Got a kick ass new job that actually pays decent, and I'm going to start wrenching on my truck again. I'm going to order my 5.29's and spool soon, and wondering what you guys recommend for rebuilding my 3rds. I've helped set up a few Sammy and 9" 3rds, but this will be my 1st attempt at rebuilding 3rd members. What tools do I need besides a dial indicator. I was going to just get my bearings removed and pressed by the pro's (unless anyone has tips on how I can do it myself). Thanks y'all <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">
Solid spacer vs. Crush sleeve
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I think the consensus is to use a crush sleeve. But to use the Toyota crush sleeve not the cheap aftermarket ones.
Here is the difference on the solid spacer and crush sleeve.
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As quoted from Jay Kopycinski in the 4X4WIRE article.
"I prefer to use factory Toyota crush sleeves that appear seamless and are about 0.078" thick. I do not like the welded seam aftermarket ones and have seen them as thin as about 0.050" thick."
Here is the difference on the solid spacer and crush sleeve.
As quoted from Jay Kopycinski in the 4X4WIRE article.
"I prefer to use factory Toyota crush sleeves that appear seamless and are about 0.078" thick. I do not like the welded seam aftermarket ones and have seen them as thin as about 0.050" thick."
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4,995 Posts
just out of curiosity, how are other diffs set up; d60, d44, corporates, 9". with crush sleeves or solid or...?
probably in reality there is little chance of a crush sleeve failing, and even if it did i dont think it would create enough tolerance to grenade the 3rd immediately, however that is just one more thing to break.
probably in reality there is little chance of a crush sleeve failing, and even if it did i dont think it would create enough tolerance to grenade the 3rd immediately, however that is just one more thing to break.
Again - what do you base this on??? Did you read thre article by Jay? <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0">
Think of it like this. use a bolt as your pinion. The bolt head is the pinion head. put a washer on there to simulate one bearing, then install a tube spacer to simputae the crush sleeve/solid spacer, then another washer to be the other bearing, then tighten the nut down.
Now, the nut on the end just set the maximum distance the washers can be from each other - correct? So tell me how it matters what is between them...
Same goes for the setup of the pinion on Toyotas. I could care less what you use between the bearings, it is irrelevant as to hopw far the bearings can move away from each other (since the races are fixed postion, this would be the only way the pinion could get sloppy).
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the spacers is spacing the bearings from each other, and has nothing to do with the races. i am not debating, but say you set a crush sleeve and its overall length ends up at 3.250, with new bearings etc. well as the bearing wears it creates tolerances in the race/bearing relation. then if by some chance you were to hit the flange on a rock, that blast could push the outer bearing in and take up that tolerance created by wear, thus shortening the crush sleeve to like 3.245 or something, which could in turn create pinion slop and improper wear.
and by the way thanks for answering my question before attacking my intelligence. <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0">
[ 09-05-2001: Message edited by: gnob ]
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I'm quoting myself from the other thread.
"When you over tighten the pinion nut and crush the crush sleeve too far, why do you have to use a new one? Why not just back the nut off till the bearings have the right preload? I mean, if its ok to run it this way if you hit the flange hard enound to damage the crush sleeve, then why not when your installing it? Could it maybe be the fact that you've lost the compression on your inner race? Shoot, why use one at all? I bet it's those f**king parts suppliers just screwing use for more money. Who cares if you spin an inner race on you pinion? Who cares about a little misalignment in the ring and pinion? Heck, taking a little extra time and doing it the right way just takes away from your wheeling time anyway? Can you get away with using a crush sleeve? Sure, they've been using them for years. It's definately quicker to set up, as long as you don't overtighten and have to run back to the parts store to get another one. For me, I'll use the solid spacer."
