROI sucks.
seriously? :laughing: :homer: wtf are you bringing up a fully custom axle when guys are asking about what high steer to run on a junkyard axle

reid knuckes and c's are going to cost almost 2k by themselves :laughing:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
773 Posts
And if you like good steering geometry you'll not use the Ford parts at all.

Ried C`s and knuckles set for 7-8* caster after you`ve set the pinion angle. TR to the cast in arms for Ackerman.

An even better way would be to toss the Ford center and buy an aftermarket center. That way your making the axle fit YOUR rig not the other way around.

Not a fan of the Ford at all...............Yes, its buy in is cheap but the ROI sucks.
You are waaaaay off topic, not to mention Dana Spicer makes the axle. Typical chevy nut swingers :laughing:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
773 Posts
machined is only way to go. buddy has had 2 weld on's fail. first one i welded and just preheated and mig welded and cooled. second one was preheated and welded with nickle rod by ticketed welder and cooled. both only had few runs on them and failed. hes running machined and keyed now and no issues
Who's keyed arms?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,777 Posts
I know that Dana builds the axle to Ford’s specs. They (Dana) are pretty good at building axles for a number of companies and applications.

For a multi purpose rig that will see its share of street use the Ford speced SD60 Dana axle has a lot of shortcomings.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,282 Posts
For a multi purpose rig that will see its share of street use the Ford speced SD60 Dana axle has a lot of shortcomings.

Care to explain this statement? Maybe start a new thread explaining your thought process on this? Not bashing at all, just want to learn more.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,777 Posts
Care to explain this statement? Maybe start a new thread explaining your thought process on this? Not bashing at all, just want to learn more.
Don’t take opposing comments as bashing. Everyone is entitled to there opinion. When someone comes and rocks the boat of conformability folks tend to attack with a closed mind based on what they know, which may or may not be accurate.

Most of my comments are going to be based on the 05+ SD60 however there is a tremendous amount of overlap to the <05 axles.

The short side is really short. Not much room for anything till you start cutting the center away. More than one person has cut into the tube by accident and welding that cut isn’t real effective. Have seen a number of broken short sides. Cut tube ? Not enough engagement with the center ? Center not strong enough after cutting ?

The center’s position is often in the way of things like track bar mounts and frame rails on compression. Often the DS angle from the TC output would be better if the center (pinion) was moved towards the passenger side a bit. ***short side is so short***

Overall width is another. Though that is a trade off. To achieve a decent Scrub Radius you need wheels with plenty of backspacing. Steering angle may or may not be compromised with the wheel/tire getting into things it shouldn’t.

The axles I’ve worked with have measured out to have 9-10* of separation from caster to pinion angle. In more than one instance pinion angle has been compromised to achieve decent (6*+) caster. A lockout on the hubs fixes the speed issue on the road. While a moderate speed on the driveshaft with the hubs locked up ends up being the only way around the DS `s crappy angles. Because you’re stuck with what the Ford Dana or is it Dana Ford specs are.

IF you know what your doing welding to the knuckles can be done successfully. Problem is the resulting steering geometry has no Ackerman and parallel steering at best. The location of the DL on the knuckle can limit the steering angle as well. It been tough for many to get the TB and DL the same angle much less the same length.

How about the steering stops ? You want adjustable positive stops to avoid breaking things.

The upper BJ has been an issue with a number of wheelers. Several folks are making kits to fix it but none of them are really end all fixes.

The offset heims for the TR to clear the diff cover are another band aid. A few folks have been able to modify the diff cover with a notch but that is not the norm. TR droop and roll is often the reward of making everything clear.

The 1480 and 1550 joints are not much different in capacity. The 1550 is larger in order to accommodate more steering angle but according to Dana Spicer they are only fractionally stronger than the 1480.

Yes the buy in is cheap. Working around all the “issues” depends a lot on your ability and ambition. Doesn’t take long and your “cheap” JY axle starts eating up serious cash.

Rather buy a bare center (with or without tubes) and build an axle to meet my needs. Can set the pinion angle(s) where they need to be. More leeway in positioning the center left to right so it plays nice with things like TB mounts and frames. Crank in whatever caster I want. Take advantage of the improved steering geometry. Set the width to whatever it should be. The ability to use shafts from places like Branik or SpiderTrax that have a lot of great features over standard designs.

More expensive ? Depends on a lot of factors, including perceived value in performance and capability.

