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Discussion Starter #1
Just a passing curiosity caused by late night sleeplessness, what would be the consequences of the following?:

Say a person owned an AR that was legally SBR'd. And he had the upper seperated from the lower as he was cleaning it. Now during cleaning the owner suffered a heart attack and died leaving the upper and lower apart. The grieving widow waits the customary 5 mins for mourning and then sells the upper and lower separately NOT knowing the parts went together or even the implications of SBR-ing a rifle. A person buys the lower unaware that it was from a SBR build and slams a legal 16" upper on it. The upper gets sold to a person who is building a pistol, so no worries there. Since the lower gets sold in a F2F transfer and is never reported stolen it doesn't get on a stolen firearms list. And for the question: If the new owner gets stopped for a traffic violation while the lower with a legal upper is in the car, what are the consequences? The cop runs the serial number, does it come up clean OR does ANYONE other than the ATF have access to the registry? And would any law be broken as the owner would not be in possession of an actual SBR?

As I said this is just "failsafe" instance of wonderment brought forth by insomnia. The current firearms laws are so convoluted that I often consider what would happen in weird situation.
 

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My understanding is that if it does not have an barrel of less than 16" on it, it is not an SBR, regardless of its registry status.
 

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are both the upper and lower serialized? I believe functional configuration is what matters, as long as it meets legal requirements it should be just fine. It's just like the magazine capacity laws in certain states, the frame may be capable of taking a 30rnd mag but the owner has legal 10rnd mags for it, therefore it is legal under the law. If a 30rnd mag were there it would be illegal.
 

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Surgical Shotgunner
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there is no serial number to "run" on the gun, for one thing. not that the cop could do from a data base in his car. a trace would have to be initiated directly to the NFA branch, which would probably not happen, since the firearm is in a non-NFA configuration and why would he think it should be?

if its not in SBR configuration, its not an SBR.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
My understanding is that if it does not have an barrel of less than 16" on it, it is not an SBR, regardless of its registry status.
are both the upper and lower serialized? I believe functional configuration is what matters, as long as it meets legal requirements it should be just fine. It's just like the magazine capacity laws in certain states, the frame may be capable of taking a 30rnd mag but the owner has legal 10rnd mags for it, therefore it is legal under the law. If a 30rnd mag were there it would be illegal.
The thread discussing turning a lower that might have come from a rifle into a pistol is what caused me to think about shit like this.

Thanks for indulging me...:laughing:
 

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Surgical Shotgunner
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The thread discussing turning a lower that might have come from a rifle into a pistol is what caused me to think about shit like this.

Thanks for indulging me...:laughing:
even then, a LEO will not know what the gun "started" as or what transferred as on the 4473. They would have to confiscate, then do a trace on the gun etc. This might happen if you are arrested for drugs or some other stuff and they take your guns in a traffic stop too.

if its in 16" configuration, the cop sees you're not a felon and you are legally able to own a gun and are complying with your state and local laws, I dont see how it could be an issue.
 

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Oddly, I just went through this with a friend. He bought a Sig AR from someone and was very proud....until he brought it over to show me and I explained that it was an SBR (hell, the lower was even stamped Pistol!)....he had no clue whatsoever, the owner never disclosed anything, etc. Fortunately I had a pistol buffer sitting around so fixed it for him on the spot, but I explained to him that if he had gotten pulled over it could have ended VERY BADLY!!!:eek:
 

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Oddly, I just went through this with a friend. He bought a Sig AR from someone and was very proud....until he brought it over to show me and I explained that it was an SBR (hell, the lower was even stamped Pistol!)....he had no clue whatsoever, the owner never disclosed anything, etc. Fortunately I had a pistol buffer sitting around so fixed it for him on the spot, but I explained to him that if he had gotten pulled over it could have ended VERY BADLY!!!:eek:
Sure it wasnt the sig pistol stabilizer brace thing? THAT is BATFE legal.
 

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Oddly, I just went through this with a friend. He bought a Sig AR from someone and was very proud....until he brought it over to show me and I explained that it was an SBR (hell, the lower was even stamped Pistol!)....he had no clue whatsoever, the owner never disclosed anything, etc. Fortunately I had a pistol buffer sitting around so fixed it for him on the spot, but I explained to him that if he had gotten pulled over it could have ended VERY BADLY!!!:eek:
I imagine that there are a LOT of unregistered SBRs out there due to ignorance. Probably far more than there are due to a willful flaunting of the law. Just one more reason it is a stupid law.
 

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Funny aside story.

I do a lot of gun shows. One day a guy comes up and is super excited to buy a 7.5" upper from me. Asks me a lot of questions, genuinely interested and nice guy. He chooses one he likes and pays. After he pays he says "I can't wait to get home and turn my AR into an SBR without the government knowing!"

Whoa buddy. I think he's running a sting operation for the ATF. I explain exactly how the upper should be installed legally, but frankly, what he did with it was his business.


Fast forward a month later.

I'm at the walmarte' walking by my truck. A white tacoma pulls up really fast, like he's gonna hit me, and parks in the middle of the street. Out jumps that same guy.

Oh shit.

He starts yelling at me saying he talked to his "federal agent" friend and he told him that what I sold him needed a tax stamp. Also I was selling illegal firearms and to stop doing that.

Furthermore, he said "I never bought anything from you. You don't know me. This never happened."

I was so dumbfounded I couldn't even respond. I took a deep breath and thourghly explained the laws regarding NFA, AR pistols and intent regarding AR uppers. All with a Tacoma bumper against my knee. Where he parked it.

I then explained, many times, how his "federal agent friend" was "Fucking retarded in the brain" and should learn federal firearm laws before committing libel.

The guy said "oh? Well..... umm..... ..................... see you at the next gun show!"

And drove off.


The end.
 

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I'm not your buddeh
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*shaking* I cant tell you how many times I have people come up to the gun counter at work and start spouting off about how they have a buddy who will mill out the lower and convert their AR15 to an M16 yadda yadda yadda.

All the while I am standing there shaking my head. I might make an attempt or two to educate them.... but after getting a redirect to his same statements, I just shut up and listen while he makes a fool out of himself.
 

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Surgical Shotgunner
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in my experience, the biggest perpetrators of false information about guns and gun laws are gun store employees, non-federal LEOs, and COD/gamer/airsoft tacticool gun morons, in that order.
 

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I drilled and reamed a 14.5 inch AR barrel and installed a FSB for an acquaintance (UPS shipping center guy). When I returned it to him I let him know that I don't normally do 14.5" barrels unless I'm either pinning and welding a flash hider or they give me the pistol lower they are using. It keeps us both honest and keeps me from getting visits and/or questions from Feds.

He then tells me "oh, I'm going to pin and weld it at home." I flat out said: "You can't install a FSB yourself (I had told him I'd lend him the bits and reamer), but you can drill pin and weld a flash hider?"

He gave me a kind of shitty grin and I just shook my head.


Another guy I know (a machinist) showed me his glock conversion parts...At least he had enough sense to use them once and then tell me that he was destroying them. Plausible deniability.
 
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