"When you over tighten the pinion nut and crush the crush sleeve too far, why do you have to use a new one? Why not just back the nut off till the bearings have the right preload? I mean, if its ok to run it this way if you hit the flange hard enound to damage the crush sleeve, then why not when your installing it? Could it maybe be the fact that you've lost the compression on your inner race? Shoot, why use one at all? I bet it's those f**king parts suppliers just screwing use for more money. Who cares if you spin an inner race on you pinion? Who cares about a little misalignment in the ring and pinion? Heck, taking a little extra time and doing it the right way just takes away from your wheeling time anyway? Can you get away with using a crush sleeve? Sure, they've been using them for years. It's definately quicker to set up, as long as you don't overtighten and have to run back to the parts store to get another one. For me, I'll use the solid spacer."
Originally posted by gnob:
the spacers is spacing the bearings from each other, and has nothing to do with the races.
Incorrect - the races set the distance between the bearings. If you set the distance with the spacer, then the bearings would not be fully seated.
i am not debating, but say you set a crush sleeve and its overall length ends up at 3.250, with new bearings etc. well as the bearing wears it creates tolerances in the race/bearing relation.
Correct.
then if by some chance you were to hit the flange on a rock, that blast could push the outer bearing in and take up that tolerance created by wear, thus shortening the crush sleeve to like 3.245 or something, which could in turn create pinion slop and improper wear.
IMHO - again, incorrect. If you hit the flange, it will try to push the entire pinion shaft "inward" and can only go as far as the outer pinion will go into the race.. because the outer bearing can only go in as far as it could go before you hit it since the pinion nut won';t let it go in further.
and by the way thanks for answering my question before attacking my intelligence. <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0">
I simply asked you where you got your info - I did not attack your inteligence. Grow up and either learn to explain yourself or keep quiet on things you aren't so sure about <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> (that's a joke in case you miss it <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0"> )
[ 09-05-2001: Message edited by: DeeAreEmm ]
the spacers is spacing the bearings from each other, and has nothing to do with the races.
Incorrect - the races set the distance between the bearings. If you set the distance with the spacer, then the bearings would not be fully seated.
i am not debating, but say you set a crush sleeve and its overall length ends up at 3.250, with new bearings etc. well as the bearing wears it creates tolerances in the race/bearing relation.
Correct.
then if by some chance you were to hit the flange on a rock, that blast could push the outer bearing in and take up that tolerance created by wear, thus shortening the crush sleeve to like 3.245 or something, which could in turn create pinion slop and improper wear.
IMHO - again, incorrect. If you hit the flange, it will try to push the entire pinion shaft "inward" and can only go as far as the outer pinion will go into the race.. because the outer bearing can only go in as far as it could go before you hit it since the pinion nut won';t let it go in further.
and by the way thanks for answering my question before attacking my intelligence. <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0">
I simply asked you where you got your info - I did not attack your inteligence. Grow up and either learn to explain yourself or keep quiet on things you aren't so sure about <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> (that's a joke in case you miss it <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0"> )
[ 09-05-2001: Message edited by: DeeAreEmm ]
The point is, nobody can explain WHY the solid spacer is "the right way". You sure didn't in your post, all I saw were generalizations and regurgitations of what the so-called "experts" have said...
But hey - if you can explain to me all the claims you made in that post, please do - Myself (and several others) are still looking for someone who can...
IMHO, you use a spacer or crush sleeve "at all" for just a couple of reasons. One is as Jay says in his article - for innitial preload setup. I also feel the sleeve/spacer is there so that as the bearings wear, they are kept "square" with each other, to keep them from wobbling in the races and wearing/failing even faster.
But that is just what I *think* it helps do...
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alright then let me ask you this:
if it CANNOT happen, why do people say it does?
not only that, what causes bearing preload, how hard the bearing is loaded against the race, correct, therefore if the bearings is closer or farther in relation to the race the preload will change, and since the crush sleeve deterimines preload, then wouldnt that mean it also determines the distance between bearing even if at such a small extent?
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1,988 Posts
When you tighten the nut, your pushing against the flange, which in turn pushes against the inner race of the outer pinion bearing, which pushes against the spacer/sleeve, which pushes against the inner race of the inner pinion bearing, which pushes against the shims, then the pinion. Since the outer bearing is not a friction or interferance fit, but a slip fit, if you over crush the crush sleeve by hitting the flange, you lose the compression on the inner race of the outer bearing. The race is being pinched between the flange and the spacer/sleeve. This will let the race spin on the pinion shaft. Do I need to explain further than this? Or is it still too general? Or am I not using my 20+ years as a mechanic and just repeating what some one else said? If your just using your rig on the street or mild wheeling (not implying anything <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> ) then by all means use the crush sleeve. But I also beleave that "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure". I like to give myself every edge in playing hard, and getting home.