Running Currie RJ`s front and rear stuffed with SpiderTrax shafts and outers plus Blaine Johnson brakes. Bought bare housings. Machined/pressed in my own tubes and built the axles from there. They fit, they work and in the end the investment was worth the money.

YMMV but that’s my take on all this.

If I had to do it over again the only thing I **might** change is the Reid S60 outers.... Maybe....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,071 Posts
Don’t take opposing comments as bashing. Everyone is entitled to there opinion. When someone comes and rocks the boat of conformability folks tend to attack with a closed mind based on what they know, which may or may not be accurate.

Most of my comments are going to be based on the 05+ SD60 however there is a tremendous amount of overlap to the <05 axles.

The short side is really short. Not much room for anything till you start cutting the center away. More than one person has cut into the tube by accident and welding that cut isn’t real effective. Have seen a number of broken short sides. Cut tube ? Not enough engagement with the center ? Center not strong enough after cutting ?

The center’s position is often in the way of things like track bar mounts and frame rails on compression. Often the DS angle from the TC output would be better if the center (pinion) was moved towards the passenger side a bit. ***short side is so short***

Overall width is another. Though that is a trade off. To achieve a decent Scrub Radius you need wheels with plenty of backspacing. Steering angle may or may not be compromised with the wheel/tire getting into things it shouldn’t.

The axles I’ve worked with have measured out to have 9-10* of separation from caster to pinion angle. In more than one instance pinion angle has been compromised to achieve decent (6*+) caster. A lockout on the hubs fixes the speed issue on the road. While a moderate speed on the driveshaft with the hubs locked up ends up being the only way around the DS `s crappy angles. Because you’re stuck with what the Ford Dana or is it Dana Ford specs are.

IF you know what your doing welding to the knuckles can be done successfully. Problem is the resulting steering geometry has no Ackerman and parallel steering at best. The location of the DL on the knuckle can limit the steering angle as well. It been tough for many to get the TB and DL the same angle much less the same length.

How about the steering stops ? You want adjustable positive stops to avoid breaking things.

The upper BJ has been an issue with a number of wheelers. Several folks are making kits to fix it but none of them are really end all fixes.

The offset heims for the TR to clear the diff cover are another band aid. A few folks have been able to modify the diff cover with a notch but that is not the norm. TR droop and roll is often the reward of making everything clear.

The 1480 and 1550 joints are not much different in capacity. The 1550 is larger in order to accommodate more steering angle but according to Dana Spicer they are only fractionally stronger than the 1480.

Yes the buy in is cheap. Working around all the “issues” depends a lot on your ability and ambition. Doesn’t take long and your “cheap” JY axle starts eating up serious cash.

Rather buy a bare center (with or without tubes) and build an axle to meet my needs. Can set the pinion angle(s) where they need to be. More leeway in positioning the center left to right so it plays nice with things like TB mounts and frames. Crank in whatever caster I want. Take advantage of the improved steering geometry. Set the width to whatever it should be. The ability to use shafts from places like Branik or SpiderTrax that have a lot of great features over standard designs.

More expensive ? Depends on a lot of factors, including perceived value in performance and capability.

Running Currie RJ`s front and rear stuffed with SpiderTrax shafts and outers plus Blaine Johnson brakes. Bought bare housings. Machined/pressed in my own tubes and built the axles from there. They fit, they work and in the end the investment was worth the money.

YMMV but that’s my take on all this.

If I had to do it over again the only thing I **might** change is the Reid S60 outers.... Maybe....
All for the low low price of 5-10k:rolleyes: good job:laughing: my sd axle will cost me no more than 2k with a truss to negate the short side tube problems... it's not in everyone's budget to spend 10k on a single axle, let alone a whole stage of building a TRAIL rig that won't likely see much road time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,777 Posts
The truss you speak of doesn’t negate the the short side problems. In fact it’s the start of the downward slide.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,129 Posts
so I am about to do this with an '05 axle. I am toying with the weld on kits....artec, JHF, barnes, etc.....I feel lik artec has the best kit from looking at the design.

Also considering just a straight tie rod with offset heims in a nearly stock location, or even bent tierod with normal heims, in a nearly stock location....I dont need massive high steer, just above the knuckle mount. Considering rasing it say 1" or so above the knuckle and double shearing the heims.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,777 Posts
Consider the Reid 05 passenger knuckle...which is a copy of the factory Dana Ford/Ford Diana .... instead of weldon’s. Pick a HS arm that you can machine the DL pivot to. This will help address your steering angle.

Fusion 4x4 has a TR that captures the cast arm on the knuckles.

If you look at the pictures of the JHF weld on’s you can clearly see how the TR mounts. A position that is common with all the weld on kits and one that really messes with your steering.

If it’s a trail only rig than weld away and make stuff fit. The dirt and the speeds don’t care.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
109 Posts
machined is only way to go. buddy has had 2 weld on's fail. first one i welded and just preheated and mig welded and cooled. second one was preheated and welded with nickle rod by ticketed welder and cooled. both only had few runs on them and failed. hes running machined and keyed now and no issues
99-04 knuckles are cast iron and is a poor candidate for welding. The 05+ knuckle are cast steel and will take to welding much better. That said the artec arms I feel have the best design since they have much more welded surface area and gusseting to spread the load across the knuckle. I haven't come across or seen any pictures of a failed 05+ weld on high steer. Fusion 4x4s solution for these is very nice and the way I would go if doing it over again.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,129 Posts
Consider the Reid 05 passenger knuckle...which is a copy of the factory Dana Ford/Ford Diana .... instead of weldon’s. Pick a HS arm that you can machine the DL pivot to. This will help address your steering angle.

Fusion 4x4 has a TR that captures the cast arm on the knuckles.

If you look at the pictures of the JHF weld on’s you can clearly see how the TR mounts. A position that is common with all the weld on kits and one that really messes with your steering.

If it’s a trail only rig than weld away and make stuff fit. The dirt and the speeds don’t care.


this is trail only.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
622 Posts
Don’t take opposing comments as bashing. Everyone is entitled to there opinion. When someone comes and rocks the boat of conformability folks tend to attack with a closed mind based on what they know, which may or may not be accurate.

Most of my comments are going to be based on the 05+ SD60 however there is a tremendous amount of overlap to the <05 axles.

The short side is really short. Not much room for anything till you start cutting the center away. More than one person has cut into the tube by accident and welding that cut isn’t real effective. Have seen a number of broken short sides. Cut tube ? Not enough engagement with the center ? Center not strong enough after cutting ?

The center’s position is often in the way of things like track bar mounts and frame rails on compression. Often the DS angle from the TC output would be better if the center (pinion) was moved towards the passenger side a bit. ***short side is so short***

Overall width is another. Though that is a trade off. To achieve a decent Scrub Radius you need wheels with plenty of backspacing. Steering angle may or may not be compromised with the wheel/tire getting into things it shouldn’t.

The axles I’ve worked with have measured out to have 9-10* of separation from caster to pinion angle. In more than one instance pinion angle has been compromised to achieve decent (6*+) caster. A lockout on the hubs fixes the speed issue on the road. While a moderate speed on the driveshaft with the hubs locked up ends up being the only way around the DS `s crappy angles. Because you’re stuck with what the Ford Dana or is it Dana Ford specs are.

IF you know what your doing welding to the knuckles can be done successfully. Problem is the resulting steering geometry has no Ackerman and parallel steering at best. The location of the DL on the knuckle can limit the steering angle as well. It been tough for many to get the TB and DL the same angle much less the same length.

How about the steering stops ? You want adjustable positive stops to avoid breaking things.

The upper BJ has been an issue with a number of wheelers. Several folks are making kits to fix it but none of them are really end all fixes.

The offset heims for the TR to clear the diff cover are another band aid. A few folks have been able to modify the diff cover with a notch but that is not the norm. TR droop and roll is often the reward of making everything clear.

The 1480 and 1550 joints are not much different in capacity. The 1550 is larger in order to accommodate more steering angle but according to Dana Spicer they are only fractionally stronger than the 1480.

Yes the buy in is cheap. Working around all the “issues” depends a lot on your ability and ambition. Doesn’t take long and your “cheap” JY axle starts eating up serious cash.

Rather buy a bare center (with or without tubes) and build an axle to meet my needs. Can set the pinion angle(s) where they need to be. More leeway in positioning the center left to right so it plays nice with things like TB mounts and frames. Crank in whatever caster I want. Take advantage of the improved steering geometry. Set the width to whatever it should be. The ability to use shafts from places like Branik or SpiderTrax that have a lot of great features over standard designs.

More expensive ? Depends on a lot of factors, including perceived value in performance and capability.