Originally posted by BrianR:
if you over crush the crush sleeve by hitting the flange,
Again - please explain how this is possible. I just don't see the evidence that this is a possibility...
you lose the compression on the inner race of the outer bearing. The race is being pinched between the flange and the spacer/sleeve. This will let the race spin on the pinion shaft.
What does the inner race spinning have to do with anything?
Do I need to explain further than this? Or is it still too general? Or am I not using my 20+ years as a mechanic and just repeating what some one else said?
So far, your entire theory is based on the first thing I question you about above... show me how that can happen and the rest falls into place...
If your just using your rig on the street or mild wheeling (not implying anything <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> ) then by all means use the crush sleeve. But I also beleave that "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure". I like to give myself every edge in playing hard, and getting home.
Again, all of this is based on the assumption that the solid spacer is better, and I still have't seen anyone show how this "hit it in a rock and loosen the crush sleeve" theory is even possible.
if you over crush the crush sleeve by hitting the flange,
Again - please explain how this is possible. I just don't see the evidence that this is a possibility...
you lose the compression on the inner race of the outer bearing. The race is being pinched between the flange and the spacer/sleeve. This will let the race spin on the pinion shaft.
What does the inner race spinning have to do with anything?
Do I need to explain further than this? Or is it still too general? Or am I not using my 20+ years as a mechanic and just repeating what some one else said?
So far, your entire theory is based on the first thing I question you about above... show me how that can happen and the rest falls into place...
If your just using your rig on the street or mild wheeling (not implying anything <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> ) then by all means use the crush sleeve. But I also beleave that "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure". I like to give myself every edge in playing hard, and getting home.
Again, all of this is based on the assumption that the solid spacer is better, and I still have't seen anyone show how this "hit it in a rock and loosen the crush sleeve" theory is even possible.
The same reason the rest of the internet "expert advice" gets tossed around - people hear someone say something once, and they just keep passing it on and eventually nobody questions the informaiton, they just accept it as "gospel"...
For the longest time everyone said you need "V6 calipers" for the vented rotor swap... I told people for months that any truck after 90 be it 4 cylinder or V6 had the same calipers... but because All Pro said it on their site (just an example, not blaming All Pro at all) poeple told me I was wrong... did they check? No... they just heard a "reputable source" tell them and they believed it to be true...
All I ask is that you take a lok at WHY you think one is better - and if all you have to go on is what someone one told you and you have not looked into it yourself... then as far as I am concerned that is nothing more than "junk science"...
I know very little about this subject, but let me ask.. If you take a diff and bang the flange against the floor perpendicular to the pinion... will the crush sleeve compress more? <IMG SRC="smilies/confused.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/confused.gif" border="0">
If so, I can see how this might happen on the trail... At least to a small degree.
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like brian said, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
and i have actually looked at it myself after this thread came up last time, i have a bare pinion with bearing and sleeve in the garage, and when i look at the bearings THEY are contacing the sleeve not the race. if you look at how the bearing sits in the race there is a face that sits through the opening in the race and contacts the sleeve, therefore having the bearing in direct contact with the sleeve. which means if it were to be contacted in some way, it could in fact effect the sleeve.
which means like i said before, if the nut doesnt loosen up, then yes likelyness of explosions is not likely, but if there is extra slop created there, that will create the extra wear and premature failure of parts.
another example i go with this is i had a bearing go out in my rear end with solid spacer, well i had gone throuhg a couple seals like in a two week period with all on road, well the second one i put in i noticed end play in the pinion, which i figured was excessive and it went to the shop where they told me the bearing was wasted. that slop was created because as the bearing wore it made more and more play, and was allowing the pinion to flex and burn that seal quickly. the same theory applies to the sleeve and damaging it.
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