Running Currie RJ`s front and rear stuffed with SpiderTrax shafts and outers plus Blaine Johnson brakes. Bought bare housings. Machined/pressed in my own tubes and built the axles from there. They fit, they work and in the end the investment was worth the money.

YMMV but that’s my take on all this.

If I had to do it over again the only thing I **might** change is the Reid S60 outers.... Maybe....
Sooo, basically you're saying the pumkin isn't in the right place and the C's are clocked wrong for your application.

Here's what I did :

Buy 2 05+ axles for $500 each.

Press out the tubes so I can work with 2 long tubes. Shorten both to my desired length (in order to provide for the width and pinion location I wanted).

Install C's to provide my desired caster angle.

Add FourwheelSupply steering arms (which do keep akerman, unlike the weld on units) and let you put your tie rods higher so you don't have any issue of them contacting the diff cover

Sell all the left over parts from both stock axles (R&Ps, stock shafts, stock brakes) for $500.

Total is a pass drop HP60 with the strongest center section, C's and knuckles that are available from a stock axle that cost me about $500.


I understand that buying all new name brand shit is cool. The products themselves are great. But my solution let's you realise the exact same thing for a tenth of the budget without any strength compromise.

You can use shafts from Spidertrax, Branik etc the same way.


Also, I've worked with a bunch of 60s. About all the different versions. The 05+ stuff is, by far, the beefiest and strongest 60 variant that is out there.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,071 Posts
The truss you speak of doesn’t negate the the short side problems. In fact it’s the start of the downward slide.
Nice try.... I'm not talking about a link truss. A true truss goes below the tube and attaches to the inners. If i was spending your money I'd definitely buy all the bling parts and build the baddest axle set ever, then probably have a pair exactly same on the floor just in case:flipoff2: what you're suggesting isn't in reach of most here and definitely not what the OP asked about:rolleyes:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,777 Posts
Sooo, basically you're saying the pumkin isn't in the right place and the C's are clocked wrong for your application.

Here's what I did :

Buy 2 05+ axles for $500 each.

Press out the tubes so I can work with 2 long tubes. Shorten both to my desired length (in order to provide for the width and pinion location I wanted).

Install C's to provide my desired caster angle.

Add FourwheelSupply steering arms (which do keep akerman, unlike the weld on units) and let you put your tie rods higher so you don't have any issue of them contacting the diff cover

Sell all the left over parts from both stock axles (R&Ps, stock shafts, stock brakes) for $500.

Total is a pass drop HP60 with the strongest center section, C's and knuckles that are available from a stock axle that cost me about $500.


I understand that buying all new name brand shit is cool. The products themselves are great. But my solution let's you realise the exact same thing for a tenth of the budget without any strength compromise.

You can use shafts from Spidertrax, Branik etc the same way.


Also, I've worked with a bunch of 60s. About all the different versions. The 05+ stuff is, by far, the beefiest and strongest 60 variant that is out there.


Last edited by Bebop; Today at 11:01 AM.


Home run here !!
Your approaching this whole axle business much differently than the vast majority of folks. :grinpimp:

Not many even think about retubing much less have the ability to do so. Your taking advantage of beefy products and making them fit your rig and your specs. All with a good ROI which just adds to the whole scenario. :grinpimp:

Way back when I had access to a waterjet cutting machine. We would jet the plug welds and push the tubes out. Similar to what your doing. Than build the axle around the rig.

Sadly it seems most folks don't even bother fabbing something like this up anymore. :(
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,777 Posts
Nice try.... I'm not talking about a link truss. A true truss goes below the tube and attaches to the inners. If i was spending your money I'd definitely buy all the bling parts and build the baddest axle set ever, then probably have a pair exactly same on the floor just in case:flipoff2: what you're suggesting isn't in reach of most here and definitely not what the OP asked about:rolleyes:
Its not worth arguing about. At the end of the day you will have your axle and I`ll have mine. Not getting dragged into any debates. I`m happy and confident with how my axles are built. Like I said YMMV.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,071 Posts
Its not worth arguing about. At the end of the day you will have your axle and I`ll have mine. Not getting dragged into any debates. I`m happy and confident with how my axles are built. Like I said YMMV.
What are you talking about??? You dragged yourself into it talking about a completely aftermarket axle when the question was about a stock axle with high steer :laughing:
 
21 - 40 of 79 Posts
Top